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    United States Pledge of Allegiance

    I didnt know the history behind it. The Nazi like Salute has changed today I belive. Pledging allegiance to the state is pretty socialistic idea.



    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails United States Pledge of Allegiance-pledgeus.jpg   United States Pledge of Allegiance-original_pledge_salute.jpg  

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    Looks photoshopped. I have never seen a school or heard of one giving a seig hail sign. As for the pledge, I am sure it has socialist connotations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mesomorphyl
    Looks photoshopped. I have never seen a school or heard of one giving a seig hail sign.
    I can guarantee you the are not photoshopped and are authentic. That is how Americans pledged allegiance to the flag back in the day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CAUSASIAN
    I can guarantee you the are not photoshopped and are authentic. That is how Americans pledged allegiance to the flag back in the day.
    So you are saying after nazi's started doing that americans wanted to stay away from that as they twisted it as much as the swastika?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mesomorphyl
    So you are saying after nazi's started doing that americans wanted to stay away from that as they twisted it as much as the swastika?
    Yes. I am not attacking anything. It was something interesting I learned, and thought I would share.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CAUSASIAN
    Yes. I am not attacking anything. It was something interesting I learned, and thought I would share.
    Thanks, I will take your word then.

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    Christian for sure shouldn't say the pledge......totally wrong

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    what, in the pledge of allegiance, is so bad? i find nothing wrong with the pledge. its nothing but good. there is nothing saying to "worship" the flag. or put it before God. its basically saying to remember our flag and what it represents, and remember what we as a nation have done to be able to have our flag. it is simply a patriotic symbol representing our fine country.

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    p.s. and what, in the pledge, could be construed as socialistic? considering socialism is government control of the economy/industry.

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    First, pledging allegiance to a flag can be, again can be, shaped into whatever nationalist thought a country can spin on it. I am not saying it is bad but has the potential for it. Look at the german swastikas in the mid 30's.

    Next the pledge was pushed after the new deal, FDR was a socialist, and public school systems were partially funded from outside sources. Tax exempt foundations owned by the elite establishment who helped guide curriculums. They pressed for control over education to integrate socialism and it actually lowered american standards. How many americans know the constitution? It is skimmed now days. Sad but true. My resources on this information is in the Naked Capitalist, Tax free foundations, dope inc., and an overview of each of these can be found in a book called " How the world really works " by Alan B. Jones... Check that one out it also covers other books as well and is a great read.
    Last edited by Mesomorphyl; 09-24-2005 at 11:56 PM. Reason: Pledge came out in 1892

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    Quote Originally Posted by MASTERDBOL
    what, in the pledge of allegiance, is so bad?.
    The two words "UNDER GOD."

    Consider that under the US Constitution guarantee of freedom of religion, the government can not require people to say if they beleive in God or not. When the government makes school attendance compulsory for kids, and then the school board makes reciting the Pledge compulsory, it requires children to state that they beleive in God, which is a big no-no.
    Maybe you don't mind giving the government the right to make people say if they are religious or not, but I don't think it's any of the government's business.

    Some school boards allow children to opt-out of reciting the Pledge by letting them either leave the room while the other kids say it, but this sort of thing was considered to be coercive by the Supreme Court in 1963. They ruled that children do not have to identify themselves to government officials as not wanting to participate in uttering religious things (sort of like you don't have to identify yourself to government officials as wanting to attend a Babtist or Catholic church before you are allowed to go). They also said that young kids were not sufficiently autonomous or mature enough to be able to resist peer pressure and the need to "be like the other kids."

    Pretty much, it's a question of whether or not it's the proper place of government to foster religious speech. IMHO, all I want the gov't to do is build roads and fix potholes. Religion should be left to the private sector.

    -Tock

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    tock, i think masterdbol was referring to why the pledge is wrong for christians that badgerman posted (correct me if im wrong). not whether the "under god" should be a part of the pledge and said by atheists' children..

