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Thread: Omar Mukthar

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    Omar Mukthar



    This seems like a theme. But recent history is filled with Western Nations trying to invade and occupy Muslim lands. And after resistance battles the Western nations are defeated, and go back. The French-Algerian war is pretty familiar. But the Italian versus Libyan war is more interesting. Especially the guy named Omar Mukhtar. Whos name has been taken by a Palestinian group who call themselves the Omar Mukhtar Bridgades.

    These events and pictures remind me of Iraq.

    In October 1911 the Italian fleet invaded Libya and the Libyans resisted the invaders with whatever little weapons they could get. The Italians first concentrated their attack on the coastal cities, Tripoli, Benghazi, Misurata and Derna.

    Although the Italians succeeded in controlling most of Libya after years of resistance and struggle (Jihad), they could not control the whole country because the Libyan fighters (Mojahideen) left their homes and headed for the mountains where they planned their attacks against the Italian armies.



    Some of the major Libyan fighters (Mojahideen) against the Italians were Omar Al-Mukhtar. A teacher of the Koran by profession, Mukhtar was also skilled in desert guerrilla tactics. He knew his country’s geography well, and he knew how to use that to his advantage in battles against the Italians, who were not accustomed to desert warfare. He repeatedly led his small, highly mobile groups into successful attacks against the Italians, after which they would fade back into the terrain. Mukhtar’s men skillfully attacked outposts, ambushed troops, and cut lines of supply and communication. The Italians were left astonished and embarrassed to have been outsmarted and outmaneuvered by a mere “bedouin.”

    Omar Al-Mukhtar is considered the great symbol for the Libyan resistance (Jihad) against the Italian occupation. He reorganized the Mojahideen in the Green Mountain (Aj-Jabal Al-Akhdar) North East Libya and he re-ignited the resistance against Italy after World War I when the Italians thought that they succeeded in silencing the Libyan resistance.

    Feeling that they may lose Libya to the Mojahideen, the Italian authorities sent one of their bloodiest high ranking officers Badolio who used the most inhuman measures to end the resistance. He did not just lead the fight against Omar Al-Mukhtar and his comrades, but he also punished even those who were living peacefully in the cities and villages accusing them of helping the Mojahideen.

    The Italian plan was: First to isolate Libya completely and prevent any direct or indirect contact between the Mojahideen and their neighbours who supply the Libyan Mojahideen with weapons and information. Grasiani built a wired wall 300 Kilometers long, 2 meters high and 3 meters wide from Bardiyat Slaiman port North Libya to Al-Jaghboub South East Libya.

    The second part of the plan was to built concentration camps where thousands of Libyans must live under complete control of the Italian army.

    Outside the camps, in the mountains, the Mojahideen continued to fight the Italian occupation, but by the year 1931 the Mojahideen were out of food, out of information and out of ammunitions. The leader of the Mojahideen, Omar Al-Mukhtar, was ill couple of times and many of his comrades asked him to retire and leave the country. He was 80 years old. But he refused and kept fighting and he deserved a name given to him as "The Lion of the Desert."

    Mukhtar’s nearly twenty year stuggle came to an end when he became wounded in battle and was subsequently captured by the Italian army. The Libyan hero was treated like a prize catch by the Italian. Though now in his 70’s, he was shackled with heavy chains from his waist and wrists because of the army’s fear that he just might escape and continue the Libyan resistance.

    However, his resilience had an impact on his jailors, who would often be overwhelmed by Omar's steadfastness. His interrogators later confessed that Omar looked them in the eye and used to read verses of peace from the Holy Quran, as they totured him.

    He was tried, convicted, and sentenced to be executed. When asked if he wished to say anything, Mukhtar replied, “From God we have come, and to God we must return.” On September 16, 1931, in the hope that the Libyan resistance movement would wither and die without him, Mukhtar was hanged in front of his followers on the orders of the Italian court.
    Last edited by CAUSASIAN; 10-17-2005 at 02:28 AM.

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    subhan-allah ......................... Allah ho akbar ................. great article C .

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    There you go, the person that doesnt know anything about the Middle East, posts a story that is a hoax.

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    our zionist friend , enjoys such fruitful articles !

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    Zionist?

    What did you mean by that last sentence...about a Zionist?

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    Quote Originally Posted by AIZ
    What did you mean by that last sentence...about a Zionist?
    nothing bad , its just that bigen and bouncer are supporters of zionism on this board , its an old story , i dunno if u were aorudn when there used to be an israeli girl who used to debate with us around here , SHE WHOOPED everything in her path and we all loved her , and she called herself the queen of zion ............... and these 2 are the zion ministers in her court ........ we all had fun !

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    Both I and my Lebanese brother in arm's [MILITIAGUY] are both strong Zionists too.

    LONG LIVE ISRAEL.

