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    Noah's Ark ??? your thoughts, please read if you responded to the "do u hate god post

    Noah's ark is the boat built by the Biblical character Noah. At the command of God, according to the story, Noah was to build a boat that could accommodate his extended family, about 50,000 species of animals, and about one million species of insects, how is that possible?? The craft had to be constructed to endure a divinely planned universal flood aimed at destroying every other person and animal on earth (except, I suppose, those animals whose habitat is liquid). This was no problem, according to calculations from Genesis 6:15 that the ark was 450 feet long, 75 feet wide and 45 feet deep. This is equivalent to "522 standard stock cars or 8 freight trains of 65 cars each." By some divine calculation he figures that all the insect species and the worms could fit in 21 box cars. He could be right, though i do not think
    Those not familiar with the story might wonder why God would destroy nearly all the descendants of all of the creatures he had created. The story is that God was displeased with all of his human creations, except for Noah and his family. Annihilating those one is displeased with has become a familiar tactic of the followers of this and many other gods.

    Despite the bad example God set for Noah's descendants--imagine a human parent drowning his or her children because they were "not righteous"--the story remains a favorite among children. God likes good people. He lets them ride on a boat with a bunch of friendly animals. He shows them a great rainbow after the storm. And they all live happily ever after. Even adults like the story, though they might see it as an allegory with some sort of spiritual message, such as God is all-powerful and we owe everything, even our very existence to the Creator. Furthermore, the Creator expects us to behave ourselves. But there are many who take the story literally.

    According to the story told in chapter 7 of Genesis, Noah, his crew, and the animals lived together for more than 6 months before the floodwaters receded. There are a few minor logistical problems with this arrangement, but before getting to them, there is one other thing that needs commenting on. It is obvious that floods are no laughing matter. The destruction of life and property caused by floods has plagued many animals, not just humans, from time immemorial. To watch one's family or home swept away in floodwaters must be a terrible spectacle. To see one's children drown, one's life and dreams washed away in an instant, must be a devastating experience. But if one were to discover that the flood was not a whimsical effect of chance natural events, not unplanned and purposeless, but rather the malicious and willful act of a conscious being, one might add rage to the feelings of devastation. I suppose one could argue that it is God's world; he created it, so he can destroy it if he feels like it. But such an attitude seems inappropriate for an All-Good, Loving God

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    Quote Originally Posted by steve0
    Noah's ark is the boat built by the Biblical character Noah. At the command of God, according to the story, Noah was to build a boat that could accommodate his extended family, about 50,000 species of animals, and about one million species of insects, how is that possible??
    where did you get 50,000 species of animals and 1000000 species of insects? actually if i remember correctly, it is estimated that there are 17000 species of animals, meaning there would be like 45000 a decent approximation of the number noah might have on the ark, but again, an approximation...noone knows.

    Quote Originally Posted by steve0
    The craft had to be constructed to endure a divinely planned universal flood aimed at destroying every other person and animal on earth (except, I suppose, those animals whose habitat is liquid). This was no problem, according to calculations from Genesis 6:15 that the ark was 450 feet long, 75 feet wide and 45 feet deep. This is equivalent to "522 standard stock cars or 8 freight trains of 65 cars each." By some divine calculation he figures that all the insect species and the worms could fit in 21 box cars. He could be right, though i do not think
    how many insect species and worms were there? and yes you are right, 522 stock cars, each of which can hold 240 sheep. it would take 188 cars to hold 45,000 sheep sized animals leaving 312 cars yet to use.

    Quote Originally Posted by steve0
    Those not familiar with the story might wonder why God would destroy nearly all the descendants of all of the creatures he had created. The story is that God was displeased with all of his human creations, except for Noah and his family. Annihilating those one is displeased with has become a familiar tactic of the followers of this and many other gods.

    Despite the bad example God set for Noah's descendants--imagine a human parent drowning his or her children because they were "not righteous"
    a human parent is not God.

    Quote Originally Posted by steve0
    --the story remains a favorite among children. God likes good people. He lets them ride on a boat with a bunch of friendly animals. He shows them a great rainbow after the storm. And they all live happily ever after. Even adults like the story, though they might see it as an allegory with some sort of spiritual message, such as God is all-powerful and we owe everything, even our very existence to the Creator. Furthermore, the Creator expects us to behave ourselves. But there are many who take the story literally.