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    Quote Originally Posted by CAUSASIAN
    I can guarantee you the are not photoshopped and are authentic. That is how Americans pledged allegiance to the flag back in the day.
    i've heard that before

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    must have been before my grandparents time...heh.

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    everything you do to support america is wrong now


    bullshit, these ppl need to move the fuuck out of a country they obviously hate so much

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    Quote Originally Posted by Decadbal
    everything you do to support america is wrong now


    bullshit, these ppl need to move the fuuck out of a country they obviously hate so much
    AMEN!!! anti-america nonsense is getting outta hand. if i lived in argentina, and hated everything about the country....i'd move the hell out of there!!! pretty simple!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    tock, i think masterdbol was referring to why the pledge is wrong for christians that badgerman posted (correct me if im wrong). not whether the "under god" should be a part of the pledge and said by atheists' children..
    Makes no difference, really.

    Since public schools are administered by government officials and government employees, and are funded by taxpayers obliged to fund them under the laws of the secular government, then those public schools are required to abide by the laws and Constitution of the USA. And not only is the government prohibited from inquiring into the religious beleifs of unbeleivers, but it is similarly prohibited from asking Christians about their religious opinions as well.

    So, it makes no difference if only Christians are obliged to recite "under god" in the morning Pledge and atheists are excused. Government officials have no more business dabbling in religious phrases than they have in posting Ouija boards in school classrooms and requiring every student to learn how to operate them . . .

    Besides, if parents REALLY were concerned about this sort of thing, they'd say the Pledge of Allegience followed by a prayer with their children before they went to school every morning. But how often do you see that happen?

    -Tock

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    Quote Originally Posted by MASTERDBOL
    AMEN!!! anti-america nonsense is getting outta hand.
    What "anti-america nonsense?"
    -Tock

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    I wrote this in another thread... Obviously MASTERDBOL and Decadbal must have missed it or had on their nationalist blinders on... without further adue:

    Isn't it funny how misguided americans say "move away if you dont like it", just because we follow our founding fathers principles of questioning government motives or actually want some accountability with those that we give the privilage to serve our nation. Speak up and you are unamerican, have a different view and you are not patriotic, prove them wrong and they say if you dont like it move... Sounds like a page from 1935 Germany.



    What do you have to say guys???
    Last edited by Mesomorphyl; 09-25-2005 at 11:54 AM. Reason: what anti-american nonsense? -Tock (what do you have to say guys???)

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    MASTERDBOL please read this and tell me if you think it is unamerican... Decadbal please educate yourself, you sound moronic when you try to debate a position... actually you sound ignorant.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

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    Bump and will continue to do so once every day until Tocks question is answered as well as my post gets a response.

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    I agree with Tock and Meso ......all i ever hear is " move then " .These people tend to be the most uninformed .

    Gaurentee the response is less than intellegant .

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    the reason i said it, was bc, its the social standing point now for everyone to badmouth america, and granted most ppl havnt left the us, to see how great we have it, even though almost everytihng about the gov pisses me off, im intelligent enough to know we have it way better than almost any other place in the world. so the reason i said it was simply bc, if you dislike it so much here, and think its so awful, leave, if not forever, just long enough to show you that it isnt hell... although its gettin dam close, it still isnt..

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    Hundreds of thousands of American soldiers have died through the years for that flag and this country.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Decadbal
    so the reason i said it was simply bc, if you dislike it so much here, and think its so awful, leave, if not forever, just long enough to show you that it isnt hell... although its gettin dam close, it still isnt..
    Alot of european countries seem more free than us, so until you get a chance to travel I would not make that assumption. Next, if I dislike something and think something is not right, I will not leave... I will bring it to light, try and get people to become active instead of saying "nothing can be done", bull shit, something can be done... it starts by talking about it, then action. Action could be a multitude of things... Voting, writting letters to those that serve us, protesting, educating ourselves, help fund alternative media, become the media, if all else fails we have the right and the duty to throw off such despotism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Benches505
    Hundreds of thousands of American soldiers have died through the years for that flag and this country.
    Hundreds of thousands for that flag? No sir, people died for the principles of maintaining a military to uphold our way of life. Mostly they die because older rich men want power and control. If I ever here someone giving their life for a flag and not for the future of their children or to defend and protect the constitution, I will show you an idolater with a mental handicap.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tock
    Makes no difference, really.