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    Good to hear...I am Israeli and a Zionist...glad to know I have some support

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    Quote Originally Posted by AIZ
    Good to hear...I am Israeli and a Zionist...glad to know I have some support

    The resident Jihads are going to just love you......

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    Why, we have resident Jihadists here? Great to know! I always love a good debate...especially with such open minds as Jihadists. As an Israeli Jew I can tell you that I, along with most Israelis that I know, have no problem with Arabs...we just hate terrorists and don't put up with their nonsense...like many other countries pussyfoot with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AIZ
    Why, we have resident Jihadists here? Great to know! I always love a good debate...especially with such open minds as Jihadists.
    You mean their minds are opened after they have blown themselves up???




    Quote Originally Posted by AIZ
    As an Israeli Jew I can tell you that I, along with most Israelis that I know, have no problem with Arabs...we just hate terrorists and don't put up with their nonsense...like many other countries pussyfoot with.
    I'm beginning to like this guy......

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigen12
    I'm beginning to like this guy......
    Obviously. Zionists will always get along. You, him, BOUNCER, and Money Boss Hustla should all go have a Zionist picnic and talk about ways of killing kids, with swine and stuff. It will be fun.

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    Causasian, wow, I didn't realize how good you were with the soundbytes. Try some intellectual and factual insights into Zionism and then maybe we'll have something to talk about. I've served in the IDF and I, nor any of my fellow soldiers, ever harmed a child. Harming terrorists?...well, that's a different story. Israel doesn't put with Jihad Internationalism like many other weak nations do. We know how to deal with jihadists...maybe that's what it is you don't like...the fact that we continue to defy Islamist's annihilistic and nonsensical acts of terror. Word of advice with me on Israeli-Arab Conflict issues: Back up your shit with facts, not soundbytes of a typical fanaticist...maybe we can actually engage in a good debate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AIZ
    Causasian, wow, I didn't realize how good you were with the soundbytes. Try some intellectual and factual insights into Zionism and then maybe we'll have something to talk about. I've served in the IDF and I, nor any of my fellow soldiers, ever harmed a child. Harming terrorists?...well, that's a different story. Israel doesn't put with Jihad Internationalism like many other weak nations do. We know how to deal with jihadists...maybe that's what it is you don't like...the fact that we continue to defy Islamist's annihilistic and nonsensical acts of terror. Word of advice with me on Israeli-Arab Conflict issues: Back up your shit with facts, not soundbytes of a typical fanaticist...maybe we can actually engage in a good debate.

    Save your breath AIZ. I've tried it all. Won't work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zOaib
    nothing bad , its just that bigen and bouncer are supporters of zionism on this board , its an old story , i dunno if u were aorudn when there used to be an israeli girl who used to debate with us around here , SHE WHOOPED everything in her path and we all loved her , and she called herself the queen of zion ............... and these 2 are the zion ministers in her court ........ we all had fun !

    I spoke to your wife. She says you call for me in your sleep. See a consultant Z....or buy your wife a bat and ask her to beat you with it the way you so much enjoy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CAUSASIAN
    [IMG]. He was 80 years old. But he refused and kept fighting [/B] and he deserved a name given to him as "The Lion of the Desert."

    Mukhtar’s nearly twenty year stuggle came to an end when he became wounded in battle and was subsequently captured by the Italian army. The Libyan hero was treated like a prize catch by the Italian. Though now in his 70’s, he was shackled with heavy chains from his waist and wrists because of the army’s fear that he just might escape and continue the Libyan resistance.

    .

    He was 80 and kept fighting , but captured in his 70's?

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    Quote Originally Posted by AIZ
    Causasian, wow, I didn't realize how good you were with the soundbytes. Try some intellectual and factual insights into Zionism and then maybe we'll have something to talk about.
    Zionism is a Bolshevik movemnet started by Communists. Theodre Heztzl was a Bolshevik. Zionism was at first at its formation opposed by even mainstream Judaism. But eventually all of Judaism accepted it, except small groups like Neturei Karta.

    I've served in the IDF and I, nor any of my fellow soldiers, ever harmed a child. Harming terrorists?...well, that's a different story.
    I am sure you havent. But Israel has done a better job of killing civilians and kids than Islamic Terrorist groups.



    123 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 698 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000



    1,065 Israelis and 3,712 Palestinians have been killed since September 29, 2000.



    0 Israeli homes have been demolished by Palestinians and 4,170 Palestinian homes have been demolished by Israel since September 29, 2000

    Israel doesn't put with Jihad Internationalism like many other weak nations do. We know how to deal with jihadists...maybe that's what it is you don't like...the fact that we continue to defy Islamist's annihilistic and nonsensical acts of terror. Word of advice with me on Israeli-Arab Conflict issues: Back up your shit with facts, not soundbytes of a typical fanaticist...maybe we can actually engage in a good debate.
    I havent seen facts from you. Just "sound bytes". Although I dont support killing civlians. Israel doesnt do a good job fighting them. It just creates more of them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by O.fO.shO
    He was 80 and kept fighting , but captured in his 70's?
    When he was killed he was in his late 70's early 80's.

