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  1. #1
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    God Told George To Use Torture



    McCain passes amendment to end torture of detainees; Bush threatens veto.
    www.kuro5hin.org/section/fnp

    Army Field Manual's section on interrogation techniques:
    "The use of force, mental torture, threats, insults, or exposure to unpleasant and inhumane treatment of any kind is prohibited by law and is neither authorized nor condoned by the US Government. Experience indicates that the use of force is not necessary to gain the cooperation of sources for interrogation. Therefore, the use of force is a poor technique, as it yields unreliable results, may damage subsequent collection efforts, and can induce the source to say whatever he thinks the interrogator wants to hear."

    I suppose if Bush had served during Viet Nam rather than deserting, he might know these rules.

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    What our military does is not torture. Hooking jumper cables up to their balls would be torture.

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    First off, GW doesn't do a damn thing until Rove or Cheaney tell him too...

    RA: Sorry bro, we use cruel and unusual forms of punishment... America does not adhear to the standards we want others go by... "the geneva conventions"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mesomorphyl
    First off, GW doesn't do a damn thing until Rove or Cheaney tell him too...

    RA: Sorry bro, we use cruel and unusual forms of punishment... America does not adhear to the standards we want others go by... "the geneva conventions"
    If your talking about that fiasco at abu grabe(spelling?) then that is not a good example. The people who did that got punished and its not standard military procedure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by roidattack
    If your talking about that fiasco at abu grabe(spelling?) then that is not a good example. The people who did that got punished and its not standard military procedure.
    How about everyone at guantanamo bay? They are not even considered POW's... They have zero rights. They get tourtured. Any military personel that sympathizes with them are called terrorists and are arrested as soon as they hit stateside. There are over 20 prisoners that are on hunger strike as they rip up and kick around the quran. How will the innocent ones ever get free if they are not allowed representation(they never will as that would end up being an embarrasement to the administration).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mesomorphyl
    How about everyone at guantanamo bay? They are not even considered POW's... They have zero rights. They get tourtured. Any military personel that sympathizes with them are called terrorists and are arrested as soon as they hit stateside. There are over 20 prisoners that are on hunger strike as they rip up and kick around the quran. How will the innocent ones ever get free if they are not allowed representation(they never will as that would end up being an embarrasement to the administration).
    very true , what sucks is MOST Americans are Ignorant to the TRUTH ! we and all of US are busy making money and getting a loan for that next house or a new car ............... and ofcourse DEBT controls the masses , u dont need force these days to control people , just give them a great PLATINUM line of credit !


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    I always said god was a sadistic SOB , now i have proof

    seriously , torturing is wrong it costs more money to keep these people alive , they should shoot them on site and not take any prisoners , they are not pets of theirs to feed , provide a place to sleep , etc... they are war crminials they should be shot on site.

    and for those who feel sorry for them , Im sure they felt the same way about americans in 9/11 , in israel ,iraq ,recent egyptian bombings , etc....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mesomorphyl
    How about everyone at guantanamo bay? They are not even considered POW's... They have zero rights. They get tourtured. Any military personel that sympathizes with them are called terrorists and are arrested as soon as they hit stateside. There are over 20 prisoners that are on hunger strike as they rip up and kick around the quran. How will the innocent ones ever get free if they are not allowed representation(they never will as that would end up being an embarrasement to the administration).
    Good! You have to remember that these people were found on the battle field shooting at OUR soldiers. They didnt go into some innocent persons house and send them to guantanamo.

    Its like the captain that held a gun to the head of an enemy soldier and even shot next to him to get information. He did that and saved many lives.

    Frankly, I wouldnt mind if they used harsher interrogation techniques.

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    Quote Originally Posted by roidattack
    Good! You have to remember that these people were found on the battle field shooting at OUR soldiers. They didnt go into some innocent persons house and send them to guantanamo.


    Frankly, I wouldnt mind if they used harsher interrogation techniques.
    The first part you are wrong... they did go into houses and sent people they suspected. They also took people off international flights they suspected as well. You should find that info at democracynow.org or innreport.net

    Harsher interrogations would make us like them, I thought that is what we are fighting against.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mesomorphyl
    The first part you are wrong... they did go into houses and sent people they suspected. They also took people off international flights they suspected as well. You should find that info at democracynow.org or innreport.net

    Harsher interrogations would make us like them, I thought that is what we are fighting against.

    So we are supposed to not use techniques that would save possibly thousands or millions of lives? Im not talking about popping their eyes out or something, just enough to get the info.

