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  1. #1
    notus's Avatar
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    Tock what are your five top reasons...

    Why you do not believe in Christianity? I left fundamentalism about a year ago but I am curious why you do not believe the bible and Christianity. What would your strongest argument against the bible be?

  2. #2
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    Can I guess tock?
    1. He is gay. The bible is anti-gay. And thus infringes on his personal life.
    2. There is no physical evidence for the exodus or noah's flood.
    3. He went to a church that ridiculed him for being gay (if i remember correctly).
    4. He needs physical proof of everything and leads nothing to faith.
    5. He sees "christians" not following how christianity is supposed to be and thus is negatively influenced by them and stereotypes all christians as bad.

    not meant to be an attack...just how i see it.

  3. #3
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    his strongest arguement will be lack of physical evidence that 100% presents God's existence.

  4. #4
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    Uhh, dude. Don't you think you're getting a little personal there? Sure...not an attack, completely justified.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ginkobulloba
    Uhh, dude. Don't you think you're getting a little personal there? Sure...not an attack, completely justified.
    I wont delete it since i wrote it, wouldnt be fair either, though i honestly didnt think it was personal. Hes said every one of those 5 i listed, if not directly, at the very least made it pretty clear without wording it like that.

    1. of course hes gay. of course the bible is anti-gay (he points out every day it seems) and he hates when people/groups tell him what he can/cant do in his personal life (ie: being gay is wrong).

    2. every thread concerning bible evidence he brings up noah's flood and the exodus.

    3. he talked about the church he went to before and it seemed like it left a very bitter taste in his mouth because of some things that were said or done.

    4. he makes it very clear that he requires physical proof of everything.

    5. hes made numerous comments about tv evangilists or 'someone beating up a gay person for being gay' and linking that behavior to all christians.

    we'll wait to see if he takes offense, and if so ill apologize. but i dont think he will and i hope he doesnt.

  6. #6
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    sounds like tock answered this top 5 himself...

  7. #7
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    Tock is a VERY intelligent person. His intelligence is a big factor in his disbelief. He should be encouraged to question everything, no one wants to be gullible! The problem is that his intelligence is what turns his agnosticism into atheism. I believe it is entirely natural to have doubt. It is very easy to follow this path because it is, and I am inventing this phrase, spiritually tangible. You can easily discredit most situations to simple luck or coincidence. It is rare to actually come into a situation that you know, without a doubt, has a spiritual or supernatural source. Very rare.

    Until Tock lives through a situation where the presence of a higher power is made incredibly apparent (like the one in my "reason I believe" thread) he will stay an atheist.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by scriptfactory
    Tock is a VERY intelligent person. His intelligence is a big factor in his disbelief. He should be encouraged to question everything, no one wants to be gullible! The problem is that his intelligence is what turns his agnosticism into atheism. I believe it is entirely natural to have doubt. It is very easy to follow this path because it is, and I am inventing this phrase, spiritually tangible. You can easily discredit most situations to simple luck or coincidence. It is rare to actually come into a situation that you know, without a doubt, has a spiritual or supernatural source. Very rare.

    Until Tock lives through a situation where the presence of a higher power is made incredibly apparent (like the one in my "reason I believe" thread) he will stay an atheist.
    I believe in God, however we shouldn't use expierance as something to prove our religion to be true. Muslims, buhdist, spiritualist, and hindus have had the presence of a higher power that is made incredibly apparent... does that mean what they believe is true? This is not a slam by any mean, i hope your not offended.

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    Quote Originally Posted by notus
    I believe in God, however we shouldn't use expierance as something to prove our religion to be true. Muslims, buhdist, spiritualist, and hindus have had the presence of a higher power that is made incredibly apparent... does that mean what they believe is true? This is not a slam by any mean, i hope your not offended.
    First of all, no offense whatsoever. Second, Muslims believe in the same God as Christians and Jews. Buddhist, Spiritualists and Hindus can believe whatever they want, if they live a bad life they will be punished. If they lead a good life they will be redeemed. The God I believe in doesn't send good people to the lake of fire while letting people like Pat Robertson be redeemed just because he believes.

  10. #10
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    Gee, how did I miss this thread?
    -Tock

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    Can I guess tock?
    There's nothing like being eager to be presumptious, is there?





    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    1. He is gay. The bible is anti-gay. And thus infringes on his personal life.
    Actually, I know lots of gay Christians, and I get along with them famously. They don't make me live by their beliefs, and I don't point out how silly those beliefs are.
    If conservative fundamentalist Christians would do the same (mind their own business), I'd leave them in peace to wallow in their own swill. But of course, they won't, so I don't.
    As they say, "Turnabout is foreplay."






    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    2. There is no physical evidence for the exodus or noah's flood.
    Not only that, but there's no reason to suppose that the events in the Old Testament ever happened. Talking serpents? Talking asses? I don't think so. Cramming hundreds of thousands of animals into a space smaller than 3 acres? I don't think so.
    Humans have a pretty good record of making up cultural folktales, like Paul Bunyan and Johnny Appleseed. Noah and Adam are just more of 'em.





    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    3. He went to a church that ridiculed him for being gay (if i remember correctly).
    Of course, lots of fundamentalist churches want laws enacted that would put me in prison for breaking their bible rules. They don't seem to want to be on friendly terms with me.
    And no, they didn't ridicule me. They kicked me out of their church when someone told them I was gay. Ya, the spineless creeps mailed me the notice, didn't even have the balls to tell me to my face, or to ask me if the rumors were true. Yet, when it came time to deal with the preacher and his adultery (he broke one of the 10 commandments that has a death penalty), they let him off with a good talking-to. Kept his job behind the pulpit.
    But that cheap little act didn't affect the way I eventually came to regard the Bible. It did, however, affect the way I regard that church.