    The thing I pasted might be discrepant because I copied and pasted from 3 different sources.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rak_Ani
    I spoke to your wife. She says you call for me in your sleep. See a consultant Z....or buy your wife a bat and ask her to beat you with it the way you so much enjoy.
    your words are like FIRE ............. that kindle my every desire , welcome back HUN .................. get ready to RUMBLE !

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    BY THE WAY ! did anyone notice we have a NEW Zionist along with the reappearance of the great Queen of Zion ............... rak were u recruiting all this time looks like u brought a hefty guy , for us to deal with although I PERSONALLY LIKE DEALING WITH U ONLY , i just like that pink name it attracts every electron in me towards it ............... by the way looks like u have a +4 charge on you would like to shair some of my electrons in a covalent bond , i promise ill hybridise my orbitals to accomodate u in every way !

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    Quote Originally Posted by zOaib
    BY THE WAY ! did anyone notice we have a NEW Zionist along with the reappearance of the great Queen of Zion ............... rak were u recruiting all this time looks like u brought a hefty guy , for us to deal with although I PERSONALLY LIKE DEALING WITH U ONLY , i just like that pink name it attracts every electron in me towards it ............... by the way looks like u have a +4 charge on you would like to shair some of my electrons in a covalent bond , i promise ill hybridise my orbitals to accomodate u in every way !



    Ok....

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    HOLY SHIT WHERE DO YOU GET YOUR INFO, bro? al-Jazeera? Palestinian-only sites? I said try factual and intellectual!
    Theodore Herzl was not a Bolshevik. Bolsheviks didn't even come to power until 1917 IN RUSSIA!!! Herzl is not from Russia. He was born in the Austro-Hungarian Empire...not under Tsarist Rule! He founded political Zionism while he was a journalist in France during the Dreyfus Affair. What's the point of explaining? Your shit is all backwards!!!

    You posted: But Israel has done a better job of killing civilians and kids than Islamic Terrorist groups. Then, you posted ridiculous diagrams. Why do you think more kids have been killed on the Palestinian side then the Israeli side...b/c our parents don't allow our children in the streets to be used by other groups as propaganda. Palestinians are told to go to the street...what could be better than dying and going to paradise? You listed 3712 Palestinians killed but you didn't extract how many of those are from Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Tanzim, DFLP, and Al-Aqsa Martyr's Brigade. You just listed Palestinians. How many Israelis out of the 1100 killed so far are listed (by international definitions) as terrorists? You might want to rethink those numbers and realize how OFF they are. You also need to educate yourself on Zionism if you plan on continuing your hatred for it. You might as well know something about it. Don't post stats that are too broad...dig deeper...find more facts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CAUSASIAN
    Zionism is a Bolshevik movemnet started by Communists. Theodre Heztzl was a Bolshevik. Zionism was at first at its formation opposed by even mainstream Judaism. But eventually all of Judaism accepted it, except small groups like Neturei Karta.



    I am sure you havent. But Israel has done a better job of killing civilians and kids than Islamic Terrorist groups.



    123 Israeli children have been killed by Palestinians and 698 Palestinian children have been killed by Israelis since September 29, 2000



    1,065 Israelis and 3,712 Palestinians have been killed since September 29, 2000.



    0 Israeli homes have been demolished by Palestinians and 4,170 Palestinian homes have been demolished by Israel since September 29, 2000



    I haven't seen facts from you. Just "sound bytes". Although I don't support killing civilians. Israel doesn't do a good job fighting them. It just creates more of them.

    Although I am not especially well versed in the specifics of the conflict, I'm intelligent enough to see the broad strokes without the lens of propaganda/dogma clouding my view.

    Also, since I have no interest in winning friends or allies, I call "bullshit" when I see it, regardless of repercussions.

    Beginning (for all intents and purposes) in 1930's, the Zionists began a premeditated and wholesale campaign to rid all of "Mandate Palestine" of all Arabs (read: non-Jews) (the Haganah, Irgun and Stern Gang come to mind immediately), through means of murder, and terrorism. Through the early '80's it seemed that Arabs that were fine with being occupied (servants), were tolerated. Then came the first intifada.

    Since then, the original trend has been continued. Murder, and Terrorism. Breaking children's bones and destroying families homes. All in the name of "bringing peace". Though some "moderate" leaders have attempted to put a kind face on it, the fact remains that all Zionist leaders desire to "re-create" "Greater Israel" from the Mediterranean to the "land of the two rivers" (Iraq). Naturally, no Arabs allowed. Since these insolent Arabs are unwilling to accept their rightful masters (due to the fact that they have this crazy idea that the land, that they've inhabited for thousands of years, is theirs), they must be destroyed or made into useful slaves.