    According to the story told in chapter 7 of Genesis, Noah, his crew, and the animals lived together for more than 6 months before the floodwaters receded. There are a few minor logistical problems with this arrangement, but before getting to them, there is one other thing that needs commenting on. It is obvious that floods are no laughing matter. The destruction of life and property caused by floods has plagued many animals, not just humans, from time immemorial. To watch one's family or home swept away in floodwaters must be a terrible spectacle. To see one's children drown, one's life and dreams washed away in an instant, must be a devastating experience. But if one were to discover that the flood was not a whimsical effect of chance natural events, not unplanned and purposeless, but rather the malicious and willful act of a conscious being, one might add rage to the feelings of devastation.
    or might add regret to the feelings of devastation...

    Quote Originally Posted by steve0
    I suppose one could argue that it is God's world; he created it, so he can destroy it if he feels like it. But such an attitude seems inappropriate for an All-Good, Loving God
    dont forget that god is All-Just. he is not JUST All-Loving. And it is never said He is "all-good". its because of all of God's attributes that He must do what He must do.

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    got majority of my information from the bible, also i beleive god did act as a parent toward Noah for protecting him and his family, also if god whiped out the entier planet how did human race survive are we all descendents from Noah ?????

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    from noah's family...

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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    from noah's family...
    \\


    so you are saying the entier human race came from Noahs family??? if so we did the Pherose come from and how did we get races like white, black, indian, oreintal???, i mean this raise's alot of questions

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    Quote Originally Posted by steve0
    \\


    so you are saying the entier human race came from Noahs family??? if so we did the Pherose come from and how did we get races like white, black, indian, oreintal???, i mean this raise's alot of questions

    there was a documentary on the discovery channel whcih covered this part , they linked all the different human races back to the african black man , different environments and climates changed pigments and charateristics in humans over the years , and thats how we got different looks n all ........... its in biology ADAPTATION OF SPECIES & EVOLUTION.

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    Even with today's technology, it would be impossible to put 2 of each animal and insect on a boat for 6 months, and have all of them survive. What about insects which have a life span of months, weeks, or even days, and that require specific environments and conditions to reproduce? What about animals and insects that eat other animals and insects for food (nearly all of them) and if not, what about the plant life required for the others? What about parasites? What about the ammount of water required for a flood that size?


    Maybe when people only lived on farms, and knew of like 40 animals in existence could I understand someone believing such a story as fact. But with our knowledge of todays extensive animal kingdom, as well as the known importance of habitat and diet alone, noah's arc is clearly impossible.

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    Don't forget this was all done by 8 untrained people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zOaib
    there was a documentary on the discovery channel whcih covered this part , they linked all the different human races back to the african black man , different environments and climates changed pigments and charateristics in humans over the years , and thats how we got different looks n all ........... its in biology ADAPTATION OF SPECIES & EVOLUTION.
    The bible explains that too, and then some. You see Noah's son saw him naked, so noah banished him to africa. Dark skin is associated with the curse of noah's son.


    Genesis 9:25-27: "Cursed be Canaan! The lowest of slaves will he be to his brothers. He also said, 'Blessed be the Lord, the God of Shem! May Canaan be the slave of Shem. May God extend the territory of Japheth; may Japeth live in the tents of Shem and may Canaan be his slave'. "


    This is how the christians justified slavery.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BeerBaron
    Even with today's technology, it would be impossible to put 2 of each animal and insect on a boat for 6 months, and have all of them survive. What about insects which have a life span of months, weeks, or even days, and that require specific environments and conditions to reproduce? What about animals and insects that eat other animals and insects for food (nearly all of them) and if not, what about the plant life required for the others? What about parasites? What about the ammount of water required for a flood that size?


    Maybe when people only lived on farms, and knew of like 40 animals in existence could I understand someone believing such a story as fact. But with our knowledge of todays extensive animal kingdom, as well as the known importance of habitat and diet alone, noah's arc is clearly impossible.


    my point exactlly i dont get it either it's like we grow and are forced to go to church with are families as children and maybe we are rainwashed maybe we are not wjo knows anymore im not saying i dont beleive in god or that there is not a god it's just some of the stories in the Bible raise many unanswered questions

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    Quote Originally Posted by BeerBaron
    Even with today's technology, it would be impossible to put 2 of each animal and insect on a boat for 6 months,
    It's tough enough for 6 months, but according to the Bible,
    all those animals were on the Ark for 14 months.
    And all the food to feed them for 14 months.
    And all the water to hydrate them for 14 months.