    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    4. He needs physical proof of everything and leads nothing to faith.
    Look, no one knows who actually wrote many books of the Bible. That means that wretched book is ANONYMOUS. Would you take some bizarre account of the origin of the universe that included talking animals as 100% literal truth? Would you accept as literally true an account of history where a nation lost over half its population and all of its armed forces in a series of supernatural events, particularly where there is not even the slightest bit of corroborating evidence to support the claim, and where there is plenty of reason to suppose the fable was merely wishful thinking on the part of a bunch of ancient tribesmen, who didn't even have a pot to piss in?









    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    5. He sees "christians" not following how christianity is supposed to be and thus is negatively influenced by them and stereotypes all christians as bad.
    1) I see lots of hypocrites demanding that schools post the 10 Commandments in schools, yet those same people not only do not know what those 10 Commandments say, but they cheerfully violate most of them on a regular basis. And while they transgress their own sacred rules, they insist that I, who am not even a member of their religion, be compelled to comply with THEIR religious laws. This tells me that fundamentalist Christians are inherently hypocritical, and are lower on the moral pecking order than I.
    2) Not all Christians are bad. There are some that practice the sort of Christianity that assumes that the Bible is meant to be taken seriously, but not literally. They place importance on the positive and constructive aspects of Jesus' teachings, and regard the ancient folklore of the Old Testament and the Apostle Paul's ravings (like his condemnation of men with long hair, and women as the cause of man's fall) as insignificant. They know how to have a good night on the town, don't try to make other people live by their rules, and generally mind their own business while doing charity for others. These are the Christians I don't mind . . . sort of like Muslims -- I don't mind being around them as long as they don't push their religion off on me, or make me stick my asss up in the air while praying five times a day.
    So, no, I don't overgeneralize about Christians. But I sure can tell a bible thumper from a reasonable one.





    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    not meant to be an attack...just how i see it.
    Must be time for an eye exam . . .
    -Tock

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    his strongest arguement will be lack of physical evidence that 100% presents God's existence.
    No, my strongest arguement is that the Bible, upon which the Christian religion is based on, is a bunch of crap.
    It says lots of crazy stuff about stuffing dinosaurs into tiny Arks with cows and sheep for 14 months.
    It says that its god was justified by inducing an Egyptian Pharaoh to refuse a request, and then punish that Pharaoh for doing so. That, IMHO, is what a sadist would do, not a benevolent deity.
    It supports terrible social evils like slavery, and opposes the right of people to own property, make interest bearing loans, and calls for the DEATH penalty for anyone who works on the Sabbath.

    No, the Bible's biggest problem is what it says. It continues to exist in our society because few people actually read that vile and filthy book, and few people know what it actually says.

    The Bible is a horrible book, full of atrocities, impossibilities, and immorality, and that's all there is to it. The planet would be much better off had the thing never existed.

    -Tock

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    I wont delete it since i wrote it, wouldnt be fair either, though i honestly didnt think it was personal. Hes said every one of those 5 i listed, if not directly, at the very least made it pretty clear without wording it like that.
    I'm only rankled in that you didn't accurately convey my viewpoints.

    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    1. of course hes gay. of course the bible is anti-gay (he points out every day it seems) and he hates when people/groups tell him what he can/cant do in his personal life (ie: being gay is wrong).
    Of course I'm gay. Why wouldn't I be, with all these gorgeous men around?
    And yes, I dislike it when other people/groups tell me what I can and can't do in my personal life. I particularly dislike it when they make their religious beleifs into law, and they expect me to live a "Christian life" even though I am not a Christian.
    Ya, some Christians are pure unadulterated asss hola meddling busybodies who think they have the right to tell other people how to live.
    Who wouldn't be bothered by that?







    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    2. every thread concerning bible evidence he brings up noah's flood and the exodus.
    Fundamentalist Christians say that both events actually happened. I pointed out a few obvious shortcomings to both stories and ask for explanations, but I never get any. I understand that you'd feel uncomfortable, being exposed as silly about those two issues, but keep in mind that there are lots and lots of other silliness I could bring up. I focus on just a couple of them, so you and your fundamentalist pals can have enough time to find adequate information to support your claims. Once you do that, then we can go on to other issues. Not much point going on to talk about the Bible's immorality if you can't address the problems I've brought up regarding the Exodus and the Ark.






    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    3. he talked about the church he went to before and it seemed like it left a very bitter taste in his mouth because of some things that were said or done.
    In my case, that would include being notified by mail that I was no longer a member of that church because of a rumor, yet they kept an adulterous preacher. And adulterous church members, too.
    But I got over that. But nowadays that church actively opposes equal rights for gay people. They even took the City of New York to court because they didn't like the conditions that came with grant money to feed the poor (they want the right to use public $$$ and discriminate against gays and lesbians). Seems to me if they ask for and accept money from the City of New York for charitable purposes, then the city should have the right to tell them what to do with that money.






    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    4. he makes it very clear that he requires physical proof of everything.
    Untrue.
    I'll settle for reasonable evidence of most stuff, starting with reasonable evidence that the Exodus ever happened, and reasonable evidence that hundreds of thousands of animals (including dinosaurs) could survive on a boat less than 3 acres in size for 14 months. Oh, and also, that a serpant could have ever talked to Eve in the Garden of Eden.