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    Quote Originally Posted by roidattack
    So we are supposed to not use techniques that would save possibly thousands or millions of lives? Im not talking about popping their eyes out or something, just enough to get the info.
    No on the torture. Sorry. These techniques are cruel and will bring about false confessions just to stop the torture. Remember salem witch trials? How about the spanish inquisition?

    If we let some of it go... it all is a go. Incrementalism at its finest. Who determines how much we torture or where that line is? Is it ok to torture u.s. citizens then? Maybe not today, but what about if you could torture because of a political affiliation? One that only takes the corporate controlled media to put a spin on...

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    with how we know our troops, our pows have and will be treated, i dont have a problem with our soldiers doing whatever to those ppl... any of em

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    Quote Originally Posted by Decadbal
    with how we know our troops, our pows have and will be treated, i dont have a problem with our soldiers doing whatever to those ppl... any of em
    I agree, those people will take a path we should not choose to take. That is my point. Then once we do go that route where will it stop? It sucks knowing our troups will get no respect or humane treatment, but does that mean we need to do the same? I thought we were fighting against people like that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by roidattack
    Good! You have to remember that these people were found on the battle field shooting at OUR soldiers. They didnt go into some innocent persons house and send them to guantanamo.

    Its like the captain that held a gun to the head of an enemy soldier and even shot next to him to get information. He did that and saved many lives.

    Frankly, I wouldnt mind if they used harsher interrogation techniques.
    have u even read into how most of the POWs were captured at guantanamo bay (sp?) ........ or are u just blowing this all from the air above ! i know u r a patriot that doesnt mean u r going to blind all the true facts out, that just shows plain ignorance and a mind made up of a personal BIAS !

    ALSO maybe you would like to expalin why we recently bombed 2 iraqi villages under suspicion of the few ppl responsible for the bombings in that area , we killed more non suspect civilains including , children , women and men ......... to us its collateral damage but to those people family , maybe when they spit on our faces , we should have the dignity to respect why they do hate us so much .

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    Quote Originally Posted by roidattack
    What our military does is not torture. Hooking jumper cables up to their balls would be torture.
    that would also be awesome. i love when the scumbags our soldiers capture get tortured.

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    Quote Originally Posted by roidattack
    If your talking about that fiasco at abu grabe(spelling?) then that is not a good example. The people who did that got punished and its not standard military procedure.
    The people who did that are in the Bush administration, they just sacrificed low level people doing what they were told.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Decadbal
    with how we know our troops, our pows have and will be treated, i dont have a problem with our soldiers doing whatever to those ppl... any of em
    Washington's Crossing by David Hackett Fischer
    In New York, [George] Washington had wept while watching through a spyglass as the British massacred Americans who had surrendered. But Washington, Fischer writes, "often reminded his men that they were an army of liberty and freedom, and that the rights of humanity for which they were fighting should extend even to their enemies." To the American officer in charge of 221 prisoners taken at Princeton, Washington said, "Treat them with humanity, and let them have no reason to complain of our copying the brutal example of the British army in their treatment of our unfortunate brethren."
    Last edited by wolfuncle; 10-18-2005 at 09:39 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MuckDog
    that would also be awesome. i love when the scumbags our soldiers capture get tortured.
    That is very sad and hateful dude. How can inhumane acts support freedom and democracy, those acts only support fascism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zOaib
    have u even read into how most of the POWs were captured at guantanamo bay (sp?) ........ or are u just blowing this all from the air above ! i know u r a patriot that doesnt mean u r going to blind all the true facts out, that just shows plain ignorance and a mind made up of a personal BIAS !

    ALSO maybe you would like to expalin why we recently bombed 2 iraqi villages under suspicion of the few ppl responsible for the bombings in that area , we killed more non suspect civilains including , children , women and men ......... to us its collateral damage but to those people family , maybe when they spit on our faces , we should have the dignity to respect why they do hate us so much .

    1. Point me to the proof that the people being held there are innocent.

    2. There is always going to be collateral damage in war.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfuncle
    The people who did that are in the Bush administration, they just sacrificed low level people doing what they were told.

    This is a wild accusation with no fact basis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfuncle
    That is very sad and hateful dude. How can inhumane acts support freedom and democracy, those acts only support fascism.

    If your brother or sister were in the military and got their life saved by one of these "inhumane" acts, you would not care how it was done. Its not fascism, its logic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by roidattack
    1. Point me to the proof that the people being held there are innocent.

    2. There is always going to be collateral damage in war.
    1. The fact they are held secretly without even having pow status means we will never know if some of those people that were gathered up are innocent. So it looks like we are at a stalemate on this one.