    Keep in mind that the Ark had less than 3 acres of floor space to keep hundreds of thousands of animals alive for over a year. Anyone who's ever seen a horse farm has seen what a couple of horses can do to just one acre of land. Anyone who's been to a zoo can tell you that hundreds of thousands of animals won't fit in just three acres.

    The Noah story is silly. And it's silly to have to tell adults that it's silly.

    What is this country coming to?

    Ugh . . .

    -Tock

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    Quote Originally Posted by BeerBaron
    Even with today's technology, it would be impossible to put 2 of each animal and insect on a boat for 6 months, and have all of them survive. What about insects which have a life span of months, weeks, or even days, and that require specific environments and conditions to reproduce? What about animals and insects that eat other animals and insects for food (nearly all of them) and if not, what about the plant life required for the others? What about parasites? What about the ammount of water required for a flood that size?


    Maybe when people only lived on farms, and knew of like 40 animals in existence could I understand someone believing such a story as fact. But with our knowledge of todays extensive animal kingdom, as well as the known importance of habitat and diet alone, noah's arc is clearly impossible.
    for those "insects with special needs", i dont know. for those that only live a for short periods of time, perhaps they werent around then, perhaps their life was extended by God, who knows. how do you know what animals were around in noahs day...we dont. i agree in any day, it would be impossible to get 2 of each animal and insect on a boat for 6 months, probably almost impossible for 1 day! I agree with you 100%, noah's ark is CLEARLY IMPOSSIBLE! ...without the help of God that is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BeerBaron
    Don't forget this was all done by 8 untrained people.
    impossible huh! 8 untrained people put a ship together that lasts for months and months on the open waters, with all those animals. i agree. must have taken a miracle!

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    Quote Originally Posted by BeerBaron
    The bible explains that too, and then some. You see Noah's son saw him naked, so noah banished him to africa. Dark skin is associated with the curse of noah's son.


    Genesis 9:25-27: "Cursed be Canaan! The lowest of slaves will he be to his brothers. He also said, 'Blessed be the Lord, the God of Shem! May Canaan be the slave of Shem. May God extend the territory of Japheth; may Japeth live in the tents of Shem and may Canaan be his slave'. "


    This is how the christians justified slavery.
    youve heard people try to justify slavery?? by slavery, i take it your definition is what we saw in the US, where they were treated like dogs..? Thats crazy. and just fyi, slavery back then is not the slavery that we know today.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tock
    It's tough enough for 6 months, but according to the Bible,
    all those animals were on the Ark for 14 months.
    And all the food to feed them for 14 months.
    And all the water to hydrate them for 14 months.

    Keep in mind that the Ark had less than 3 acres of floor space to keep hundreds of thousands of animals alive for over a year. Anyone who's ever seen a horse farm has seen what a couple of horses can do to just one acre of land. Anyone who's been to a zoo can tell you that hundreds of thousands of animals won't fit in just three acres.

    The Noah story is silly. And it's silly to have to tell adults that it's silly.

    What is this country coming to?

    Ugh . . .

    -Tock
    now theres 100's of thousands of animals?? the number keeps rising and rising! or did you just throw that number out there?

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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    where did you get 50,000 species of animals and 1000000 species of insects? actually if i remember correctly, it is estimated that there are 17000 species of animals, meaning there would be like 45000 a decent approximation of the number noah might have on the ark, but again, an approximation...noone knows.
    5500 species of mammals -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mammal
    800,000 + species of insects -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insect
    7925 species of reptiles -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reptile
    10,000 species of birds -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bird

    subtotal = 823,425 species found so far, not including fish.

    Fish ----> so, what happened to all the fresh water fish when the salty ocean water flooded their habitats? We all know that few fresh water fish can survive salt water; did Noah have an aquarium on the Ark, too?

    What animals were clean and which were unclean, and how many of what were on board is gonna be tough (and not worth the time) to figure out. Supposing that half of all animals qualify as being clean and half unclean, then we can assume that there were
    24750 mammals on board
    35662 reptiles on board
    45000 birds on board
    ---------
    83,137 animals on board, along with 3,600,000 insects.

    Since many of those animals are carnivorous, their food supply would have constituted even more of other animals -- extra mice to feed the reptiles, extra ants to feed the anteaters, extra bugs to feed the birds, etc.