    I've made this simple request time and time again, and time and time again you (and Books) disappoint me. Seems to me I'm not asking for much.





    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    5. hes made numerous comments about tv evangilists or 'someone beating up a gay person for being gay' and linking that behavior to all christians.
    I'm sure you'll cheerfully admit that Jerry Falwell, Jimmy Swaggart, James Dobson, and many other big-league preachers rag on gays, and that lots and lots of their followers support them. And Southern Babtist churches (and lots of others) regularly feature sermons against gay people and equal rights for gays and lesbians, and call for the re-criminalization of private, consensual gay sex. On top of that, many many many Christians have been working tirelessly to get an anti-gay amendment to the US Constitution passed.
    Ya, Christian fundamentalists are fanatical haters. For the most part, anyway.






    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    we'll wait to see if he takes offense, and if so ill apologize. but i dont think he will and i hope he doesnt.
    I've seen and been through lots worse than this . . . it's small potatos, in the big scheme of things. I'm just glad I had the chance to set you straight (so to speak) on a few things.

    -Tock

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by scriptfactory
    First of all, no offense whatsoever. Second, Muslims believe in the same God as Christians and Jews. Buddhist, Spiritualists and Hindus can believe whatever they want, if they live a bad life they will be punished. If they lead a good life they will be redeemed. The God I believe in doesn't send good people to the lake of fire while letting people like Pat Robertson be redeemed just because he believes.

    No, the muslim God is impersonal vs. the Christian God who is personal. THere are many differences. There claim is false. f

  15. #15
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    my bad for jumpin the gun tock. so what are your 5 top reasons?

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by books555
    No, the muslim God is impersonal vs. the Christian God who is personal. THere are many differences. There claim is false. f
    In your opinion.

    Care to explain this more about personal and impersonal.

    And how about GOD in the First Testament? Is he personal or impersonal?

  17. #17
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    tock, i just wanted to say i've read many of your posts and i'm always intrigued by what you have to say. all of your opinions are thought out and well stated. due to this, i have nothing but respect for you and your ideas. keep them coming and hopefully some people could learn a few things.

    tkdwnII

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    Quote Originally Posted by CAUSASIAN
    In your opinion.

    Care to explain this more about personal and impersonal.

    And how about GOD in the First Testament? Is he personal or impersonal?

    I would love to. No offense, Muhammed didnt understand the Judeo Christian worldview. I will respond, limited time right now.

  19. #19
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    Wow, all these opinions are very interesting.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    my bad for jumpin the gun tock. so what are your 5 top reasons?
    Basically, there's one reason.

    The Bible is flawed. Therefore, it can be no more than a record of past religious practice and beleifs, not anything to be taken literally. And since I have better things to do than to waste time sitting in church with a bunch of boring self-righteous holier-than-thou Pharasees, I spend my time doing those better things.

    FYI, here are some of the flaws of the Bible:

    1) The Christian Bible is largely anonymous. Nobody knows who wrote the first several books of the Bible, so there's no way to go back and tell if the author was full of crap or not. Instead, people are expected to beleive it, or else burn in Hell.

    Nuts to that.


    2) Many of its directives are antiquated and have been rendered unnecessary, imprudent, and even illegal.

    3) Many of its heros perform acts of unrivaled moral depravity, with the approval of its god.

    4) The book is degrading to women.

    5) It is incredibly repressive, demanding death penalties for a wide array of petty offenses.

    6) Its god endorses the evil practice of slavery.

    7) Its god endorses polygamy.

    8) Its god encourages wanton and needless violence.


    Over the past 2000 years, the Bible has inspired millions of Christians to brutalize scoffers and blasphemers in many horrible ways. For instance, the savage practice of sawing people in half is recorded in II Samuel 12:31, I Chronicles 20:3, and Hebrews 11:37. Christians picked up on the idea and used it to punish heretics for many many years.

    The god portrayed in the Christian Bible intends to fling the vast majority of people who ever lived into eternal torments of undescribable vicious sadism for hundreds of millions of trillions of eons, and all for committing the simple offense of harboring an honest doubt. That, in my humble opinion, is the work of the vilest of demons, not a god worthy of human adoration and worship. Any person who could worship such a beast knowing what it intends to do to humankind is a bit warped.

    The Christian Bible is no more than a terrible libel upon the Creator of the Universe. If it bothered to acquaint itself with its contents, I'm sure it would become so enraged that it would set fire to every copy, and would destroy every temple where its precepts were preached.


    That's about it, I think. It's late, I might remember some other significant reason later . . . If that's not enough to chew on, let me know and I'll give you some more . . .

    -Tock

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    Quote Originally Posted by takedownII
    tock, i just wanted to say i've read many of your posts and i'm always intrigued by what you have to say. all of your opinions are thought out and well stated. due to this, i have nothing but respect for you and your ideas. keep them coming and hopefully some people could learn a few things.

    tkdwnII
    Thanks, I appreciate the compliments . . .
    --Tock

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tock
    Basically, there's one reason.

    The Bible is flawed. Therefore, it can be no more than a record of past religious practice and beleifs, not anything to be taken literally. And since I have better things to do than to waste time sitting in church with a bunch of boring self-righteous holier-than-thou Pharasees, I spend my time doing those better things.

