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  1. #1
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    We have no free will

    We DONT. anyone who thinks we do is misguided.....how can we have free will??? each person has their own way of thinking , brain chemistry , hormones , enviormental factors which affect them and they are just like that...they cant change what they want or the way they think....how can some1 possibly how free will? I dont get it......

  2. #2
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    We don't you mean you and I are not allowed to make our own decisions in life? Yes our brains are programmed one way but we are not preprogrammed robots..

    By saying we do not have free will you are saying we are just puppets and our master just pulls the strings and makes us dance. Why would you say this? on what basis do you draw this life-altering news?

    You have control and free will to go rob a bank right? You do not wake up and say "I... caN NoT... HeLp mySELF... I MuST Rob A BanK ToDaY" come on.

    Yes in some people they have something mentally wrong with them and they have uncontrollable rage, sexual tendencies or whatever and that Could be a mental issue but for "normal" people we can control what our actions are and how we think.

    I could choose to say You are stupid for saying what you did OR I could say I do not agree and ask to hear more... Free Will to choose what we do, think and how we act.


    Oldman

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    We don't you mean you and I are not allowed to make our own decisions in life? Yes our brains are programmed one way but we are not preprogrammed robots..
    yeah bro we are...the desicions we make are set, we cannot choose other descions, even we think about them...we will choose 1 desicion which are made to choose, wether we like it or not and wether we know it or not....


    By saying we do not have free will you are saying we are just puppets and our master just pulls the strings and makes us dance. Why would you say this? on what basis do you draw this life-altering news?
    not puppets but robots....im not 100% sure wether there is a god or not, and if god existed would he be the same image of god as portrayed in the 3 main religious books(koran , torah and bible)..back on topic...

    You have control and free will to go rob a bank right? You do not wake up and say "I... caN NoT... HeLp mySELF... I MuST Rob A BanK ToDaY" come on.
    see its not like that....its that when a person decides to rob a bank..he didnt decide to rob a bank,...he was already wating to rob a bank...it was just waiting to happen this persons desires , ways of thinkin , enviorment/s , sense of rite are wrong , etc... are wut caused him to rob a bank...he couldnt have chosen not to rob a bank cause he already has u know...and if he did decide not to rob it....then he couldnt have chosen to rob it...cuz he didnt....


    Yes in some people they have something mentally wrong with them and they have uncontrollable rage, sexual tendencies or whatever and that Could be a mental issue but for "normal" people we can control what our actions are and how we think.
    were are just like them , but we dont have a name for us.....no1 likes to think they have no control or power oversomething....we cannot control how we act OR think

    I could choose to say You are stupid for saying what you did OR I could say I do not agree and ask to hear more... Free Will to choose what we do, think and how we act.

    oldman
    see if u did say that...I wouldve beaten ur internet ass lol JK, seriously...if u did say that, u wouldnt have chosen to say it...even if u think about it and think that u choose it, u are programmed like that....that when u hear some1 who says something that u think is stupid to say that h/she or the thing they are saying is stupid and if u didnt say that....u didnt choose not say it, u didnt cause u never would have...

  4. #4
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    What I think you are talking about is predestination I guess. You are saying the road map of our life is predestined what we will do long before we are born.

    Now I do believe in God and I do believe that God says our life as one big picture from start to finish and yes He knows before you are born what path you will choose but I do not believe that he picks me and says "this one will rob banks, get his cyber ass kicked and go to hell" and "that one will be a good boy and preach and come to heaven"

    what God knows is way too much for humans to understand and to be honest I do not want to know what He knows, I think my head would explode.

    Other than a mental issue you can choose your own path but YES the map of your life has already been seen by God but that does not mean you did not choose it.. Gosh how to say this more clear.. God does not set you up to fail or win he allows you to do this yourself but He does now the outcome before you even get started.

    Now the question is this IF God knows you are going to screwup and kill or whatever and end up in hell why does he not put up a road block to change you?? Free Will because God has already seen what is to happen so he will allow you to take the wide road to Hell or the narrow path to Him.

    This is my opinion.. I won't know until I die.