    Plus, there's another curious issue that the pro-Ark crowd fail to explain, and that is how Noah managed to get the special diets that certain animals, like the Giant Panda (from China) require?


    Nah, to take any of that tale literally is just nonsense.

    -Tock

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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    youve heard people try to justify slavery?? by slavery, i take it your definition is what we saw in the US, where they were treated like dogs..? Thats crazy. and just fyi, slavery back then is not the slavery that we know today.
    Here ya go . . .

    http://www.religioustolerance.org/sla_bibl.htm

    Quotations by learned men from the 19th century:
    "[Slavery] was established by decree of Almighty God...it is sanctioned in the Bible, in both Testaments, from Genesis to Revelation...it has existed in all ages, has been found among the people of the highest civilization, and in nations of the highest proficiency in the arts." Jefferson Davis, President of the Confederate States of America. 1,2
    "There is not one verse in the Bible inhibiting slavery, but many regulating it. It is not then, we conclude, immoral." Rev. Alexander Campbell
    "The right of holding slaves is clearly established in the Holy Scriptures, both by precept and example." Rev. R. Furman, D.D., Baptist, of South Carolina
    "The hope of civilization itself hangs on the defeat of Negro suffrage." A statement by a prominent 19th-century southern Presbyterian pastor, cited by Rev. Jack Rogers, moderator of the Presbyterian Church (USA).
    "The doom of Ham has been branded on the form and features of his African descendants. The hand of fate has united his color and destiny. Man cannot separate what God hath joined." United States Senator James Henry Hammond. 3



    Overview:
    The quotation by Jefferson Davis, listed above, reflected the beliefs of many Americans in the 19th century. Slavery was seen as having been "sanctioned in the Bible." They argued that:

    Biblical passages recognized, controlled, and regulated the practice.
    The Bible permitted owners to beat their slaves severely, even to the point of killing them. However, as long as the slave lingered longer than 24 hours before dying of the abuse, the owner was not regarded as having committed a crime, because -- after all -- the slave was his property. 4
    Paul had every opportunity to write in one of his Epistles that human slavery -- the owning of one person as a piece of property by another -- is profoundly evil. His letter to Philemon would have been an ideal opportunity to vilify slavery. But he wrote not one word of criticism.
    Jesus could have condemned the practice. He might have done so. But there is no record of him having said anything negative about the institution.

    Eventually, the abolitionists gained sufficient power to eradicate slavery in most areas of the world by the end of the 19th century. Slavery was eventually recognized as an extreme evil. But this paradigm shift in understanding came at a cost. Christians wondered why the Bible was so supportive of such an immoral practice. They questioned whether the Bible was entirely reliable. Perhaps there were other practices that it accepted as normal which were profoundly evil -- like genocide, torturing prisoners, raping female prisoners of war, executing religious minorities, burning some hookers alive, etc. The innocent faith that Christians had in "the Good Book" was lost -- never to be fully regained.

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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    for those "insects with special needs", i dont know. for those that only live a for short periods of time, perhaps they werent around then, perhaps their life was extended by God, who knows. how do you know what animals were around in noahs day...we dont. i agree in any day, it would be impossible to get 2 of each animal and insect on a boat for 6 months, probably almost impossible for 1 day! I agree with you 100%, noah's ark is CLEARLY IMPOSSIBLE! ...without the help of God that is.
    . . . and Clark Kent with his Superman powers is CLEARLY IMPOSSIBLE too . . . without the help of God, that is -- or without the help of gullible beleivers, that is . . .

    -Tock

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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    impossible huh! 8 untrained people put a ship together that lasts for months and months on the open waters, with all those animals. i agree. must have taken a miracle!
    . . . or a writer of fiction . . .

    -Tock

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    im confused, first you said 55000 species of animals, now you are saying 5500 species of mammals...i cant get to wikepedia to check for mistype...so you'll have to let me know. but anyway, your number count is an ongoing species count of all animals up to this point..which will surely rise. The key question is how many species were there in Noahs time??

    how did noah manage to get the giant panda to the ship!! no clue.

    here it is, we dont know exactly how many animals there were. we dont know how many insects there were. we cant just assume all of the animals we have today were alive then too. with the size of the ship, it has limits, but you can fit a LOT of animals in that space. and quite possibly, there were only a LOT of animals at the time of Noah. you cant intelligently attack the size of the boat without knowing how many animals were actually on it. you attack "hows" of special needs, carnivores, etc etc. imo, thats pointless to attack too because if all these animals really showed up to a boat in pairs, board, and go to their cells,that because of that miracle alone, it would be no miracle to me that the 'special needs' would have been taken care of and the carnivores would have some how gotten along fine, and etc etc.