    FYI, here are some of the flaws of the Bible:

    1) The Christian Bible is largely anonymous. Nobody knows who wrote the first several books of the Bible, so there's no way to go back and tell if the author was full of crap or not. Instead, people are expected to beleive it, or else burn in Hell.

    Nuts to that.


    2) Many of its directives are antiquated and have been rendered unnecessary, imprudent, and even illegal.

    3) Many of its heros perform acts of unrivaled moral depravity, with the approval of its god.

    4) The book is degrading to women.

    5) It is incredibly repressive, demanding death penalties for a wide array of petty offenses.

    6) Its god endorses the evil practice of slavery.

    7) Its god endorses polygamy.

    8) Its god encourages wanton and needless violence.


    Over the past 2000 years, the Bible has inspired millions of Christians to brutalize scoffers and blasphemers in many horrible ways. For instance, the savage practice of sawing people in half is recorded in II Samuel 12:31, I Chronicles 20:3, and Hebrews 11:37. Christians picked up on the idea and used it to punish heretics for many many years.

    The god portrayed in the Christian Bible intends to fling the vast majority of people who ever lived into eternal torments of undescribable vicious sadism for hundreds of millions of trillions of eons, and all for committing the simple offense of harboring an honest doubt. That, in my humble opinion, is the work of the vilest of demons, not a god worthy of human adoration and worship. Any person who could worship such a beast knowing what it intends to do to humankind is a bit warped.

    The Christian Bible is no more than a terrible libel upon the Creator of the Universe. If it bothered to acquaint itself with its contents, I'm sure it would become so enraged that it would set fire to every copy, and would destroy every temple where its precepts were preached.


    That's about it, I think. It's late, I might remember some other significant reason later . . . If that's not enough to chew on, let me know and I'll give you some more . . .

    -Tock

    For everyone reading Tocks post. Many of his claims are false.


    1.Josephus tells how the Jews copied the Old Testament:

    "We have given practical proof of our reverence for our own Scriptures. For although such long ages have now passed, no one has ventured either to add, or to remove, or to alter a syllable; and it is an instinct with every Jew, from the day of his birth, to regard them as the decrees of God, to abide by them, and, if need be, cheerfully to die for them" (Against Apion, Book I, sec., 8, p. 158).

    Josephus made no exaggeration. The Jewish copyists knew exactly how many letters where in every line of every book and how many times each word occurred in each book. This enabled them to check for errors (Shelly, Prepare to Answer, p. 133). The Jews believed that adding any mistake to the Scriptures would be punishable by Hell - unlike the modern secretary who has many letters to type and must work hard to keep his job, and consequently feels that mistakes are inevitable. Great care is exercised with scriptures when someone holds a conviction such as this. But even with the great amount of care exercised in copying, errors have crept into the manuscripts. No one questions that spelling errors, misplaced letters, and word omissions have occurred. What is not true is that these errors have gradually built up over time so that our copies look nothing like the originals. This view was commonly held until recently.

    In 1947 the accuracy of these documents was confirmed by the Dead Sea Scrolls. These scrolls were found in caves in the dessert near the Dead Sea by a shepherd boy. Before the discovery of these scrolls, the earliest Old Testament manuscripts we had were from about 980 A.D. The manuscripts discovered in the caves dated from 250 B.C. to shortly after the time of Christ. In careful comparison of the manuscripts it was confirmed that the copies we had were almost precisely the same as those which date over 1000 years earlier. Old Testament scholar Gleason Archer said that even though there is such a difference in dates of the manuscripts,

    "We have given practical proof of our reverence for our own Scriptures. For although such long ages have now passed, no one has ventured either to add, or to remove, or to alter a syllable; and it is an instinct with every Jew, from the day of his birth, to regard them as the decrees of God, to abide by them, and, if need be, cheerfully to die for them" (Against Apion, Book I, sec., 8, p. 158).

    No other historical literature has been so carefully preserved and historically confirmed.

    When we come to the New Testament we see a similar phenomenon. There are over 5,000 Greek New Testament manuscripts in existence. This is by far more than any other historical documents, which usually have maybe a dozen copies from very late dates. The New Testament manuscripts are many and old and they are spread over a wide geographical area. What this enables the New Testament historian to do is collect manuscripts from Jerusalem and Egypt and Syria and other places and compare them for variations. And variations do exist, but as with the Old Testament they are relatively few and rarely important to the meaning of the text. What these manuscripts demonstrate is that different families of texts existed very early that were copied from the original or good copies of the original. This allows us to trace the manuscripts back to the source as one would follow the branches of a tree to get to the trunk. Aside from the manuscripts themselves, "virtually the entire New Testament could be reproduced from citations contained in the works of the early church fathers. There are some thirty-two thousand citations in the writings of the Fathers prior to the Council of Nicea (325)" (Moreland, Scaling the Secular City, p. 136).


    http://www.leaderu.com/


    2. Which ones. I need to know, to answere you objection.


    3. This is untrue, again, give examples.


    4. 1 Corinthians 11:3
    God is the head of Christ. Christ is the head of man. Man is the head of woman. Men and women are equal, just as God the Father and God the Son are equal. God the Father would never force or harm the Son. And the Son wouldn’t try to manipulate the Father or think He was less than the Father. In the same way, man shouldn’t mistreat woman, and woman shouldn’t think she’s less than man.