    Oldman

  5. #5
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    You are free to decide most things in life. Certain things you cannot. You don't decide when you will naturally die. You don't decide whether you can breathe oxygen or not. These things are what are "fixed" in our lives. You do decide if you want to rob a bank. You can change that...maybe with help but its not "fixed". You decide what you want to do in life, what you believe in, etc. You do have freewill.

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    What I think you are talking about is predestination I guess. You are saying the road map of our life is predestined what we will do long before we are born.
    kinda i guess, but its not like seeing the future its more like if u are subject to X situation u will exzibit Y behaviour wether u think u have a choice or not and u will never exzibit a Z behaviour towards the situation because u have no choice...u are pre-despositioned to choose Y even if u think u can choose Z if u really wanted to but u cant.


    Now I do believe in God and I do believe that God says our life as one big picture from start to finish and yes He knows before you are born what path you will choose but I do not believe that he picks me and says "this one will rob banks, get his cyber ass kicked and go to hell" and "that one will be a good boy and preach and come to heaven"
    if he already know wut each person would do in the future y wouldnt he say that? or just kill everyone and send the programmed creatures(humans) who have no control over their feelings/actions/choices to the nice place or the bad place haha...makes no sense

    what God knows is way too much for humans to understand and to be honest I do not want to know what He knows, I think my head would explode.
    see u cant choose wanting to know...cuz u never wouldve have wanted to know...and ull never have the option of wanting to know...wether u think u have a choice or not

    Other than a mental issue you can choose your own path but YES the map of your life has already been seen by God but that does not mean you did not choose it.. Gosh how to say this more clear.. God does not set you up to fail or win he allows you to do this yourself but He does now the outcome before you even get started
    .

    How can one change their own path?? U CANT, but if god knows the future and he created u, then he mustve set u up to either win or fail...if he didnt he wouldnt know the future...making him not god...but just a creator...the concept of god is kinda flawed dont ya think??

    Now the question is this IF God knows you are going to screwup and kill or whatever and end up in hell why does he not put up a road block to change you?? Free Will because God has already seen what is to happen so he will allow you to take the wide road to Hell or the narrow path to Him.
    well if he created u, ur way of thinking , ur chemistry , hormones , brain chemistry , enviorment u are in , etc.... how can u have free will?? ur just following a path which he set..and u cant possibly choose because u dont have the ability to do so.


    This is my opinion.. I won't know until I die.

    Oldman
    maybe we wont even know then...now that would suck wouldnt it

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by AIZ
    You are free to decide most things in life. Certain things you cannot. You don't decide when you will naturally die. You don't decide whether you can breathe oxygen or not. These things are what are "fixed" in our lives. You do decide if you want to rob a bank. You can change that...maybe with help but its not "fixed". You decide what you want to do in life, what you believe in, etc. You do have freewill.
    u think u are deciding...but wuts actually happenening is that...this wouldve happened wether u wanted to or not...cuz u cant choose...even if u say....oh im glad i didnt do that...i couldve done it..but i didnt...well no u didnt cuz u cant really choose the things u are going to do are set.

    well if one person lets say...is poor...and he then "DECIDEs" that he wants to make lots of money etc....see he didnt really decide nething...he was born poor, his brain is set to think like it is...he cannot think oh well u know wut im happy like this i dont want ne money...no he cant...thats just the way he is....there are different descicions for diff people yes, but we are not responsible for ne of them....we are not aware that we are programmed like that....sounds like something outta Sci-fi movie but thats how it is

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronFreakX
    u think u are deciding...but wuts actually happenening is that...this wouldve happened wether u wanted to or not...cuz u cant choose...even if u say....oh im glad i didnt do that...i couldve done it..but i didnt...well no u didnt cuz u cant really choose the things u are going to do are set.

    well if one person lets say...is poor...and he then "DECIDEs" that he wants to make lots of money etc....see he didnt really decide nething...he was born poor, his brain is set to think like it is...he cannot think oh well u know wut im happy like this i dont want ne money...no he cant...thats just the way he is....there are different descicions for diff people yes, but we are not responsible for ne of them....we are not aware that we are programmed like that....sounds like something outta Sci-fi movie but thats how it is

    If that is infact the way you look at life, I feel really bad for you.