    The modern Likud party has no interest in putting a kind face on it. They want it all. It begins with an open air prison camp in Gaza and an occupied Judea/Samaria, and continues with the US pacifying Iraq (to accept Israeli economic and military dominance, no doubt. Since Israel is little more than an offshore US military base).

    But I digress...

    Racism, and "god said so" are the chief arguments that Israel has in it's favor at this point. That, coupled with America's lust for the oil resources and strategic dominance of the region.

    So, let's tally up the points, shall we? Israel has 1.) "god said so". 2.) Arabs are barbarians (racism). 3.) America's planes, guns and bombs. The native Arabs have 1.) The simple and undeniable fact that they have lived there for thousands of years (often times living in perfect harmony with the indigenous Jewish population prior to the Zionist invasion).

    As an atheist, the "god said so" argument holds little weight with me. As a humanist, racism holds less.

    As for the statement "Arabs are terrorists"? Well, I'd say they learned from the modern masters of the subject.

    Think about this... what if America (speaking to an American audience) were attacked, invaded, terrorized and occupied for well over fifty years. The invaders controlled our economy, self determination and even our individual movements. When we fought back, using the only tools at our disposal, they called us animals, barbarians, terrorists. They claimed that the god that we worshipped was false and incited evil. We saw our parents, brothers, sisters, uncles, aunts, cousins and friends either imprisoned or tortured and killed. All while the world stood back and watched, even sometimes taking the side of the occupiers.

    What would you do? Write letters or give speeches (which would likely mark you for assassination)? Or would you pick up a gun? Remember that a suicide bomber is not the sign of a disordered mind. It is a sign of desperation. A man with nothing, absolutely nothing left to loose, will... should... give his own self in service of that one great goal. Freedom!

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    Your post: Beginning (for all intents and purposes) in 1930's, the Zionists began a premeditated and wholesale campaign to rid all of "Mandate Palestine" of all Arabs (read: non-Jews) (the Haganah, Irgun and Stern Gang come to mind immediately), through means of murder, and terrorism.

    Me: Jews have had a continuous presence in the land of Israel for over 3,000 years, long before the advent of Islam. In reference to Zionism: Jews from the "Pale of Settlement" began to trickle into Palestine (a roman creation not an Arab one) in the late 1880s...not the 1930s. There was never, according to respected historians and academics, a plan to "transfer" the arab population. That, my friend, is Arab propaganda. First, the land was never Palestinian...it was first Ottoman and then British. Today, the majority of those Palestinians who call themselves refugees are, in fact, NOT refugees. A refugee are people that are forced to leave "permanent" or "habitual" homes. In the case of the Arab refugees the definition has been made wider to include "as refugees any persons who had been in 'Palestine' for only 2 years before Israel's declaration of statehood in 1948. TWO YEARS!!!!! They were not original inhabitants of the land...rather, they were trickling into Palestine for work, better living standards, and the like, from Syria, Egypt, Lebanon, and trans-Jordan. As for JEWS: nearl 600,000 Jews were forced to leave Arab countries before and after Israel's declaration of statehood and they were never allowed to return, to take their posscessions, nor compensated for all of their losses. This however, seems to be irrelevant to Arab ears. Only the "poor, suffering Palestinians" seem to matter. The land you call "occupied" is in fact, "disputed" because much of the land was purchased by Jews and then taken during the 1948 war by Jordan and Egypt. When Jordan and Egypt controlled the West Bank and Gaza, they refused to give Palestinians a state...on land that was Jewish-owned...with real documents to prove the sale. The Palestinians, today, have done next to nothing to better themselves...even with Israel being one of the largest giver of money, water, electricity, etc. The Americans and the EU are also large donars...the Arab States...well, pretty much do nothing. Israel gives 30 million, the U.S. 100 million, and the EU close to 50 million...the Arab States...1 million to help their brothers.

    As for the Haganah: sorry bro, not a terrorist group but what became the IDF. The stern gang, which fought the Haganah, was disbanded after 1948.

    As for racism: I guess you don't understand what occurs in the Palestinian text books, state-run TV and radio. In Israel, there is law which you must obey by teaching about true Islamic history, Olso, etc. The Palestinians do no such thing. However, Islamic Jihad's summer camps for children are always full. This is a fact...not soundbytes.

    Your argument: the fact remains that all Zionist leaders desire to "re-create" "Greater Israel" from the Mediterranean to the "land of the two rivers" (Iraq). Naturally, no Arabs allowed.

    WOW...what a load of crap. "All Zionist leaders"...can you speak for them all? I'm a Zionist and I could care less about "greater Israel". Its not that the Arabs didn't allow it...Israel never tried to get it. This is not the goal of Zionism nor has it ever been...it just proves that you have no idea what Zionism is. All I ask is that you give me your brief definition of what Zionism means and stands for...can you do that in your next post without all the cutting and pasting...tell me your definition

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    Quote Originally Posted by Set
    Although I am not especially well versed in the specifics of the conflict, I'm intelligent enough to see the broad strokes without the lens of propaganda/dogma clouding my view.