    The Rise of Christianity
    by Rodney Stark - published by Princeton University Press, 1996

    Stark says "Christianity was unusually appealing to pagan women" because "within the Christian subculture women enjoyed far higher status than did women in the Greco-Roman world at large." He shows that Christianity recognized women as equal to men, children of God with the same supernatural destiny. Moreover the Christian moral code of prohibition against polygamy, divorce, birth control, abortion, infanticide, etc. contributed to the well-being of women, changing their status from powerless serfs in bondage to men, to women with dignity and rights in both the Church and the State.


    5. Which ones Tock. Which petty offenses. God is all knowing, you are finite, your claim is meaningless because you are not omnicsent. You, have know way of judging Gods decisions with a finite mind.

    6.Give examples where God endorses slavery.

    7.Some points to keep in mind:

    * The recording of historical acts, including instances of polygamy, is not necessarily an endorsement of it by God. The Bible records both good and bad actions of people, even people considered to be righteous. The fact that David and Solomon had several wives and that it's in the Bible doesn't automatically imply that God was pleased by it, any more than the records of David's adultery and the arguments in the early church implies God's approval of either.

    * Monogamy is first mentioned in Genesis 2:24 - it was God's intention from the beginning. While God did allow polygamy for a time, it was probably for the same reason as his allowance of divorce: "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning" (Mt 19:8).

    * Rampant polygamy (and possibly all polygamy) was prohibited for kings, because it would cause them to turn from God (Dt 17:17). The Israelites should have reasoned that if this were true for kings, it would be true for others, hence polygamy was something they ought to avoid.

    God does not endorse polygamy.


    8. Endorses needless violence, WHERE?

    http://www.rationalchristianity.net/polygamy.html


    All your claim are unwarrented.

  23. #23
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    first, a lot of what you posted are wrongly accusations. But it doesnt matter whether or not we understand or agree with everything. the fact of the matter is what the creator says, goes no matter what we think. and christianity has the most evidence in its favor. if you dont believe moses wrote the first books, would it honestly matter if you did know who exactly wrote it? does the fact that many many many will perish in hell provide any arguement what so ever as to whether christianity is the true religion or not? no. its just that you dont like that scenario. but thanks for posting, and again, my bad on jumpin the gun. peace.

    max

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    Quote Originally Posted by books555
    * The recording of historical acts, including instances of polygamy, is not necessarily an endorsement of it by God. The Bible records both good and bad actions of people, even people considered to be righteous. The fact that David and Solomon had several wives and that it's in the Bible doesn't automatically imply that God was pleased by it, any more than the records of David's adultery and the arguments in the early church implies God's approval of either.
    i think a lot of people dont understand this. this goes to show god's gift of salvation to those unworthy. good paragraph.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tock
    Basically, there's one reason.

    The Bible is flawed. Therefore, it can be no more than a record of past religious practice and beleifs, not anything to be taken literally. And since I have better things to do than to waste time sitting in church with a bunch of boring self-righteous holier-than-thou Pharasees, I spend my time doing those better things.

    FYI, here are some of the flaws of the Bible:

    1) The Christian Bible is largely anonymous. Nobody knows who wrote the first several books of the Bible, so there's no way to go back and tell if the author was full of crap or not. Instead, people are expected to beleive it, or else burn in Hell.

    Nuts to that.


    2) Many of its directives are antiquated and have been rendered unnecessary, imprudent, and even illegal.

    3) Many of its heros perform acts of unrivaled moral depravity, with the approval of its god.

    4) The book is degrading to women.

    5) It is incredibly repressive, demanding death penalties for a wide array of petty offenses.

    6) Its god endorses the evil practice of slavery.

    7) Its god endorses polygamy.

    8) Its god encourages wanton and needless violence.


    Over the past 2000 years, the Bible has inspired millions of Christians to brutalize scoffers and blasphemers in many horrible ways. For instance, the savage practice of sawing people in half is recorded in II Samuel 12:31, I Chronicles 20:3, and Hebrews 11:37. Christians picked up on the idea and used it to punish heretics for many many years.

    The god portrayed in the Christian Bible intends to fling the vast majority of people who ever lived into eternal torments of undescribable vicious sadism for hundreds of millions of trillions of eons, and all for committing the simple offense of harboring an honest doubt. That, in my humble opinion, is the work of the vilest of demons, not a god worthy of human adoration and worship. Any person who could worship such a beast knowing what it intends to do to humankind is a bit warped.

    The Christian Bible is no more than a terrible libel upon the Creator of the Universe. If it bothered to acquaint itself with its contents, I'm sure it would become so enraged that it would set fire to every copy, and would destroy every temple where its precepts were preached.


    That's about it, I think. It's late, I might remember some other significant reason later . . . If that's not enough to chew on, let me know and I'll give you some more . . .

    -Tock
    Thanks Tock.
    I wanted to see if our reason for leaving the faith were the same. I still have many Christians question me and why I left. It doesn't bother me but they harass my wife to the point where she is an emothional wreck for a day or two. I was considering writing an essay to hand people when they quesioned her rigorously, so she wouldn't have to deal with all their bull.

    My # 1 issue is with the bible. Too many errors in it for a perfect, omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, loving, kind, merciful and just God.

    #2 I think faith is unreasonable. Especially when people will go to hell if they don't have it.

    But anyway thanks.

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    simple as that :most gays are atheist and against religions

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    notus, where did you learn hebrew and greek and aramaic?? im studying greek now, but i think it'll be a long time to really know these languages.