    it takes faith in God and the bible to even believe that all of these animals showed up.

    question, if this was not to be taken literal, then what is the point of it being there? What symbolic point do you get from Noah and the flood?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tock
    Here ya go . . .

    http://www.religioustolerance.org/sla_bibl.htm

    Quotations by learned men from the 19th century:
    "[Slavery] was established by decree of Almighty God...it is sanctioned in the Bible, in both Testaments, from Genesis to Revelation...it has existed in all ages, has been found among the people of the highest civilization, and in nations of the highest proficiency in the arts." Jefferson Davis, President of the Confederate States of America. 1,2
    "There is not one verse in the Bible inhibiting slavery, but many regulating it. It is not then, we conclude, immoral." Rev. Alexander Campbell
    "The right of holding slaves is clearly established in the Holy Scriptures, both by precept and example." Rev. R. Furman, D.D., Baptist, of South Carolina
    "The hope of civilization itself hangs on the defeat of Negro suffrage." A statement by a prominent 19th-century southern Presbyterian pastor, cited by Rev. Jack Rogers, moderator of the Presbyterian Church (USA).
    "The doom of Ham has been branded on the form and features of his African descendants. The hand of fate has united his color and destiny. Man cannot separate what God hath joined." United States Senator James Henry Hammond. 3



    Overview:
    The quotation by Jefferson Davis, listed above, reflected the beliefs of many Americans in the 19th century. Slavery was seen as having been "sanctioned in the Bible." They argued that:

    Biblical passages recognized, controlled, and regulated the practice.
    The Bible permitted owners to beat their slaves severely, even to the point of killing them. However, as long as the slave lingered longer than 24 hours before dying of the abuse, the owner was not regarded as having committed a crime, because -- after all -- the slave was his property. 4
    Paul had every opportunity to write in one of his Epistles that human slavery -- the owning of one person as a piece of property by another -- is profoundly evil. His letter to Philemon would have been an ideal opportunity to vilify slavery. But he wrote not one word of criticism.
    Jesus could have condemned the practice. He might have done so. But there is no record of him having said anything negative about the institution.

    Eventually, the abolitionists gained sufficient power to eradicate slavery in most areas of the world by the end of the 19th century. Slavery was eventually recognized as an extreme evil. But this paradigm shift in understanding came at a cost. Christians wondered why the Bible was so supportive of such an immoral practice. They questioned whether the Bible was entirely reliable. Perhaps there were other practices that it accepted as normal which were profoundly evil -- like genocide, torturing prisoners, raping female prisoners of war, executing religious minorities, burning some hookers alive, etc. The innocent faith that Christians had in "the Good Book" was lost -- never to be fully regained.
    The people you quoted above are trying to use the bible to promote their personal idea of slavery, which was basing it on nothing but skin color. and thats not slavery in biblical times.

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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    The key question is how many species were there in Noahs time??
    If you take the Bible literally, then the flood happened about 6000 years ago, and species do not evolve from one to another. So, there were as many species back then as there are today, minus a few extinctions here and there.




    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    how did noah manage to get the giant panda to the ship!! no clue.
    I'll tell ya . . . FICTION. It didn't happen at all.








    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    here it is, we dont know exactly how many animals there were. we dont know how many insects there were. we cant just assume all of the animals we have today were alive then too.
    Evolution says there are probably more, Creation Science says there aren't.
    Take your pick.









    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    with the size of the ship, it has limits, but you can fit a LOT of animals in that space.
    Sure, if you puree and freeze-dry them.

    But all these animals needed to be fed and watered, and of course, to be exercised periodically. And someone had to clean out the stalls every once in a while. With a staff of 8 people on the boat and hundreds of thousands of critters onboard, you betcha all of 'em were busy busy busy.
    And the Bible experts at the ICR (Institute for Creation Research) and others claim that there were dinosaurs on Noah's Ark, too. So, someone had to keep the T. Rexes from killing all the sheep and pigs whenever they got hungry. I'll betcha that happened more than once a day . . . what do you think?






    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    you cant intelligently attack the size of the boat without knowing how many animals were actually on it.
    I just did it.