    2. Collateral damage is a political packaged word meaning "innocent deaths", so lets just call it what it is... innocent deaths.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mesomorphyl
    1. The fact they are held secretly without even having pow status means we will never know if some of those people that were gathered up are innocent. So it looks like we are at a stalemate on this one.

    2. Collateral damage is a political packaged word meaning "innocent deaths", so lets just call it what it is... innocent deaths.
    Why do you think they are being held that way? Not because they are innocent. Because if you labeled them pows the dems would be screaming even more about their treatment and the fact that we are holding them at all.

    Show me a war that has not had "innocent deaths" Just because you put it in a provacative way doesnt mean its worse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by roidattack
    Why do you think they are being held that way? Not because they are innocent. Because if you labeled them pows the dems would be screaming even more about their treatment and the fact that we are holding them at all.

    Show me a war that has not had "innocent deaths" Just because you put it in a provacative way doesnt mean its worse.
    why are they being held that way? well let's put it this way, Illinois has since eliminated the death penalty because there were found to be numerous innocent people being executed and spending 20+ years on the row. And those people had trials and hearings, the people in qitmo have had none of that. They were just corralled and herded there, I guarantee you there are innocent people in gitmo.

    Now you always claim that we are fighting for freedom and against ruthless terrorists. When we become terrorists by utilizing their tactics we fight for them and the whole reason you think we are fighting is immediately proved false. '"when you stare into the abyss, the abyss stares back".

    What meso is saying is that if we are really the soldiers you think we are, then using those tactics isn't even an option b/c then by default we aren't those soldiers, we are just american terrorists. but that's ok with most americans b/c all they know is how to feel victimized and hateful. which is of course ridiculous and infantile.

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    Quote Originally Posted by symatech
    why are they being held that way? well let's put it this way, Illinois has since eliminated the death penalty because there were found to be numerous innocent people being executed and spending 20+ years on the row. And those people had trials and hearings, the people in qitmo have had none of that. They were just corralled and herded there, I guarantee you there are innocent people in gitmo.

    Now you always claim that we are fighting for freedom and against ruthless terrorists. When we become terrorists by utilizing their tactics we fight for them and the whole reason you think we are fighting is immediately proved false. '"when you stare into the abyss, the abyss stares back".

    What meso is saying is that if we are really the soldiers you think we are, then using those tactics isn't even an option b/c then by default we aren't those soldiers, we are just american terrorists. but that's ok with most americans b/c all they know is how to feel victimized and hateful. which is of course ridiculous and infantile.

    So by that logic an athlete should not use steroids just because the other guy is doing it. Then, because the athlete is not using hes going to get his ass kicked. That equates to American soldiers lives. Their lives matter to me more than the g*d d*mn moral high ground.

  26. #26
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    9/11 was planned

    iraq has no wepons of mass destruction



    bottom line: bush is a ****tard

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    Quote Originally Posted by roidattack
    So by that logic an athlete should not use steroids just because the other guy is doing it. Then, because the athlete is not using hes going to get his ass kicked. That equates to American soldiers lives. Their lives matter to me more than the g*d d*mn moral high ground.
    Abusing someone who cannot protect themselves has nothing to do with protecting soldiers in the field.

    "We, the undersigned, are retired professional military leaders of the U.S. Armed Forces. We
    write to express our deep concern about the nomination of Alberto R. Gonzales to be Attorney
    General, and to urge you to explore in detail his views concerning the role of the Geneva
    Conventions in U.S. detention and interrogation policy and practice."

    Brigadier General David M. Brahms (Ret. USMC)
    Brigadier General James Cullen (Ret. USA)
    Brigadier General Evelyn P. Foote (Ret. USA)
    Lieutenant General Robert Gard (Ret. USA)
    Vice Admiral Lee F. Gunn (Ret. USN)
    Rear Admiral Don Guter (Ret. USN)
    General Joseph Hoar (Ret. USMC)
    Rear Admiral John D. Hutson (Ret. USN)
    Lieutenant General Claudia Kennedy (Ret. USA)
    General Merrill McPeak (Ret. USAF)
    Major General Melvyn Montano (Ret. USAF Nat. Guard)
    General John Shalikashvili (Ret. USA)

    http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/us_l...ary_010405.pdf

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    When you pull soldiers out of the ghetto......you get ghetto mentality.......
    the Iraqis and US military deserve each other........bunch of violence prone assholes.......the more killled the better.......eliminate their defective genes
    and evolution can move on.......

