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  1. #1
    AIZ's Avatar
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    Holocaust Denial + Jail?

    As a Jew, I find anyone who denies the holocaust a menace to history. I think its crime against morals and ethics. My family lost many to the camps. However, I also believe in the freedom of speech as long as its not incitement. IMO, Irving is a piece of but I think that he still has the right to speak his mind.

    British historian David Irving arrested in Austria on Holocaust denial charges

    By The Associated Press

    VIENNA, Austria - Controversial British historian David Irving has been arrested on a warrant accusing him of denying the Holocaust, the Austrian Interior Ministry said Thursday.

    Irving was arrested on Nov. 11 in the southern province of Styria, said police Maj. Rudolf Golia, a spokesman for the Austrian Interior Ministry. He was transferred to a prison in Graz.

    Irving was detained on a warrant issued in 1989 under Austrian laws that make Holocaust denial a crime, Golia said. The charges stemmed from speeches Irving delivered that year in Vienna and in the southern town of Leoben.

    Irving in the past has faced allegations of spreading anti-Semitic and racist ideas. He is the author of nearly 30 books, including "Hitler's War," which challenges the extent of the Holocaust.

    He remained in custody Thursday, the Austria Press Agency said. Calls to the Graz court to confirm the report went unanswered late Thursday afternoon.

    If formally charged, tried and convicted on the charge, Irving could face up to 20 years in prison, said Otto Schneider of the public prosecutor's office. But he said it was unclear whether there were sufficient legal grounds to continue holding Irving on such a charge so many years after the alleged offense was committed. A decision was expected by the end of next week on how to proceed, Schneider said.

  2. #2
    wrx's Avatar
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    wow! thats real good.. i never heard of that!

  3. #3
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    Personally it troubles me that there is a law on the books that calls for a person to be arrested because of his beliefs.

    Regardless of how warped or twisted they are.

  4. #4
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    yep, and in germany you cannot do the "nazi sign" in public or you get arrested!

    I think it is time the german accept their history, and denying the "Holocaust" is stupid.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3Vandoo
    yep, and in germany you cannot do the "nazi sign" in public or you get arrested!

    I think it is time the german accept their history, and denying the "Holocaust" is stupid.

    From my personal experience the only ones who have learned and taken responsibility for the holocaust are the germans. The rest of the Europeans are busy claiming innocence, blaming the Germans, and have learned absolutely nothing.

  6. #6
    transform is offline Associate Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rak_Ani
    From my personal experience the only ones who have learned and taken responsibility for the holocaust are the germans. The rest of the Europeans are busy claiming innocence, blaming the Germans, and have learned absolutely nothing.
    I presume that includes me?

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    transform is offline Associate Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rak_Ani
    From my personal experience the only ones who have learned and taken responsibility for the holocaust are the germans. The rest of the Europeans are busy claiming innocence, blaming the Germans, and have learned absolutely nothing.
    I presume you include me in that?

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by transform
    I presume that includes me?

    I haven't been to Ireland and this isn't talking about a specific person. It's about general attitudes.
    For example: when a high school teacher incites against Israel in a history class and nothing is done about that by the school although they know it, or when classroom doors have "death to Israel" written on them and no one bothers painting over it.
    Get the idea?

  9. #9
    BOUNCER is offline Retired Vet
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    You know, of all the holocaust threads I've read both here and on other boards I've NEVER once seen a Jew ackknowledge the other five million people murdered in the death camps by the Nazi's, are Jew's in denial over the gypsies, the gays, the politcally opposed, the handicapped etc?.

    As for 'Europeans', well I don't consider myself 'European'. I'm a very proud Irishman, we're an island nation, the only one in 'Europe'!. But getting back to the holocaust for a moment, its a fact that Ireland offered a safe haven to as many Jews as wanted to come here after WWII. Israel's 6th president was Irish and is celebrated here. But tainting all that was our prime minister 'Eamon de Valera' sending his condolences to the German people on the death of Adolf Hitler!.