  9. #9
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    You have some great points about the XYZ stuff but here is how I understand and believe it and I believe this with all my heart..


    You are born and you will die, everything during that time you control (other than if someone murders you etc etc...) Of course some will say, Oh he was killed early because of that murderer or cancer or whatever but I do not think so.. no where does it say we all get 100 years on this earth to do everything we should and could.

    Now if God already sees your life as one big picture Start to End why would he not just tell you?? Why should he? God is a Father of all and as a father He wants you to learn your way, make your own mistakes and let you have Free Will to do these things.. God also wants your love and respect and praise and most of all God wants your obedience.

    You wake up every morning with the choice to go to school/work or stay in bed. You have the choice to rob the local 7-11 or help an old lady cross the stress. You have the choice to respect God for what he has given you or you can smoke crack and hurt people. Which of these paths YOU choose will be where your end results will be when you get the the end of your life (Point Z). You may choose to have lots of sex, do drugs and live to be 100 years old and die in your sleep or you may help that old lady across the street and get hit by a car @ 22 years old.. You choose the path, but God has already seen it as it has already happened.. He did not choose it for you.

    I know this is hard to understand, it took me a long time to really sit down and gather my thoughts on this one.. Let me see if I can put this a way and let me know if this is where You Are.. You see from Gods side a picture of your life from start to finish.. Born >> school >> marriage >> lose job >> rob bank > jail time >> released from jail > get job > get fired > decide to rob another bank > get shot and killed. OK now God see your life as one big picture I think you are having a problem with the same thing I did because you are saying IF GOD has already seen THIS LIFE for me there is nothing I can do, Right?!?!? Very true you can't BUT if lets say we pick back up at the lose job >> (instead of rob bank) get another job >> work hard >> have children >> grow old with your wife >> die at age 86. Now Who changed your life?? YOU DID way to go Bro!!! God did not change it but now the hard part is seeing again from Gods eyes, did the picture change in the middle of your life?? NO Way.. it is still the same picture of your life but the path is no longer a path of destruction.. It is not like God was looking at your life in motion and it turned and got better, no no no.. it is still One Big Picture but with a different outcome because the first path was never chosen by you, you never robbed the bank so that was never written into eternity.

    It is just like all these DVD's now that have alternate endings.. If you watch the movie you see the ending.. you are fine with that ending but what if your DVD came default with a different ending, would you know?? what if all movies had different endings? (all the same movie) no one would know that they would think this is how the ending should have been.. Same thing in life, Your life is not pre-set up to do THIs or THAT.. you choose the path but I still say God can see it all at once.

    Now the question is does God put problems in your path to see how you react like some lab rat?? I don't think so.. I do believe that to someone that does worship God He is always there ready to give you a way out, maybe not be the way you want to get out but a way none the less. Is he changing your final outcome? Nope not at all.. again you choose.

    I hope that at least makes some sense of what I believe.


    Oldman

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldman
    What I think you are talking about is predestination I guess. You are saying the road map of our life is predestined what we will do long before we are born.

    Now I do believe in God and I do believe that God says our life as one big picture from start to finish and yes He knows before you are born what path you will choose but I do not believe that he picks me and says "this one will rob banks, get his cyber ass kicked and go to hell" and "that one will be a good boy and preach and come to heaven"

    what God knows is way too much for humans to understand and to be honest I do not want to know what He knows, I think my head would explode.

    Other than a mental issue you can choose your own path but YES the map of your life has already been seen by God but that does not mean you did not choose it.. Gosh how to say this more clear.. God does not set you up to fail or win he allows you to do this yourself but He does now the outcome before you even get started.

    Now the question is this IF God knows you are going to screwup and kill or whatever and end up in hell why does he not put up a road block to change you?? Free Will because God has already seen what is to happen so he will allow you to take the wide road to Hell or the narrow path to Him.

    This is my opinion.. I won't know until I die.

    Oldman

    U hit the nail on the head OLDMAN ! I AGREE !