    The Ark had less than 3 acres of floor space. Let's see you put 10,000 animals in that area with all their food and water and sewer facilities for 14 months, and see how long they live. Then try it with all the animals and dinosaurs that were on the Ark, and their food and water, and then add in over 3 million bugs.
    Ya, that would be fun to watch.




    [QUOTE=max2extreme]
    you attack "hows" of special needs, carnivores, etc etc. imo, thats pointless to attack too because if all these animals really showed up to a boat in pairs, board, and go to their cells,that because of that miracle alone, it would be no miracle to me that the 'special needs' would have been taken care of and the carnivores would have some how gotten along fine, and etc etc.]/QUOTE]
    Ya, but that's not what the Bible says is what happened, is it? There's no mention of a special miracle. Only a command from Jehovah to "Load 'em up, and move 'em out."
    If a business relied on "magic" to convince gullible folks to beleive that improbable things can happen the way religion does, you'd see a lot more businessmen in jail. IMHO, a lot more preachers ought to be in jail for taking $$$ for selling stuff they can't demonstrate is true.







    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    it takes faith in God and the bible to even believe that all of these animals showed up.
    Not faith . . . gullibility.









    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    question, if this was not to be taken literal, then what is the point of it being there?
    It's merely a story, a legend. A work of fiction, no more, no less.








    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    What symbolic point do you get from Noah and the flood?
    http://joewray.com/quotes.htm
    "Life consists not in holding good cards but in playing those you hold well. "

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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    The people you quoted above are trying to use the bible to promote their personal idea of slavery, which was basing it on nothing but skin color. and thats not slavery in biblical times.
    So . . . are you saying that slavery as practiced in biblical times was an acceptable practice?
    Are you saying that millions of racists did not use the Bible, quoting from it quite liberally, to support the notion that slavery was an acceptable practice?

    -Tock

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tock
    If you take the Bible literally, then the flood happened about 6000 years ago, and species do not evolve from one to another. So, there were as many species back then as there are today, minus a few extinctions here and there.
    so its all literal or none literal with you?


    Quote Originally Posted by TOCK
    But all these animals needed to be fed and watered, and of course, to be exercised periodically. And someone had to clean out the stalls every once in a while. With a staff of 8 people on the boat and hundreds of thousands of critters onboard, you betcha all of 'em were busy busy busy.
    And the Bible experts at the ICR (Institute for Creation Research) and others claim that there were dinosaurs on Noah's Ark, too. So, someone had to keep the T. Rexes from killing all the sheep and pigs whenever they got hungry. I'll betcha that happened more than once a day . . . what do you think?
    i dont think there were any "t rexes" on board...





    Quote Originally Posted by TOCK
    I just did it.
    keyword wasnt "attack"...

    Quote Originally Posted by TOCK
    The Ark had less than 3 acres of floor space. Let's see you put 10,000 animals in that area with all their food and water and sewer facilities for 14 months, and see how long they live. Then try it with all the animals and dinosaurs that were on the Ark, and their food and water, and then add in over 3 million bugs.
    Ya, that would be fun to watch.
    definatly a sight to see!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tock
    So . . . are you saying that slavery as practiced in biblical times was an acceptable practice?
    Are you saying that millions of racists did not use the Bible, quoting from it quite liberally, to support the notion that slavery was an acceptable practice?

    -Tock
    Im saying that many people SOLD THEMSELVES into slavery so not to go into bankrupcy, to repay a debt, or forced as punishment for a crime (much like you see 'offenders' on the side of the highway picking up trash). And this type of slavery I see nothing wrong with. It had nothing to do with skin color like it is defined in present day. If someone owes me money, no matter same color or not, and they say "i cant pay you back, but how bout i work for you to pay it off." um, ok. fine with me. "im going into bankrupcy, ill work for you, in return you supply me food and shelter and pay my debts instead of paying me".. ok sure. whats wrong with that? Im sure a lot of people did use the bible to support that slavery was acceptable. But the reasoning behind the slavery is much different and thats what makes it bad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    impossible huh! 8 untrained people put a ship together that lasts for months and months on the open waters, with all those animals. i agree. must have taken a miracle!
    So if god killed everyone else on earth, leaving 8 people who were given abilities and were protected by the magic bubble of a miracle, what is the point of free will? I thought we have free will so we can truly make the decision to love god... Then god turns around and pulls that crap. God just took total control of a situation here on earth because he didn't like where free will took humans.