    Also, since I have no interest in winning friends or allies, I call "bullshit" when I see it, regardless of repercussions.

    Beginning (for all intents and purposes) in 1930's, the Zionists began a premeditated and wholesale campaign to rid all of "Mandate Palestine" of all Arabs (read: non-Jews) (the Haganah, Irgun and Stern Gang come to mind immediately), through means of murder, and terrorism. Through the early '80's it seemed that Arabs that were fine with being occupied (servants), were tolerated. Then came the first intifada.

    Since then, the original trend has been continued. Murder, and Terrorism. Breaking children's bones and destroying families homes. All in the name of "bringing peace". Though some "moderate" leaders have attempted to put a kind face on it, the fact remains that all Zionist leaders desire to "re-create" "Greater Israel" from the Mediterranean to the "land of the two rivers" (Iraq). Naturally, no Arabs allowed. Since these insolent Arabs are unwilling to accept their rightful masters (due to the fact that they have this crazy idea that the land, that they've inhabited for thousands of years, is theirs), they must be destroyed or made into useful slaves.

    The modern Likud party has no interest in putting a kind face on it. They want it all. It begins with an open air prison camp in Gaza and an occupied Judea/Samaria, and continues with the US pacifying Iraq (to accept Israeli economic and military dominance, no doubt. Since Israel is little more than an offshore US military base).

    But I digress...

    Racism, and "god said so" are the chief arguments that Israel has in it's favor at this point. That, coupled with America's lust for the oil resources and strategic dominance of the region.

    So, let's tally up the points, shall we? Israel has 1.) "god said so". 2.) Arabs are barbarians (racism). 3.) America's planes, guns and bombs. The native Arabs have 1.) The simple and undeniable fact that they have lived there for thousands of years (often times living in perfect harmony with the indigenous Jewish population prior to the Zionist invasion).

    As an atheist, the "god said so" argument holds little weight with me. As a humanist, racism holds less.

    As for the statement "Arabs are terrorists"? Well, I'd say they learned from the modern masters of the subject.

    Think about this... what if America (speaking to an American audience) were attacked, invaded, terrorized and occupied for well over fifty years. The invaders controlled our economy, self determination and even our individual movements. When we fought back, using the only tools at our disposal, they called us animals, barbarians, terrorists. They claimed that the god that we worshipped was false and incited evil. We saw our parents, brothers, sisters, uncles, aunts, cousins and friends either imprisoned or tortured and killed. All while the world stood back and watched, even sometimes taking the side of the occupiers.

    What would you do? Write letters or give speeches (which would likely mark you for assassination)? Or would you pick up a gun? Remember that a suicide bomber is not the sign of a disordered mind. It is a sign of desperation. A man with nothing, absolutely nothing left to loose, will... should... give his own self in service of that one great goal. Freedom!
    Good post, I agree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AIZ
    HOLY SHIT WHERE DO YOU GET YOUR INFO, bro? al-Jazeera? Palestinian-only sites? I said try factual and intellectual!
    Theodore Herzl was not a Bolshevik. Bolsheviks didn't even come to power until 1917 IN RUSSIA!!! Herzl is not from Russia. He was born in the Austro-Hungarian Empire...not under Tsarist Rule! He founded political Zionism while he was a journalist in France during the Dreyfus Affair. What's the point of explaining? Your shit is all backwards!!!
    I meant David Ben-Gurion the first Prime Minister of Israel. He was a Bolshevik and a stern admirer of Lenin.

    Zionism is a atheist movement. With absolutely no grounds in the religious sense. Judaism does not support the creation of an Israeli state, before the coming of the Messiah.

    You posted: But Israel has done a better job of killing civilians and kids than Islamic Terrorist groups. Then, you posted ridiculous diagrams. Why do you think more kids have been killed on the Palestinian side then the Israeli side...b/c our parents don't allow our children in the streets to be used by other groups as propaganda. Palestinians are told to go to the street...what could be better than dying and going to paradise? You listed 3712 Palestinians killed but you didn't extract how many of those are from Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Tanzim, DFLP, and Al-Aqsa Martyr's Brigade. You just listed Palestinians. How many Israelis out of the 1100 killed so far are listed (by international definitions) as terrorists? You might want to rethink those numbers and realize how OFF they are. You also need to educate yourself on Zionism if you plan on continuing your hatred for it. You might as well know something about it. Don't post stats that are too broad...dig deeper...find more facts.
    No its from a very even-handed site.

    http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

    Check it out and look for yourself. All those number are correct, its not suprising actually, I was expecting the numbers to be even more.