    Since public schools are administered by government officials and government employees, and are funded by taxpayers obliged to fund them under the laws of the secular government, then those public schools are required to abide by the laws and Constitution of the USA. And not only is the government prohibited from inquiring into the religious beleifs of unbeleivers, but it is similarly prohibited from asking Christians about their religious opinions as well.

    So, it makes no difference if only Christians are obliged to recite "under god" in the morning Pledge and atheists are excused. Government officials have no more business dabbling in religious phrases than they have in posting Ouija boards in school classrooms and requiring every student to learn how to operate them . . .

    Besides, if parents REALLY were concerned about this sort of thing, they'd say the Pledge of Allegience followed by a prayer with their children before they went to school every morning. But how often do you see that happen?

    -Tock
    i completely agree with you on this. especially the last paragraph. however....all i was really saying is that what is soooo wrong with the pledge of allegiance? its not forcing prayer. its not coercing anybody to do anything. there is nothing but good in it. it is just showing respect to the flag of our country.....respect to the soldiers that are fighting/have fought for this country......and just giving people a sense of security and well being. it feels good to recite the pledge of allegiance. if they wanted to rewrite the pledge to exclude "under God"....that would be fine with me. i would not have a problem with that at all. i am just tired of all of the anti-american news. i'm tired of the anti-american protests. i'm tired of americans hating america!!! this is one awesome country that has given us more rights and opportunities than any other in this world. and patriotism should not be something looked down on. it is a wonderful thing, that for at least one moment during the pledge, we as americans are unified and together

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mesomorphyl
    Hundreds of thousands for that flag? No sir, people died for the principles of maintaining a military to uphold our way of life. Mostly they die because older rich men want power and control. If I ever here someone giving their life for a flag and not for the future of their children or to defend and protect the constitution, I will show you an idolater with a mental handicap.
    you sir are absolutely incorrect!!!!! i served some time in the military. got shot while serving. almost died. and had/saw many friends die while under my command. we did not die for some old rich man!!! we were, wherever we were, because we believe in this country and what it stands for!!! the flag represents this country that soldiers die for. it gives a sense of pride and honor to see our flag flying high! and that flag covers the coffins of dead soldiers and then is given to the next of kin for them to cherish and honor the rest of their lives. no....we dont die "for the flag" solely...but i can damn well assure you that we would do anything in our power to protect it from getting harmed or torn down!!! dont speak for soldiers that you obviously DO NOT know, nor obviously have never been!!!! because if you had, you would not make ignorant statements such as that. and p.s. God or Creator is mentioned in almost every document our forefathers wrote. so should we disregard the constitution and the declaration of independence as well as the flag???? i think not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Decadbal
    the reason i said it, was bc, its the social standing point now for everyone to badmouth america
    Everyone? Really?

    Can you name a few people who have badmouthed America, and tell us what they said?

    -Tock

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mesomorphyl
    Hundreds of thousands for that flag? No sir, people died for the principles of maintaining a military to uphold our way of life. Mostly they die because older rich men want power and control. If I ever here someone giving their life for a flag and not for the future of their children or to defend and protect the constitution, I will show you an idolater with a mental handicap.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MASTERDBOL
    i completely agree with you on this. especially the last paragraph. however....all i was really saying is that what is soooo wrong with the pledge of allegiance? its not forcing prayer. its not coercing anybody to do anything.
    Well, when the government has a law requiring compulsory school attendance, and then it has a law requiring compulsory recital of the Pledge which has a religious phrase in it, then the government essentially ends up requiring schoolkids to say religious stuff.