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronFreakX
    u think u are deciding...but wuts actually happenening is that...this wouldve happened wether u wanted to or not...cuz u cant choose...even if u say....oh im glad i didnt do that...i couldve done it..but i didnt...well no u didnt cuz u cant really choose the things u are going to do are set.

    well if one person lets say...is poor...and he then "Decides" that he wants to make lots of money etc....see he didn't really decide nething...he was born poor, his brain is set to think like it is...he cannot think oh well u know wut im happy like this i dont want ne money...no he cant...thats just the way he is....there are different descicions for diff people yes, but we are not responsible for ne of them....we are not aware that we are programmed like that....sounds like something outta Sci-fi movie but thats how it is

    A poor man does not make him yearn for money. That is not pre-programmed in our brain.. That is pre-programmed by US, TV, Media.. more is better!! you don't have THIS... you're a loser. I am self-employed and I make a fair living but sure I always want to work harder and make more money but I do not think I am pre-programmed this way.. Heck when I was a kid I did not sit outside at lunch thinking hmmmm.. I need to work on my stock portfolio hee hee.

    See depending on where you live you probably have what you need. If you live in the USA and you complain you need more you are probably greedy.. Yes yes, before I get flamed, there are very poor people in the USA but take the poor in America and put them up against the "average folks" in Rwanda and the poor people in USA are rich beyond their wildest dreams. I know this because we sponsor a child from there anyway.. You are thinking wrong on this and I am sad because of it, not because I think you are wrong I think this because I am afraid you feel you have no control over your life and what is going to happen. You need a big hug


    Oldman
    Last edited by oldman; 11-30-2005 at 12:38 PM.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by IronFreakX
    u think u are deciding...but wuts actually happenening is that...this wouldve happened wether u wanted to or not...cuz u cant choose...even if u say....oh im glad i didnt do that...i couldve done it..but i didnt...well no u didnt cuz u cant really choose the things u are going to do are set.

    well if one person lets say...is poor...and he then "DECIDEs" that he wants to make lots of money etc....see he didnt really decide nething...he was born poor, his brain is set to think like it is...he cannot think oh well u know wut im happy like this i dont want ne money...no he cant...thats just the way he is....there are different descicions for diff people yes, but we are not responsible for ne of them....we are not aware that we are programmed like that....sounds like something outta Sci-fi movie but thats how it is
    ironfreakx , this whole thread shows that u r not an atheist , cause your whole point is about predestiny , so now i am confused , cause u have been portraying a satan worshipping image around here and now this ???? :hmmmm:

    not gettin at u bro , but i wanna know your stance about the whole god concept knowing your parents being muslim and all ................. and your hate with religion specially ISLAM , so knowing where u stand may help atleast me understand where u r comming form about this , thx ?

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    You wake up every morning with the choice to go to school/work or stay in bed. You have the choice to rob the local 7-11 or help an old lady cross the stress. You have the choice to respect God for what he has given you or you can smoke crack and hurt people. Which of these paths YOU choose will be where your end results will be when you get the the end of your life (Point Z). You may choose to have lots of sex, do drugs and live to be 100 years old and die in your sleep or you may help that old lady across the street and get hit by a car @ 22 years old.. You choose the path, but God has already seen it as it has already happened.. He did not choose it for you.
    see u cant really CHOOSE ne of the above a person who robs the local 7-11 is a person who robs the local 7-11 and a person who doesnt rob the local 7-11 isnt a person who robs the local 7-11 , they cant choose even tho it might look like they can , in reality they cant choose , their way of thinking and reacting to situations is already pre-determined,...how can they choose different from what they know/have when its the only thing they do?? u know its like a program or smth...its programmed to do only a certain number of tasks..just like humans...but due to the huge amount of different behaviours people think that they do have choices...but they really dont.