    That is what I call such good propoganda. The fact that when kids are killed, they say the kids were fighting. When civlians are killed they say they are part of terrorist groups. So there are no Palestinian civlians according to Israelies. There are no borders of civility. Anyone can be a target, even Palestinian kids. This logic is no better than the logic of Hamas and Islamic Jihad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AIZ
    Me: Jews have had a continuous presence in the land of Israel for over 3,000 years, long before the advent of Islam.
    But Arabs were present just as long as the Jews were present in Israel/Palestine. The Bible can tell you that.

    There was never, according to respected historians and academics, a plan to "transfer" the arab population. That, my friend, is Arab propaganda.
    That is totally false. I will give some examples.

    The British Peel Commission in 1937, a "Population Transfer Committee" was appointed by the Jewish Agency to come up with plans to rid the Jewish State of its Palestinian Arabs. Joseph Weitz, director of the JNF, who served on the Population Transfer Committee, developed a plan for this purpose. In his report, Weitz wrote that the transfer of the Arab population from the Jewish areas "does not serve only one aim - to diminish the Arab population. It also serves a second purpose by no means less important, which is to evacuate land now cultivated by Arabs and thus release it for Jewish settlement."

    Also Ben-Gurion was a stern support of compulsory transfer, he felt and Israeli state with a large Arab population would spell Israel's doom.

    First, the land was never Palestinian...it was first Ottoman and then British.
    But it still had people of Arab ethnicity living there, and who were the majority. The word "Palestinian" isnt necessary. But they are distinct with their own culture that is different and seperate from other Arabs in the area.

    As for JEWS: nearl 600,000 Jews were forced to leave Arab countries before and after Israel's declaration of statehood and they were never allowed to return, to take their posscessions, nor compensated for all of their losses.
    No before, but after the creation of Israel.

    The Palestinians, today, have done next to nothing to better themselves...even with Israel being one of the largest giver of money, water, electricity, etc. The Americans and the EU are also large donars...the Arab States...well, pretty much do nothing. Israel gives 30 million, the U.S. 100 million, and the EU close to 50 million...the Arab States...1 million to help their brothers.
    Again that is totally false.

    You are looking at UN figures. Muslims/Arabs donate to Palestinians through various sources, just not the UN. There are hundreds of Islamic charities and organizations that give donations.

    I have the exact figures the Palestinians got from Arab countries in late 2001. For 1 year.

    These were donated to the Al-Quds Fund and the Al-Aqsa Fund.

    Syria ($7 million), Algeria ($30 million), Kuwait ($150 million), Jordan ($2 million), Bahrain ($3 million), Qatar ($50 million) and Oman ($10 million).

    Saudi Arabia has given $200 million from a total of $240 million, while Egypt paid $20 million from $30 million, the United Arab Emirates $92 million from $150 million and Yemen $2 million from $10 million.

    Your argument: the fact remains that all Zionist leaders desire to "re-create" "Greater Israel" from the Mediterranean to the "land of the two rivers" (Iraq). Naturally, no Arabs allowed.

    WOW...what a load of crap. "All Zionist leaders"...can you speak for them all? I'm a Zionist and I could care less about "greater Israel". Its not that the Arabs didn't allow it...Israel never tried to get it. This is not the goal of Zionism nor has it ever been...it just proves that you have no idea what Zionism is. All I ask is that you give me your brief definition of what Zionism means and stands for...can you do that in your next post without all the cutting and pasting...tell me your definition
    Well that is also not totally true.



    That was the symbol of Irgun, which shows a map of Ertez Israel from the Nile to the Euphrates. And the leader of Irgun was Menachem Begin who later became the Prime Minister of Israel.