  10. #10
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    <quote>
    Irving was detained on a warrant issued in 1989 under Austrian laws that make Holocaust denial a crime, Golia said. The charges stemmed from speeches Irving delivered that year in Vienna and in the southern town of Leoben.
    </quote>

    That is crazy to arrest someone for thinking a certain way. My Parents on back were Jewish and my great grandmother came over form the old country so my opinion on the Nazi's is I hope they are all burning in hell.. of course even if I was not of a Jewish decent I would feel the same way..

    anyway do I think there should be a law to saying how I can think and speak? NO!! You and I have a right to think how we want as long as it does not directly effect others in a harmful way (and I don't mean hurt our feelings either).. this deal with the swastika being illegal is stupid too even though I find it offensive I think if some jackass wants to wear one it is up to him.. I think someone should kick the crap out of them everyday but still it should be okay to wear.. What is the difference between that and rednecks wearing a rebel flag or someone wearing a patch that says kill all gays or whatever..


    People get their feeling hurt way to easy.. stuff happens and history is just that History.. Praise those that did good, mourn thought that have fallen and learn by the mistakes of the past and grow to love each other more. what we need is Less Hate and More Sex... ummm I mean Love.

    Oldman

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOUNCER
    You know, of all the holocaust threads I've read both here and on other boards I've NEVER once seen a Jew ackknowledge the other five million people murdered in the death camps by the Nazi's, are Jew's in denial over the gypsies, the gays, the politcally opposed, the handicapped etc?.
    What are you suggesting Bouncer?

  12. #12
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    IMO the holocaust was just a detail in the WWII well if you buy a book of 1000 pages on WWII you find maybe 10 or 20 pages on the holocaust, plus more russians died that jews in the WWII, Hitler made order that every russian should be killed during the nazi invasion even children and elderies , so yes there was discrimination against the jews durring the Nazi but its not fair to make it sound like the biggest deal in WWII, plus the international zionism used the holocaust to gain comapassion to build a national country for the jews.

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    transform is offline Associate Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by MilitiaGuy
    IMO the holocaust was just a detail in the WWII well if you buy a book of 1000 pages on WWII you find maybe 10 or 20 pages on the holocaust, plus more russians died that jews in the WWII, Hitler made order that every russian should be killed during the nazi invasion even children and elderies , so yes there was discrimination against the jews durring the Nazi but its not fair to make it sound like the biggest deal in WWII, plus the international zionism used the holocaust to gain comapassion to build a national country for the jews.
    but the vast majority of the jews were unarmed civilians with no army or anything to defend themselves

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by MilitiaGuy
    IMO the holocaust was just a detail in the WWII well if you buy a book of 1000 pages on WWII you find maybe 10 or 20 pages on the holocaust, plus more russians died that jews in the WWII, Hitler made order that every russian should be killed during the nazi invasion even children and elderies , so yes there was discrimination against the jews durring the Nazi but its not fair to make it sound like the biggest deal in WWII, plus the international zionism used the holocaust to gain comapassion to build a national country for the jews.
    Thank G-d you put "IMO" at the beginning of this post. Yes 3 times as many Russians were killed during WWII but you are missing the point. Being Russian is a nationality, not an ethnicity. Hitler was attempting to exterminate an entire people. Discrimination would be treating Jews differently simply b/c they are Jewish. The Nazis and collaboraters systematically murdered 6 million Jews. That's discrimination on steroids my friend. The State of Israel was being established from the 1880s onward...long before WWI occurred. The Ottoman Empire, who was ruling modern day Israel, sold us much land...thank you for that

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOUNCER
    You know, of all the holocaust threads I've read both here and on other boards I've NEVER once seen a Jew ackknowledge the other five million people murdered in the death camps by the Nazi's, are Jew's in denial over the gypsies, the gays, the politcally opposed, the handicapped etc?.
    I always talk about the gypsies, the homosexuals, the physically and mentally handicapped, those that opposed the Nazi regime, as well as those that helped the Jews ("Righteous Gentiles"). Actually, on Holocaust Day, we always commerate and are taught to commemorate ALL those that were killed. As Jews, of course we mourn the loss of our own but we do pay tribute to the others. Sorry I didn't mention that in this post.