    I know this is hard to understand, it took me a long time to really sit down and gather my thoughts on this one.. Let me see if I can put this a way and let me know if this is where You Are.. You see from Gods side a picture of your life from start to finish.. Born >> school >> marriage >> lose job >> rob bank > jail time >> released from jail > get job > get fired > decide to rob another bank > get shot and killed. OK now God see your life as one big picture I think you are having a problem with the same thing I did because you are saying IF GOD has already seen THIS LIFE for me there is nothing I can do, Right?!?!? Very true you can't BUT if lets say we pick back up at the lose job >> (instead of rob bank) get another job >> work hard >> have children >> grow old with your wife >> die at age 86. Now Who changed your life?? YOU DID way to go Bro!!! God did not change it but now the hard part is seeing again from Gods eyes, did the picture change in the middle of your life?? NO Way.. it is still the same picture of your life but the path is no longer a path of destruction.. It is not like God was looking at your life in motion and it turned and got better, no no no.. it is still One Big Picture but with a different outcome because the first path was never chosen by you, you never robbed the bank so that was never written into eternity.
    well if god can see the future , then he cant change nething let alone us...doesnt make sense....and my argument is still the same basically...that if i never robbed the bank...then i never had a choice to do so...

    Now the question is does God put problems in your path to see how you react like some lab rat?? I don't think so.. I do believe that to someone that does worship God He is always there ready to give you a way out, maybe not be the way you want to get out but a way none the less. Is he changing your final outcome? Nope not at all.. again you choose.

    I hope that at least makes some sense of what I believe.


    Oldman
    [/QUOTE]

    Well I cant prove that god exists, I think it can be proven that he doesnt...cuz no1 has seen,heard , felt him therefore there is no proof...how was this world created then? i dunno really...

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    Quote Originally Posted by IronFreakX
    Well I cant prove that god exists, I think it can be proven that he doesnt...cuz no1 has seen,heard , felt him therefore there is no proof...how was this world created then? i dunno really...

    How do you know this to be true?

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    A poor man does not make him yearn for money. That is not pre-programmed in our brain.. That is pre-programmed by US, TV, Media.. more is better!! you don't have THIS... you're a loser. I am self-employed and I make a fair living but sure I always want to work harder and make more money but I do not think I am pre-programmed this way.. Heck when I was a kid I did not sit outside at lunch thinking hmmmm.. I need to work on my stock portfolio hee hee.
    Well he has no control over the enviorment he is brought into , therefore he cannot choose and change what has been imprinted in his personality

    See depending on where you live you probably have what you need. If you live in the USA and you complain you need more you are probably greedy.. Yes yes, before I get flamed, there are very poor people in the USA but take the poor in America and put them up against the "average folks" in Rwanda and the poor people in USA are rich beyond their wildest dreams. I know this because we sponsor a child from there anyway.. You are thinking wrong on this and I am sad because of it, not because I think you are wrong I think this because I am afraid you feel you have no control over your life and what is going to happen. You need a big hug


    Oldman

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    Quote Originally Posted by IronFreakX
    Well he has no control over the enviorment he is brought into , therefore he cannot choose and change what has been imprinted in his personality

    Then how do you explain the two brothers who grew up in a bad neighborhood, that lead completely different lives, one being a bum and the other being successful?

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    Quote Originally Posted by zOaib
    ironfreakx , this whole thread shows that u r not an atheist , cause your whole point is about predestiny , so now i am confused , cause u have been portraying a satan worshipping image around here and now this ???? :hmmmm:

    not gettin at u bro , but i wanna know your stance about the whole god concept knowing your parents being muslim and all ................. and your hate with religion specially ISLAM , so knowing where u stand may help atleast me understand where u r comming form about this , thx ?
    I dunno if Im an atheist or not, I hate being labeled as an atheist or a bodybuilder, esp when it comes to religion/god debate cuz i have alot of mixed ideas/thots and i dont really fit into one category

    lol man, I have never ever worshipped satan and never will, I did get involved in satanism but u do know that satanism has nothing to do with devil worshipping....but neway after taking about a year to get to know alot about it...I still think its a good religion...but i dont like/agree with some of the ideas there and i dont like being limited by rules.

    My hate towards muslims stems from alot of shit ive seen from em...the hate part is fading away slowly....but its still there....as for my hate towards islam, well i cant really say i hate islam its just a book full of stories and rules , some are good...but i dont agree with lots of stuff/rules/way of thinking and the whole god concept

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigen12
    How do you know this to be true?
    well i could be wrong, but till this day I have never heard of some1 having definate proof of god...Maybe they know and theyre hiding it from us all who knows

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    Quote Originally Posted by IronFreakX
    well i could be wrong, but till this day I have never heard of some1 having definate proof of god...Maybe they know and theyre hiding it from us all who knows
    More than likely those that have proclaimed to have talked to or seen god, have been labled as being mental, and I am sure that some are.