    When the government requires students to identify themselves as not wanting to participate in the group recital of religious phrases, as it does in some localities, citizens end up having to request their First Amendment rights under the US Constitution to be free from the government's sponsorship of religious stuff. And this, as the US Supreme Court has ruled on several occasions, is not allowed.

    So, even though the controversy seems to center around an innocuous phrase, "under God," the real problem centers around whether or not the government has the right to require people to say it.

    -Tock

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tock
    Well, when the government has a law requiring compulsory school attendance, and then it has a law requiring compulsory recital of the Pledge which has a religious phrase in it, then the government essentially ends up requiring schoolkids to say religious stuff.

    When the government requires students to identify themselves as not wanting to participate in the group recital of religious phrases, as it does in some localities, citizens end up having to request their First Amendment rights under the US Constitution to be free from the government's sponsorship of religious stuff. And this, as the US Supreme Court has ruled on several occasions, is not allowed.

    So, even though the controversy seems to center around an innocuous phrase, "under God," the real problem centers around whether or not the government has the right to require people to say it.

    -Tock
    i guarantee that if that inocuous phrase was not present, then we would probably not be having this conversation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mesomorphyl
    Looks photoshopped. I have never seen a school or heard of one giving a seig hail sign. As for the pledge, I am sure it has socialist connotations.
    the "sieg hail" salute is a pretty common salute thoughout history, i'm sure that people just don't do it anymore since WW2, just like no one names their kid adolph anymore lol.

    if you watch homoerotic gladiator movies like i do you see the romans doing that same salute. "oh thaesar, i thalute thee..."

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    Quote Originally Posted by MASTERDBOL
    i am just tired of all of the anti-american news. i'm tired of the anti-american protests. i'm tired of americans hating america!!!
    I suspect that if you were to inquire into the lives of these protestors, you'd find 99.999% of them are quite content to continue living in the USA, and that they realize that their lives here are much better than they would be in virtually any other country on the planet.

    However . . .
    When people see Great Wrongs being done in this country, the Patriotic thing is to do something about it. The Patriotic thing is to push recalcitrant politicians to do the right thing. And sometimes, yes, it takes organized protests.

    Consider how tens of millions of black folks would be living nowadays if they had never complained, filed lawsuits, challenged the status quo, participated in marches and protests. They'd still be treated as door mats.

    Consider how ill-advised the Vietnam War was . . . Over 50,000 Americans died in that war, and for what? To bring democracy to a bunch of southeast Asians who were largely indifferent to it? To make southeast Asia secure for US corporations and their profits? Bah, humbug. IMHO, it was Patriotic Americans voiced their opinion that the US should mind its own business, who exposed the lies the American government told the American people, and without them, without all the marching, bitterly complaining, anti-war activists exercising their Constitutional Rights of Assembly and Petitioning the government for redress of grievances as True Patriots, I'm certain that the US government would have continued to sacrifice tens of thousands additional US lives in a half-hearted attempt to give the Vietnamese people the democracy they didn't know they wanted.

    Speaking of marching people, grousing about bad treatment . . . Consider how gay people would be living today had there not been such things as Gay Pride Marches and other similar protests. People like me would still be subject to arrest for nothing more than sleeping with another man. People like me would still be subject to blackmail, likely to get fired, be prevented from working as police, undertakers, teachers, and more. Unfortunately, gay people still can't serve in the US military (even though it's not a problem in other civilized countries, like Israel where evey gay person MUST serve, and in England, where the armed forces actively recruit homosexuals), and gay people still can't get legal recognition for their relationships, and where gay people are still a popular target for violence.
    Ya, until stuff like this is fixed, Patriotic Americans are gonna keep bitching and complaining and fussing and marching and protesting until everyone gets to play by the same rules.

    Maybe you just have no stomach for protests, for arguements, for anyone who makes a fuss. If that's the case, you'll be happy to know that there are countries that discourage that sort of thing, like Iran, China, Saudi Arabia, and others. You'll find peace of mind there, I'm sure. But if you elect to stay in the USA, keep in mind that everyone here has Constitutional freedoms that permit bitching and complaining and fussing and marching and protesting, and each and every person who does so with the hope of improving this country is, IMHO, a True Patriot.