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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    how do you know what animals were around in noahs day...we dont.
    Well, if creationism is true, shouldn't they all have been around?

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    well Noah and his family were decendts from Adam and Eve so i guess we all come from adam and eve, or what about evolution???? and if the Ark is true and there were all those animals that is a tone of piss and shit to clean up

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    one cna only draw the conclusion that if it did happen it was a act of god since there is now possible way it could be done without his aid. Since I dont belive in the bible I would have to say the noah story is just a tale.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johan
    one cna only draw the conclusion that if it did happen it was a act of god since there is now possible way it could be done without his aid. Since I dont belive in the bible I would have to say the noah story is just a tale.

    Act of god puts it lightly, 8 people couldn't even shovel all the animal shit off the arc fast enough. If god gave them all this knowledge, physicly protect the lives of all the animals, people, ect. ect... why would an arc be necessary? Why would food be necessary? God clearly has physical presence and is going to have his way in the end no matter what, right? The circumstances in the story give the illusion that god just instructed, and free will did the rest; this simply can not be.

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    http://www.perishednations.com/nuhsflood1.html

    Please click next at the bottom to read more.
    Last edited by CAUSASIAN; 11-09-2005 at 02:12 PM.

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    Was the Flood a Local Disaster or was It Global?

    Those who deny the reality of Nuh's Flood, support their stance with the assertion that a worldwide flood is impossible. However, their denial of any flood whatsoever is also directed as an attack on the Qur'an. According to them, all the revealed books including the Qur'an, appear to defend the reality of a worldwide flood and are thus mistaken.

    Yet this denial of the Qur'an is not true. The Qur'an was revealed by Allah and is the sole unaltered divine book. The Qur'an looks at the Flood from a very different viewpoint than do the Pentateuch and the other flood legends narrated in various cultures. The Pentateuch, a name for the first five books of the Old Testament, says that the flood was cosmic and that it covered the whole world. Yet the Qur'an does not offer such as assertion, indeed on the contrary, the relevant verses imply that the Flood was regional and did not cover the whole world but only drowned Nuh's people who had been warned by Nuh and so were punished.

    When the Flood narrations of the Old Testament and the Qur'an are examined, this difference is plain. The Old Testament, which has been subject to so many alterations and additions throughout its history that it can truly be said that almost nothing of the original remains, describes how the Flood began as follows;

    And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD (Genesis, 6:5-8)

    However, in the Qur'an, it is clearly shown that it was not the whole world, but only Nuh's people who were destroyed. Just as Hud was sent only to 'Ad (Surah Hud: 50), Salih was sent to Thamud (Surah Hud: 61) and all the other prophet prior to Muhammad were sent only to their own peoples, Nuh was sent only to his people and the flood caused only Nuh's people to disappear;

    We sent Nuh to his people (with a mission): "I have come to you with a Clear Warning: That ye serve none but Allah: Verily I do fear for you the penalty of a grievous day." (Surah Hud: 25-26)

    Those who perished were people who totally disregarded Prophet Nuh's proclamation of the message and persisted on rebellion. Relevant verses are explicit enough to leave no room for discussion:

    But they rejected him, and We delivered him, and those with him, in the Ark: but We overwhelmed in the flood those who rejected Our signs. They were indeed a blind people! (Surat al-Araf: 64)

    We saved him and those who adhered to him. By Our mercy, and We cut off the roots of those who rejected Our signs and did not believe. (Surat al-Araf: 72)

    Besides, in the Qur'an, Allah remarks that He does not destroy a community unless a messenger has been sent to it. Destruction can only take place if a warner has already arrived among a particular people and the warner is belied. Allah states in Surat al-Qasas;

    Nor was thy Lord the one to destroy a population until He had sent to its centre a messenger, rehearsing to them Our Signs; nor are We going to destroy a population except when its members practice iniquity. (Surat al-Qasas: 59)

    It is not Allah's Way to destroy people whom He has not sent any messengers. As a warner, Nuh had been sent only to his people. Therefore, Allah did not destroy the communities who had not been sent a warner, but only Nuh's people.

    From these statements in the Qur'an, we can be certain that Nuh's flood was a regional disaster, not a cosmic one. The excavations made in the archaeological region where the flood is supposed to have happened - which we will examine here below - show that the flood was not a cosmic event affecting the whole world, but a very broad catastrophe which affected a certain part of Mesopotamia.