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    Listen, this is my last post with you. Not because I don't like to debate...I enjoy it very much. It's b/c your information is revisionist history and lacks a factual base. To say that Ben-Gurion was a stern supporter of "compulsory transfer" is baseless and irresponsible. It is absolutely false. To show me pictures of the Irgun, a group dismantled nearly 60 years ago is irrelvant to the issues today. To say that Judaism does not recognize modern-Israel/Zionism is myopic. You are only referring to the ultra-orthodox...not the 90% secular Jews. To mention that the bible is a source to understand that Jews and Arabs lived together in Israel/Palestine is wrong. To state that Jews were expelled from Arab lands "after 1948" is incorrect. To state the falsities that you listed about the Peel Commission of 1937 is terrible, considering the Arabs were offered up to 80% of the land but turned it down while the Jews accepted the 20% plus over 500,000 arabs. You conveniently left out 1947 Partition Plan, and numerous other attempts during the '48 war and after hostiities ended in '49 when Israel defeated 5 Arab armies. You are a typical revisionist, a speaker for anti-Zionism, an apologist, and worst of all, your facts, most of them, are without merit. Like I said, last post. I'd rather debate with someone who can at least differentiate between true history and revisionism. I can't speak for your family but my family fought in the wars of '48-'73. We understand both sides. We, in no way, try to rewrite history. If you feel the need to have the last word, I invite you to reply but I'm done posting with you. FYI: You also failed to give your own definition of what Zionism means...and not what wikipedia tells you it means.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by AIZ
    Listen, this is my last post with you. Not because I don't like to debate...I enjoy it very much. It's b/c your information is revisionist history and lacks a factual base. To say that Ben-Gurion was a stern supporter of "compulsory transfer" is baseless and irresponsible. It is absolutely false. To show me pictures of the Irgun, a group dismantled nearly 60 years ago is irrelvant to the issues today. To say that Judaism does not recognize modern-Israel/Zionism is myopic. You are only referring to the ultra-orthodox...not the 90% secular Jews. To mention that the bible is a source to understand that Jews and Arabs lived together in Israel/Palestine is wrong. To state that Jews were expelled from Arab lands "after 1948" is incorrect. To state the falsities that you listed about the Peel Commission of 1937 is terrible, considering the Arabs were offered up to 80% of the land but turned it down while the Jews accepted the 20% plus over 500,000 arabs. You conveniently left out 1947 Partition Plan, and numerous other attempts during the '48 war and after hostiities ended in '49 when Israel defeated 5 Arab armies. You are a typical revisionist, a speaker for anti-Zionism, an apologist, and worst of all, your facts, most of them, are without merit. Like I said, last post. I'd rather debate with someone who can at least differentiate between true history and revisionism. I can't speak for your family but my family fought in the wars of '48-'73. We understand both sides. We, in no way, try to rewrite history. If you feel the need to have the last word, I invite you to reply but I'm done posting with you. FYI: You also failed to give your own definition of what Zionism means...and not what wikipedia tells you it means.

    You're wasting your time. He's not paying attention to what you're saying and he can't be bothered with backing up any of what he types with proof. He will never hold a decent debate with you because once he realises he's wrong he's going to start avoiding your questions, twisting your words, and if you're lucky enough his followers will boycott you. (And those of you concerned: ). I gave up on him and ever since I did he's been trying to sound more and more extreme just to get a response from me (search his posts and see for yourself).

    Regarding the rest of them:

    Zoaib is a convert. He's an American born as a Christian and he converted to Islam. He suffers from a problem you might be familiar with from our side - Chozrim Betshuva (that was Hebrew) - he's severely brainwashed.

    And M'guy - don't even bother reading anything he writes that's longer than two lines. He's a Lebanese who claims to belong to Hizballa. Couch terrorist, or something like that.

    If you're like me, you won't resist the temptation and will argue with them until you're tired of repeating yourself. In that case you might as well know who you're dealing with.

    Shavu'a Tov.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rak_Ani
    You're wasting your time. He's not paying attention to what you're saying and he can't be bothered with backing up any of what he types with proof. He will never hold a decent debate with you because once he realises he's wrong he's going to start avoiding your questions, twisting your words, and if you're lucky enough his followers will boycott you. (And those of you concerned: ). I gave up on him and ever since I did he's been trying to sound more and more extreme just to get a response from me (search his posts and see for yourself).

    Regarding the rest of them:

    Zoaib is a convert. He's an American born as a Christian and he converted to Islam. He suffers from a problem you might be familiar with from our side - Chozrim Betshuva (that was Hebrew) - he's severely brainwashed.

    And M'guy - don't even bother reading anything he writes that's longer than two lines. He's a Lebanese who claims to belong to Hizballa. Couch terrorist, or something like that.

    If you're like me, you won't resist the temptation and will argue with them until you're tired of repeating yourself. In that case you might as well know who you're dealing with.

    Shavu'a Tov.

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    Queen of Zion, thanks for the heads-up. Yeah, after the 1st post I figured this guy was a waste of time. Shavuah Tov to you as well...AIZ

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by AIZ
    Queen of Zion, thanks for the heads-up. Yeah, after the 1st post I figured this guy was a waste of time. Shavuah Tov to you as well...AIZ
    My nick isn't Queen of Zion. That's just a title given to me by someone here.

    Ata gar ba'aretz?

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Set
    Although I am not especially well versed in the specifics of the conflict, I'm intelligent enough to see the broad strokes without the lens of propaganda/dogma clouding my view.

    Also, since I have no interest in winning friends or allies, I call "bullshit" when I see it, regardless of repercussions.

    Beginning (for all intents and purposes) in 1930's, the Zionists began a premeditated and wholesale campaign to rid all of "Mandate Palestine" of all Arabs (read: non-Jews) (the Haganah, Irgun and Stern Gang come to mind immediately), through means of murder, and terrorism. Through the early '80's it seemed that Arabs that were fine with being occupied (servants), were tolerated. Then came the first intifada.