    Quote Originally Posted by MASTERDBOL
    this is one awesome country that has given us more rights and opportunities than any other in this world.
    Close.
    We don't get our Rights from this country, or from our government. Nope.
    We Americans, each and every one of us, are born with a full slate of rights, and we give the government the authority to pass laws and regulations in our behalf. So, no, we don't get rights and opportunities from this country; we are, instead, born with them, and whatever authority we have given to the government can be withdrawn. That's how things actually work in the USA under our Constitution.

    Just wanted to clarify that small but important point . . .





    Quote Originally Posted by MASTERDBOL
    and patriotism should not be something looked down on.
    Agreed.






    Quote Originally Posted by MASTERDBOL
    it is a wonderful thing, that for at least one moment during the pledge, we as americans are unified and together
    It would, however, be more wonderful if this "one unifying moment" wasn't one of those compulsory things the government forces people to do.
    Ya, if folks want to say the Pledge at baseball games, that's wonderful. If folks want to say the Pledge on New Year's Eve, that's wonderful. If folks want to say the Pledge before starting a week-long sex orgy in downtown Boise, that's great. But when the government makes reciting such things mandatory, well, then that's not so great.
    Much better for government to fill potholes and for schools to teach math . . . Agree?

    -Tock

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    Quote Originally Posted by MASTERDBOL
    i guarantee that if that inocuous phrase was not present, then we would probably not be having this conversation.
    We might.

    Jehovah's Witnesses challenged the right for the government to make them say the Pledge back in the 1940's, and they won. And that was the Pledge before the US Congress added the "under God" phrase to it.

    Seems to me that what's good for the Jehovah's Witnesses should be good for the rest of us. And again, it would be much better if the government would just tend to its legitimate role in fixing potholes and defending the country from outside evil-doers, instead of trying to force people to say things.

    -Tock

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mesomorphyl
    Hundreds of thousands for that flag? No sir, people died for the principles of maintaining a military to uphold our way of life. Mostly they die because older rich men want power and control. If I ever here someone giving their life for a flag and not for the future of their children or to defend and protect the constitution, I will show you an idolater with a mental handicap.
    I think he was refering to the symbolic meaning of the flag. Not like they were giving their life up for just a plain old cotton blend flag.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MASTERDBOL
    you sir are absolutely incorrect!!!!! i served some time in the military. got shot while serving. almost died. and had/saw many friends die while under my command. we did not die for some old rich man!!! we were, wherever we were, because we believe in this country and what it stands for!!! the flag represents this country that soldiers die for. it gives a sense of pride and honor to see our flag flying high! and that flag covers the coffins of dead soldiers and then is given to the next of kin for them to cherish and honor the rest of their lives. no....we dont die "for the flag" solely...but i can damn well assure you that we would do anything in our power to protect it from getting harmed or torn down!!! dont speak for soldiers that you obviously DO NOT know, nor obviously have never been!!!! because if you had, you would not make ignorant statements such as that. and p.s. God or Creator is mentioned in almost every document our forefathers wrote. so should we disregard the constitution and the declaration of independence as well as the flag???? i think not.
    #1 I was in the military, US Army although I was not a grunt, I was a medic who saw alot of dead and injured. We were there for eachother more than any cause. But who decided to start war? Rich old men... If you do not believe that you are blinded. Representation and sybolism is one thing but die for as benches505 put it "that flag", no it was for our country. So to recap I did serve and my statement was not ignorant but shedding light on the truth why we went over there. Oil. Sorry but this is how the world really works.

    #2 To answer your PS, I love God, am a christian, and I have never seen anything that tried to separate church and state. Also you never said if you agreed with my post. Please reply to the post that I asked you to, and let me know if you agree to it.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tock
    I suspect that if you were to inquire into the lives of these protestors, you'd find 99.999% of them are quite content to continue living in the USA, and that they realize that their lives here are much better than they would be in virtually any other country on the planet.