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    BOUNCER is offline Retired Vet
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    M'guy. I used to sit in cafes, in traffic, in bar's etc in Israel and look at these people around me and ask myself "WHY?". What made a mad, crazy bastard want to totally irradicate an entire people from the planet?.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AIZ
    The Ottoman Empire, who was ruling modern day Israel, sold us much land...thank you for that
    Yup in its last days the ottoman empire turned into a racist turkish nationalism they even wanted to turn the koran into a turkish koran insteade of arabic, they come in the 2nd degree in killing arabs after "israel" , they didnt sold land , they made secret agreements with the zionist, the zionist help them with there propaganda in europe by making the people believe that the turks didnt do the armenian genocide and in return the zionist will take some lands in palestine so basicly those lands were taken in an illegal way.

  18. #18
    BOUNCER is offline Retired Vet
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    Quote Originally Posted by AIZ
    I always talk about the gypsies, the homosexuals, the physically and mentally handicapped, those that opposed the Nazi regime, as well as those that helped the Jews ("Righteous Gentiles"). Actually, on Holocaust Day, we always commerate and are taught to commemorate ALL those that were killed. As Jews, of course we mourn the loss of our own but we do pay tribute to the others. Sorry I didn't mention that in this post.

    Thanks, and I've also been in Israel on holocaust day. Btw, I wasn't suggesting Israeli's were getting their knickers in a twist over the holocaust. We have the same type of people here in Ireland who deny British oppression over the Irish, and who deny our potato famine of 1846-1848 when the British starved over 8 million Irish people to death.

    Btw, I'm in agreement with Bigen that I don't believe someone should be jailed for their beliefs. David Irving is a nutcase anyway.

  19. #19
    AIZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MilitiaGuy
    Yup in its last days the ottoman empire turned into a racist turkish nationalism they even wanted to turn the koran into a turkish koran insteade of arabic, they come in the 2nd degree in killing arabs after "israel" , they didnt sold land , they made secret agreements with the zionist, the zionist help them with there propaganda in europe by making the people believe that the turks didnt do the armenian genocide and in return the zionist will take some lands in palestine so basicly those lands were taken in an illegal way.
    Actually, Arabs kill more Arabs than Israel does. Secondly, the Ottoman Empire began to sell land, as well as Syrian Arabs with land in the area, to the Jews long before the fall of the Ottoman Empire. The rest of your post reads like an OP-ED from al-Jazeera...a lot of soundbytes and as usual, baseless. You just can't admit that Arabs actually sold Jews a lot of land...not because of some conspriacy but simply for the money.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOUNCER
    M'guy. I used to sit in cafes, in traffic, in bar's etc in Israel and look at these people around me and ask myself "WHY?". What made a mad, crazy bastard want to totally irradicate an entire people from the planet?.
    because he flunked out of art school, turned down by a jew. Also he grew up as a vagabond in the streets of vienna, horrible poverty and everywhere he saw wealthy jewish people. Then he went to war and was outraged at the treaty imposed on the germans. He blamed the politicians in berlin for this refusing to believe the germans were defeated in the field which the generals concede was irrevocably so. This bread too much hate in one man who saw an outlet in originally the bolshevists. Then the jews. But he had it in his mind to rid the world of everybody that wasn't 100% aryan. And if he couldn't kill them he'd force them into slave labor.

    Combine all that with a depression in germany worse than the united states ever saw, he blatantly disregarded the treaty which made him popular, gave millions jobs in the war factories which made him popular, built the mightiest army this world has ever seen which made him popular. The megalomania took over from there and you get what we got.

    His first enemies were not jews but political opponents. The brownshirts executed any political party aside from the national socialists who dared have meetings, then he turned on the bolshevists (granted a political party in germany but he hated them as much as the jews, hence the medical experiments on russians and horrible torture etc.) then he turned on the jews.
    Last edited by symatech; 11-17-2005 at 11:55 PM.

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