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    Quote Originally Posted by notus
    Why you do not believe in Christianity? I left fundamentalism about a year ago but I am curious why you do not believe the bible and Christianity. What would your strongest argument against the bible be?
    I thought, atleast a year ago when he started posting here..

    the root of all his anger is the fact that the church (body of believers) regected him because they would not accept and or condone his preference to have sex with men.

    thus if they would not accept him anylonger, he would not accecpt them..

    simple..
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    Quote Originally Posted by MilitiaGuy
    simple as that :most gays are atheist and against religions
    Unfortunately, that is not true. Most of the gays I know consider themselves to be Christian, and most go to church every week.
    -Tock

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    Quote Originally Posted by spywizard
    the root of all his anger is the fact that the church (body of believers) regected him because they would not accept and or condone his preference to have sex with men.

    thus if they would not accept him anylonger, he would not accecpt them..

    simple..
    That's not quite the situation.

    About the same time I got kicked out of the straight church, I found a gay church, and attended there for 10 or 15 years. I had had many questions about the Christian faith during my time with the straight church that had gone unanswered, and over time the nagging, lingering doubts led me to question basic tenants of fundamentalist Christianity. So, no, rejection by the straight church had no role in my questioning the validity of the Bible. Discovering that there were no good answers for my questions is what prompted me to decide that the Bible is not the work of a god.

    But if it makes you feel more secure, you can beleive anything you like. I understand you don't want to feel that my doubts may have validity.

    -Tock

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    Quote Originally Posted by notus
    Thanks Tock.
    I wanted to see if our reason for leaving the faith were the same. I still have many Christians question me and why I left. It doesn't bother me but they harass my wife to the point where she is an emothional wreck for a day or two. I was considering writing an essay to hand people when they quesioned her rigorously, so she wouldn't have to deal with all their bull.

    My # 1 issue is with the bible. Too many errors in it for a perfect, omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, loving, kind, merciful and just God.

    #2 I think faith is unreasonable. Especially when people will go to hell if they don't have it.

    But anyway thanks.
    You might like to read some of Robert Ingersoll's stuff . . . he was a famous orator (and corporate lawyer for the railroads) in the late 1800's. He was more of an agnostic than an atheist, but earned the enmity of the church crowd because he publicly questioned the Christian religion (and did it quite well).
    Do a websearch on the fellow, and see what you turn up. I think a few sites have most (if not all) of his writings online.

    -Tock

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    Quote Originally Posted by books555
    For everyone reading Tocks post. Many of his claims are false.
    No, they aren't. Check this stuff out:

    Tock wrote:
    1) The Christian Bible is largely anonymous. Nobody knows who wrote the first several books of the Bible, so there's no way to go back and tell if the author was full of crap or not. Instead, people are expected to beleive it, or else burn in Hell.


    Quote Originally Posted by books555
    1.Josephus tells how the Jews copied the Old Testament:
    "We have given practical proof of our reverence for our own Scriptures. For although such long ages have now passed, no one has ventured either to add, or to remove, or to alter a syllable; and it is an instinct with every Jew, from the day of his birth, to regard them as the decrees of God, to abide by them, and, if need be, cheerfully to die for them" (Against Apion, Book I, sec., 8, p. 158).
    It's not a question of how accurately scribes copied the ancient texts. It's a question of
    DOES ANYBODY KNOW WHO WROTE THE TEXTS IN THE FIRST PLACE? The answer to many parts of the Bible, including the books of

    Genesis
    Exodus
    Leviticus
    Deuteronomy
    Numbers

    is NO.

    ================================================== ======





    Tock wrote:
    2) Many of its directives are antiquated and have been rendered unnecessary, imprudent, and even illegal.

    Quote Originally Posted by books555
    2. Which ones. I need to know, to answere you objection.
    Let's start off with the Ten Commandments.
    A couple of them are ok, like the ones against murder and stealing.
    But the ones against (a) Sabbath Breaking, (b) worshipping other gods, and (c) adultery carry death penalties. What's up with that?
    And who in their right mind would insist that everyone in America stop coveting or breaking the sabbath? Tell all the gas stations and supermarkets and shopping malls to close down on Sunday because they MUST comply with the Ten Commandments? Nobody's gonna take you seriously if you do -- and certainly, they shouldn't.

    The Bible also tells people that they --
    Deut. 22:12 Must sew tassels on their clothes
    Deut 15:1-3 Must cancel all debts every 7 years
    Deut. 22:5 Women are not to wear men's clothing (yeah, right!)
    Deut. 23:1 Eunuchs can not go to church
    I Cor. 11:14 Men may not have long hair
    I Cor 11:15 Women may not have short hair
    I Cor. 11:4 Men must not wear hats while praying or prophesying
    I Cor. 11:5 Women must wear hats while praying or prophesying
    I Tim. 2:9 Women are not to braid their hair or wear any jewelry (see also I Peter 3:3)
    Lev. 14:35 Got mildew in your bathroom? You gotta call the local priest
    Lev. 19:13 Must pay employees at the end of every work shift
    Lev. 19:28 Tattoos are sinful
    Lev. 20:18 Couples having sex during the menstrual flow must be exiled.
    Lev. 25:25-28 Did you buy any real estate lately? Well, tough luck, because you can't keep it for longer than 50 years. Then title goes back to the original owner.

    How many more of this BS do you want?
    I really don't have time to type all this stuff . . . I know you won't have any good response for any of it. I'll bet you have no idea that all this crap is in your Bible.