    However . . .
    When people see Great Wrongs being done in this country, the Patriotic thing is to do something about it. The Patriotic thing is to push recalcitrant politicians to do the right thing. And sometimes, yes, it takes organized protests.

    Consider how tens of millions of black folks would be living nowadays if they had never complained, filed lawsuits, challenged the status quo, participated in marches and protests. They'd still be treated as door mats.

    Consider how ill-advised the Vietnam War was . . . Over 50,000 Americans died in that war, and for what? To bring democracy to a bunch of southeast Asians who were largely indifferent to it? To make southeast Asia secure for US corporations and their profits? Bah, humbug. IMHO, it was Patriotic Americans voiced their opinion that the US should mind its own business, who exposed the lies the American government told the American people, and without them, without all the marching, bitterly complaining, anti-war activists exercising their Constitutional Rights of Assembly and Petitioning the government for redress of grievances as True Patriots, I'm certain that the US government would have continued to sacrifice tens of thousands additional US lives in a half-hearted attempt to give the Vietnamese people the democracy they didn't know they wanted.

    Speaking of marching people, grousing about bad treatment . . . Consider how gay people would be living today had there not been such things as Gay Pride Marches and other similar protests. People like me would still be subject to arrest for nothing more than sleeping with another man. People like me would still be subject to blackmail, likely to get fired, be prevented from working as police, undertakers, teachers, and more. Unfortunately, gay people still can't serve in the US military (even though it's not a problem in other civilized countries, like Israel where evey gay person MUST serve, and in England, where the armed forces actively recruit homosexuals), and gay people still can't get legal recognition for their relationships, and where gay people are still a popular target for violence.
    Ya, until stuff like this is fixed, Patriotic Americans are gonna keep bitching and complaining and fussing and marching and protesting until everyone gets to play by the same rules.

    Maybe you just have no stomach for protests, for arguements, for anyone who makes a fuss. If that's the case, you'll be happy to know that there are countries that discourage that sort of thing, like Iran, China, Saudi Arabia, and others. You'll find peace of mind there, I'm sure. But if you elect to stay in the USA, keep in mind that everyone here has Constitutional freedoms that permit bitching and complaining and fussing and marching and protesting, and each and every person who does so with the hope of improving this country is, IMHO, a True Patriot.



    Close.
    We don't get our Rights from this country, or from our government. Nope.
    We Americans, each and every one of us, are born with a full slate of rights, and we give the government the authority to pass laws and regulations in our behalf. So, no, we don't get rights and opportunities from this country; we are, instead, born with them, and whatever authority we have given to the government can be withdrawn. That's how things actually work in the USA under our Constitution.

    Just wanted to clarify that small but important point . . .

    Agreed.

    It would, however, be more wonderful if this "one unifying moment" wasn't one of those compulsory things the government forces people to do.
    Ya, if folks want to say the Pledge at baseball games, that's wonderful. If folks want to say the Pledge on New Year's Eve, that's wonderful. If folks want to say the Pledge before starting a week-long sex orgy in downtown Boise, that's great. But when the government makes reciting such things mandatory, well, then that's not so great.
    Much better for government to fill potholes and for schools to teach math . . . Agree?

    -Tock
    I thought I said that but shorter and without the gay stuff( ), kidding bro. Anyhow it is amazing what people think patriotic means...

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mesomorphyl
    MASTERDBOL please read this and tell me if you think it is unamerican... Decadbal please educate yourself, you sound moronic when you try to debate a position... actually you sound ignorant.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.
    This was post #20 please tell me if you agree or disagree, thanks masterdbol

    signed ex-serviceman,
    Meso

  40. #40
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    [QUOTE=Mesomorphyl]This was post #20 please tell me if you agree or disagree, thanks masterdbol

    signed ex-serviceman,
    Meso[/QUO
    of course i agree witht his document. but i hardly think that our government is to a point that we have to start forming a coup against it.

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