    Since then, the original trend has been continued. Murder, and Terrorism. Breaking children's bones and destroying families homes. All in the name of "bringing peace". Though some "moderate" leaders have attempted to put a kind face on it, the fact remains that all Zionist leaders desire to "re-create" "Greater Israel" from the Mediterranean to the "land of the two rivers" (Iraq). Naturally, no Arabs allowed. Since these insolent Arabs are unwilling to accept their rightful masters (due to the fact that they have this crazy idea that the land, that they've inhabited for thousands of years, is theirs), they must be destroyed or made into useful slaves.

    The modern Likud party has no interest in putting a kind face on it. They want it all. It begins with an open air prison camp in Gaza and an occupied Judea/Samaria, and continues with the US pacifying Iraq (to accept Israeli economic and military dominance, no doubt. Since Israel is little more than an offshore US military base).

    But I digress...

    Racism, and "god said so" are the chief arguments that Israel has in it's favor at this point. That, coupled with America's lust for the oil resources and strategic dominance of the region.

    So, let's tally up the points, shall we? Israel has 1.) "god said so". 2.) Arabs are barbarians (racism). 3.) America's planes, guns and bombs. The native Arabs have 1.) The simple and undeniable fact that they have lived there for thousands of years (often times living in perfect harmony with the indigenous Jewish population prior to the Zionist invasion).

    As an atheist, the "god said so" argument holds little weight with me. As a humanist, racism holds less.

    As for the statement "Arabs are terrorists"? Well, I'd say they learned from the modern masters of the subject.

    Think about this... what if America (speaking to an American audience) were attacked, invaded, terrorized and occupied for well over fifty years. The invaders controlled our economy, self determination and even our individual movements. When we fought back, using the only tools at our disposal, they called us animals, barbarians, terrorists. They claimed that the god that we worshipped was false and incited evil. We saw our parents, brothers, sisters, uncles, aunts, cousins and friends either imprisoned or tortured and killed. All while the world stood back and watched, even sometimes taking the side of the occupiers.

    What would you do? Write letters or give speeches (which would likely mark you for assassination)? Or would you pick up a gun? Remember that a suicide bomber is not the sign of a disordered mind. It is a sign of desperation. A man with nothing, absolutely nothing left to loose, will... should... give his own self in service of that one great goal. Freedom!
    thanks for the input on Zionism 101 .
    good post

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rak_Ani
    You're wasting your time. He's not paying attention to what you're saying and he can't be bothered with backing up any of what he types with proof. He will never hold a decent debate with you because once he realises he's wrong he's going to start avoiding your questions, twisting your words, and if you're lucky enough his followers will boycott you. (And those of you concerned: ). I gave up on him and ever since I did he's been trying to sound more and more extreme just to get a response from me (search his posts and see for yourself).

    Regarding the rest of them:

    Zoaib is a convert. He's an American born as a Christian and he converted to Islam. He suffers from a problem you might be familiar with from our side - Chozrim Betshuva (that was Hebrew) - he's severely brainwashed.

    And M'guy - don't even bother reading anything he writes that's longer than two lines. He's a Lebanese who claims to belong to Hizballa. Couch terrorist, or something like that.

    If you're like me, you won't resist the temptation and will argue with them until you're tired of repeating yourself. In that case you might as well know who you're dealing with.

    Shavu'a Tov.
    shalom ! ya habibi

    personally i dont hate u RAK_Ani , i just hate the politics u or we discuss , and to be honest politics are games played by bigger players , and we are squashed to hate each other becuase of their games ........... i hope u can agree with me on what i just said ...... !

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by zOaib
    shalom ! ya habibi

    personally i dont hate u RAK_Ani , i just hate the politics u or we discuss , and to be honest politics are games played by bigger players , and we are squashed to hate each other becuase of their games ........... i hope u can agree with me on what i just said ...... !

    I never said anyone hates anyone. Where did u get that idea?

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    zOaib, the "Zionism 101" that you enjoyed is far from intellectual and factual historical gold. If you want good, nonbiased references I would be glad to help. By the way, you stated: "politics are games played by bigger players , and we are squashed to hate each other becuase of their games..." I disagree. You decide, no matter what politicians may say, what you are going to believe. Follow true history...if you do that, you will find that "hate" is not an element that fits. I'm an Israeli Jew and I do not hate Arab-Muslims or Arab-Christians...not by any means. About terrorists...we all hate them!!!

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    Rak Ani...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rak_Ani
    My nick isn't Queen of Zion. That's just a title given to me by someone here.

    Ata gar ba'aretz?
    Ken, ani po ba'aretz. Ba'rur sh'hashem shelach who lo "Queen of Zion"...aval ani lo makir et a shem Ha'amiti shelach. B'Forum ha'zeh, tikri li "AIZ"...yotar tov ca'cha. Tov, yesh li hamon la'asot machar az ani holech lishon. Sh'yihiyeh lach shavuah nifla v'nipagesh po b'forum b'karov...lyla tov

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rak_Ani
    I never said anyone hates anyone. Where did u get that idea?
    i know u didnt i said that in a general sense , U r sooo Edgey Hun.

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