    ================================================== ==========




    Tock wrote:
    3) Many of its heros perform acts of unrivaled moral depravity, with the approval of its god.


    Quote Originally Posted by books555
    3. This is untrue, again, give examples.
    Read and weep.
    II Samuel 13 -- a tale of Amnon's incestuous rape with revenge by a murderer, Absalom, who later rapes his father's wives.
    Deut 22:28-29 -- Extramarital intercourse resolved by paying the woman's father 50 silver shekels. This is a loophole for the death penalty for adultery given in Leviticus. Do I smell a contradiction here?
    Genesis 16:1-3 A barren wife offers her maid to bear family offspring. Kinda kinky, IMHO. Imagine the howls if Hillary Clinton offered her maid to Bill so he could make more babies.
    Exodus 4:21 Jehovah sends Moses to tell Pharaoh to release the Israelites. Jehovah then hardens Pharaoh's heart so that he won't cooperate, then punishes him for his "stubbornness" with the 7 plagues.
    Samuel 18:26-27 King David cut the foreskins off of 200 dead Philistines and used them to buy a wife. Imagine the hoots if a US soldier tried that in Iraq.
    Genesis 12:10-20 Abraham "pimps" his wife.
    Genesis 20:11-12 Abraham's wife was actually his sister!

    Chew on these for a while . . .

    ================================================== =============






    Tock wrote:
    4) The book is degrading to women.

    Quote Originally Posted by books555
    4. 1 Corinthians 11:3
    God is the head of Christ. Christ is the head of man. Man is the head of woman. Men and women are equal, just as God the Father and God the Son are equal. God the Father would never force or harm the Son. And the Son wouldn’t try to manipulate the Father or think He was less than the Father. In the same way, man shouldn’t mistreat woman, and woman shouldn’t think she’s less than man.
    Exodus 21:7 Fathers may sell their daughters into slavery.
    Numbers 5:11-31 How to test a woman for adultery -- If she gets sick after being forced to drink a bowl of floor sweepings, she is guilty.
    Deut. 21:10-14 Taking and disposing of captured women as wives (again, try doing this in Iraq)
    I Cor. 11-7 -- Men are the image and glory of God, but women are only the glory of men
    I Tim. 2:12 Women can not be teachers, and cannot have any authority over men
    I Tim. 2:14 The disobedience in the Garden of Eden was entirely Eve's fault.
    I Peter 3:7 Women are the weaker sex
    I Cor. 14:34-35 Women are not to speak or ask questions in church - they must wait until they get home, and then ask their husbands.
    Ephesians 5:22-24 Wives must stay in submission to their husbands (see also Col. 3:18)
    Deut. 24:1-4 Men can instantly divorce their wives at any time, but
    Romans 7:2 Women can never divorce their husbands.
    Leviticus 15:19-23 Menstruating women are required to leave town for 7 days (on second thought, maybe this wouldn't be such a bad idea
    Leviticus 12:1-8 Childbirth considered a sin; giving birth to a girl is twice as bad as giving birth to a boy.
    Deut. 25:11-12 If a woman pulls on a man's "secrets," then her hand must be cut off.

    ================================================== ==============





    Tock wrote:
    5) It is incredibly repressive, demanding death penalties for a wide array of petty offenses.


    Quote Originally Posted by books555
    5. Which ones Tock. Which petty offenses.
    I'm not surprised that you don't know the answer to your own question, given the sorry state of your bible scholarship.
    Again, read and weep:

    DEATH PENALTY for the following:
    Exodus 21:15 Striking one of your parents
    Exodus 21:16 Stealing a slave
    Exodus 21:16 Cursing one of your parents
    Deut. 21:18-21 Rebelling against your parents
    Leviticus 20:13 Homosexual acts
    Leviticus 20:10 Adultery
    Exodus 22:18 Witchcraft
    Exodus 22:20 Followers of other religions
    Exodus 35:02 Working on the Sabbath
    Leviticus 20:14 Having both a woman AND her mother in your harem
    Leviticus 20:27 Consulting the spirits of the dead
    Deut. 13:5 Interpreting dreams
    Deut. 18:20-22 Inaccurate prophesying
    Leviticus 24:11-16 Blasphemy

    ================================================== =============






    Tock wrote:
    6) Its god endorses the evil practice of slavery.

    Quote Originally Posted by books555
    6.Give examples where God endorses slavery.
    Exodus 21:1-11 Male slaves must be set free after 6 years, but not female slaves
    Exodus 21:20-21 A slaveowner can beat and kill a slave, but only if the slave dies a slow and lingering death
    Exodus 21:32 Slaves are worth 30 coins
    Exodus 22:2-4 Poor thieves are sold into slavery

    ================================================== ==============






    Tock wrote:
    7) Its god endorses polygamy.

    Quote Originally Posted by books555
    7.Some points to keep in mind:

    * The recording of historical acts, including instances of polygamy, is not necessarily an endorsement of it by God. The Bible records both good and bad actions of people, even people considered to be righteous. The fact that David and Solomon had several wives and that it's in the Bible doesn't automatically imply that God was pleased by it, any more than the records of David's adultery and the arguments in the early church implies God's approval of either.

    God does not endorse polygamy.
    Judges 8:28-32 Gideon had "many" wives
    I Kings 11:1-3 Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines

    Well, the Bible certainly takes a strong stand against adultery, homosexuality, and sabbath breaking, but it sure doesn't say much against polygamy. There's no real reason why Bill Gates couldn't have 700 wives and 300 concubines, at least not according to the Bible.