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    Quote Originally Posted by Badgerman
    When you pull soldiers out of the ghetto......you get ghetto mentality.......
    the Iraqis and US military deserve each other........bunch of violence prone assholes.......the more killled the better.......eliminate their defective genes
    and evolution can move on.......

    It makes me sick that you live in this country.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfuncle
    Abusing someone who cannot protect themselves has nothing to do with protecting soldiers in the field.

    "We, the undersigned, are retired professional military leaders of the U.S. Armed Forces. We
    write to express our deep concern about the nomination of Alberto R. Gonzales to be Attorney
    General, and to urge you to explore in detail his views concerning the role of the Geneva
    Conventions in U.S. detention and interrogation policy and practice."

    Brigadier General David M. Brahms (Ret. USMC)
    Brigadier General James Cullen (Ret. USA)
    Brigadier General Evelyn P. Foote (Ret. USA)
    Lieutenant General Robert Gard (Ret. USA)
    Vice Admiral Lee F. Gunn (Ret. USN)
    Rear Admiral Don Guter (Ret. USN)
    General Joseph Hoar (Ret. USMC)
    Rear Admiral John D. Hutson (Ret. USN)
    Lieutenant General Claudia Kennedy (Ret. USA)
    General Merrill McPeak (Ret. USAF)
    Major General Melvyn Montano (Ret. USAF Nat. Guard)
    General John Shalikashvili (Ret. USA)

    http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/us_l...ary_010405.pdf


    All with political agendas, Im sure. It still does not prove my last point wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by elite2kr
    9/11 was planned

    iraq has no wepons of mass destruction



    bottom line: bush is a ****tard

    Why didnt you just say blah, blah, blah?? You sound like every other pos democrat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by roidattack
    It makes me sick that you live in this country.
    You're just a war monger who needs to put a gun to your head and pull the trigger.........you'll end up an angry old retiree who bitches all the time and abuses checkout ladies.....we know your type.

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    When you're a drooling old man in a wheel chair..........maybe some 5'2" nurse will slap some sense into you.......

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    Quote Originally Posted by Badgerman
    You're just a war monger who needs to put a gun to your head and pull the trigger.........you'll end up an angry old retiree who bitches all the time and abuses checkout ladies.....we know your type.

    Looks like I struck a nerve badger..Me a war monger..lol. Ive always thought we should have the strongest military in the world to deter ppl but prior to 9/11 I wasnt wishing for war.

    Your just an old hippie that probably smokes dope every night and re-lives the glory days of protesting and making "The Man" pay.

    How did you know that I like abusing checkout ladies? lol.

    One more question. Of the two of us posting who sounds more bitter and angry???? I dont think its me potboy...
    Last edited by RA; 10-21-2005 at 07:24 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Badgerman
    When you're a drooling old man in a wheel chair..........maybe some 5'2" nurse will slap some sense into you.......

    Don't mean to interrupt,

    However seeing as this act of violence didn't work for you, why do you think it will work for Roid???

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by roidattack
    All with political agendas, Im sure. It still does not prove my last point wrong.
    It is easy to say things with out any real info to back it up. Have you read the rewritten definition of torture?

    "Military necessity does not admit of cruelty--that is, the infliction of suffering for the sake of suffering or for revenge, nor of maiming or wounding except in fight, nor of torture to extort confessions.”
    General Orders No. 100 President Abraham Lincoln

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigen12
    Don't mean to interrupt,

    However seeing as this act of violence didn't work for you, why do you think it will work for Roid???

    Damn.....you're right.......except my wife is 5'3".......

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    Nearly every national army has the same "Army Field Manual's section on interrogation techniques"...doesn't mean anyone actually follows them to a t. In times of war...it is likely that no one really adheres completely to the rule book. Its for the public, more so. Nevertheless, there are somethings that are necessary in order to save lives...its the "bigger picture" that matters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfuncle
    It is easy to say things with out any real info to back it up. Have you read the rewritten definition of torture?

    "Military necessity does not admit of cruelty--that is, the infliction of suffering for the sake of suffering or for revenge, nor of maiming or wounding except in fight, nor of torture to extort confessions.”
    General Orders No. 100 President Abraham Lincoln

    1. This STILL does not prove my point wrong.

    2. If your not getting any answers from torture then your not doing it right.

    3. Lincoln was a great president. Not sure you should be quoting a man you would spit on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by roidattack
    Lincoln was a great president. Not sure you should be quoting a man you would spit on.
    HEY HEY HEY... The reason we say the things we do is because we agree with those great men... Lincoln, Washington, Jefferson, Madison, Adams, Paine...

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