    Were all the Animals Taken on Board?

    The interpreters of the Bible believe that Nuh took all animal species on earth on board the Ark and that animals were saved from extinction thanks to Nuh. According to this belief, a pair of every animals species on earth were brought together and put on board.

    Those who defend this assertion doubtless have to face serious difficulties in many respects. The question of how the animal species taken aboard were fed, how they were housed on the Ark, or how they were isolated from each other are impossible to answer. Moreover, the question remains: how were animals from different continents brought together - mammals in the poles, kangaroos in Australia or the bison peculiar to America? Moreover, there follow more questions as to how very dangerous animals - venomous ones like snakes, scorpions and wild animals - were caught and how they could be sustained away from their natural habitats until the flood abated.

    These are the questions which the Old Testament faces. In the Qur'an, there is no statement implying that all the animal species on earth were taken on board. As we have noted before, the Flood took place in a certain region. Therefore, the animals taken on board could only have been those living in the region where Nuh's people resided.

    However, it is evident that it is impossible even to collect all the animal species living in that region. It is difficult to think of Nuh and a few number of believers beside him (Surah Hud: 40) going in all directions and setting out to collect two each of hundreds of animal species in their surroundings. It is even more highly improbable for them to have collected specimens of the insect species living in their region, and, moreover, to discriminate the males from the female! This is the reason why it is more probable that the animals collected were those that could easily be caught and sustained, and were, therefore, domestic animals especially useful to man. The prophet Nuh was most likely to have taken on board such animals as cows, sheep, horses, poultry camels and the like, because these were the primary animals that would have been needed for establishing a new life in a region which would have lost a great deal of its livestock because of the Flood.

    Here the important point is that the divine wisdom in Allah's command to Nuh to collect the animals lies in its being directed to the collecting of the animals required for the new life to be established after the flood rather than to protecting the genus of animals. Since the flood was regional, the extinction of animal species could not have been a possibility. It is most likely that after the flood, animals from other regions would have migrated to that area in the course of time, and re-populated the region with its old liveliness. What was important was the life to be established in the region right after the flood, and the animals gathered would have been collected basically for this purpose.

  33. #33
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    There is no problem with the flood account from a logical perspective. Those who attack the account presupose certain conditions that are not necessarily true.

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    Caus. its almost as if you pick and choose that which makes Islam sound more convincing.


    Amjad Ali Khan- what do you think of this guy Caus. or Zoaib
    Last edited by books555; 11-09-2005 at 05:53 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by books555
    Caus. its almost as if you pick and choose that which makes Islam sound more convincing.
    There is no picking and choosing, that is what Islam says.

    And I highly respect the teachings of Harun Yahya.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CAUSASIAN
    http://www.perishednations.com/nuhsflood1.html

    Please click next at the bottom to read more.
    If you read the quotes from the Quran, it only refers to "his people" "Noah's people" not the whole entire world.

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    people - this boat never even existed

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    Quote Originally Posted by BeerBaron
    So if god killed everyone else on earth, leaving 8 people who were given abilities and were protected by the magic bubble of a miracle, what is the point of free will? I thought we have free will so we can truly make the decision to love god... Then god turns around and pulls that crap. God just took total control of a situation here on earth because he didn't like where free will took humans.
    the point of free will is to choose right from wrong, good vs evil, love vs hate. I believe everyone fits into a plan, and all of our deaths are 'our time to die' anyway, so those people fitting into His plan who died in the flood would be imo same as when my time is up. They are still getting judged.

    oh ive been studying the past few weeks about your sentence "I thought we have free will so we can truly make the decision to love god" and biblically, thats not the case. Look at my thread "Who did Jesus die for".

    and also seems sometime, me and books are going to debate this because he feels differently.

    (i have real life stuff i need to go to, i can give more indepth thoughts if you likfe but this is the basics if what i think)

  39. #39
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    Can you give any evidence which supports your conclusion Muckdog
    Last edited by books555; 11-09-2005 at 05:57 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BeerBaron
    Well, if creationism is true, shouldn't they all have been around?
    not imo. I believe in microevolution (you kinda have to, its proven) but not macroevolution. I dont believe all animals that we know of today were around during adam and eve. I believe that the basic species was but thruout time, evolution brought about different variations of that species. and theres nothing unbiblical about that, fyi.

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