    ================================================== =============





    Tock wrote:
    8) Its god encourages wanton and needless violence.

    Quote Originally Posted by books555
    8. Endorses needless violence, WHERE?
    Genesis 34:1-31 Jehovah's "chosen people" avenge a rape by slaughtering another tribe's males, and confiscating their property, women, and children
    Exodus 32:25-29 Three thousand Israelites executed for fornication
    Judges 11:29-40 Jephthah the Israelite engages in human sacrifice (offering his own daughter) God did not step in and prevent the atrocity.
    Deut 20:10-18 God authorizes the slaughter of several tribes
    I Chronicles 20:3 Picture this scene -- worse than a Friday the 13th slasher flick: And he brought out the people that were in it, and cut them with saws, and with harrows of iron, and with axes. Even so dealt David with all the cities of the children of Ammon. And David and all the people returned to Jerusalem.




    Ya, the Christian Bible is a horrible book, and it is a slander to the Creator of the Univers to suppose that it has any connection with it.

    Yuck.

    -Tock
    Last edited by Tock; 10-11-2005 at 11:38 PM.

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    its hard to debate with you tock because your understanding of so much is so not right. and when i (we) tell you something, you refuse to listen and keep throwing the same wrong reasoning out there.

    it gets old explaining the same thing over and over and over....and over again to someone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    notus, where did you learn hebrew and greek and aramaic?? im studying greek now, but i think it'll be a long time to really know these languages.
    I never learned aramaic. But I studied hebrew and greek in college. I am not a greek or hebrew scholar, in fact, I have forgotten more than I remember. I agree it would take a really long time to know these languages.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tock
    You might like to read some of Robert Ingersoll's stuff . . . he was a famous orator (and corporate lawyer for the railroads) in the late 1800's. He was more of an agnostic than an atheist, but earned the enmity of the church crowd because he publicly questioned the Christian religion (and did it quite well).
    Do a websearch on the fellow, and see what you turn up. I think a few sites have most (if not all) of his writings online.

    -Tock
    Thanks again, I am not atheist but I don't have a problem with people who are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scriptfactory
    Tock is a VERY intelligent person. His intelligence is a big factor in his disbelief. He should be encouraged to question everything, no one wants to be gullible! The problem is that his intelligence is what turns his agnosticism into atheism. I believe it is entirely natural to have doubt. It is very easy to follow this path because it is, and I am inventing this phrase, spiritually tangible. You can easily discredit most situations to simple luck or coincidence. It is rare to actually come into a situation that you know, without a doubt, has a spiritual or supernatural source. Very rare.

    Until Tock lives through a situation where the presence of a higher power is made incredibly apparent (like the one in my "reason I believe" thread) he will stay an atheist.
    Intelligence and disbelief are not Synonymous so you can drop that idea. Unless you think Tock is smarter than an Astro physicist and their are plenty who believe in the Big Bang theory and a Creator.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mark956101957
    Intelligence and disbelief are not Synonymous so you can drop that idea. Unless you think Tock is smarter than an Astro physicist and their are plenty who believe in the Big Bang theory and a Creator.
    You are funny. The majority of scientists are atheists. People who take a strict analytical and logical approach in their work and everyday lives are less inclined to believe in a higher power. You don't have to be an "astrophysicist" to have intelligence.

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    I'm going to attack a couple of your topics real quick, Tock.

    Polygamy is natural. It's as natural as being gay is. Many, many animal species are polygamists so the morality of the issues comes from one's society. Among the greater species in nature polygamy usually consists of one alpha male with a bunch of bitches. Sounds good to me! No, I'm just kidding. My girlfriend is about to drive me crazy. I couldn't deal with 4 or 5 of her...

    Tock wrote:
    6) Its god endorses the evil practice of slavery.

    In the verses you listed they were talking of "Hebrew bondsmen" not slaves. There was a difference. A bondsman was roughly the equivalent of a serf in medieval monarchies. These people were usually debtors or thieves who didn't have the money to pay for the items stolen. If someone stole something from another person they were offered the chance to pay double restitution or become a bondman for a fixed amount of time. People were also allowed to sell their daughters as a "handsmaid" or bondwoman but they had basically no rights... Haha!

    You should read the Darby translation of the Bible for your claims, as the King James and other works aren't as literal and suffer from an overinterpretation at times.


    Exodus
    22:2 If the thief be encountered breaking in, and be smitten so that he die, there shall be no blood-guiltiness for him.
    22:3 If the sun be risen on him, there shall be blood-guiltiness for him; he should have made full restitution: if he had nothing, he would have been sold for his theft.
    22:4 If the stolen thing be actually found alive in his hand, whether it be ox, or ass, or sheep, he shall restore double.

    Further Reading: http://darbybible.com/exodus/21.htm

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    Quote Originally Posted by scriptfactory
    You are funny. The majority of scientists are atheists. People who take a strict analytical and logical approach in their work and everyday lives are less inclined to believe in a higher power. You don't have to be an "astrophysicist" to have intelligence.

    That is not true, the line is drawn right down the middle in the scientific community.

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    Quote Originally Posted by notus
    Thanks again, I am not atheist but I don't have a problem with people who are.
    He wasn't really an atheist . . . more of an agnostic, really. More like Thomas Paine.
    He had no use whatsoever for the Christian religion, even less for Christian Pharasees. Cool guy . . .
    -Tock

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