    Watch the movie, OH God with John Denver.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigen12
    Then how do you explain the two brothers who grew up in a bad neighborhood, that lead completely different lives, one being a bum and the other being successful?
    how do u explain me being raised almost all my life in a muslim arab country yet never had nething to do islam or the arab way of thinkin, culture etc... ??

    thats how my brain chemisty and genetic make up is....I did not choose not to like these things...i just dont...for reasons some of which i know some of which i dont....each person is programmed to a way of thinkin... enviormental factors do have an effect...but not the only effect

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigen12
    More than likely those that have proclaimed to have talked to or seen god, have been labled as being mental, and I am sure that some are.

    Watch the movie, OH God with John Denver.
    "talk to god , and ur a religious person...but if god answers back ur a physco.."

    kool, will do

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    I don't think I can prove to you there is a God and I cannot prove to you that you have free will but I can tell you this. I have been to the point in my life where I had a 357 in my mouth, while sitting on my bed, alone, scared, not knowing where my life was going or what I was going to do. I had not other way out, I thought, I had the hammer pulled back and my finger on the trigger and I ask God to please forgive me for what I was about to do. God spoke to me, not audibly, but in my heart I felt Him tell me that I could no longer live for myself but I had to live for my wife and daughter. I felt his hand that night and I truly believe that he allowed me to make the choice to live or die.. 1/16" of an inch pull and I would not be here typing.. This was my choice I think, God is not going to come smack the gun out of my hand, I actually asked him first if he did not want me to do it to show himself to me but he did not.. but he did reveal himself by sending the holy spirit into me and I choose to put the gun down.

    I am not making a story up to try to say lookie here proof.. God does not reveal himself to everyone but believers have the HS living in them but our flesh, human nature has the power to do whatever we want.. Now can God knock you out of the way of that speeding bus or actually even better.. You are on your way to 7-11 to rob it can God have a car run you over so you end up in the hospital and not rob the store?? sure, does this happen?? I don't know.


    sorry I have gone off topic, I just want you to let go and let your mind listen for Him. I have a feeling you are being poked by the HS because if you were not you would not care.. God is trying to talk to you, I think..

    Just for the background on my, I did not grow up in church My stepfather was Roman Catholic and my mother was Jewish. We had No religion in our house. I was saved at 32 years old with no real prior church background.

    Anyway Bro I am going to pray for you, I know you may not want it but I will be and I hope you find what you are looking for. I do not push Jesus or God on anyone I think each person has to make their own minds up on this I can live with this. I am responsible for me and those god puts in my path. I pray you are one of them

    Oldman

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigen12
    More than likely those that have proclaimed to have talked to or seen god, have been labled as being mental, and I am sure that some are.

    Watch the movie, OH God with John Denver.

    oh no I am "ONE OF THOSE" hee hee.. just kidding.. I have never seen God but I can look out my front door and see all He as made.

    Oldman

    PS IronFreakX, if you are not offended please email me your name (first name is fine) I would like to pray for you but paying for IronFreakX kind of throws me off. LOL I understand because of the nature of this forum you do not want to, God knows who you are anyway.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldman
    I don't think I can prove to you there is a God and I cannot prove to you that you have free will but I can tell you this. I have been to the point in my life where I had a 357 in my mouth, while sitting on my bed, alone, scared, not knowing where my life was going or what I was going to do. I had not other way out, I thought, I had the hammer pulled back and my finger on the trigger and I ask God to please forgive me for what I was about to do. God spoke to me, not audibly, but in my heart I felt Him tell me that I could no longer live for myself but I had to live for my wife and daughter. I felt his hand that night and I truly believe that he allowed me to make the choice to live or die.. 1/16" of an inch pull and I would not be here typing.. This was my choice I think, God is not going to come smack the gun out of my hand, I actually asked him first if he did not want me to do it to show himself to me but he did not.. but he did reveal himself by sending the holy spirit into me and I choose to put the gun down.

    I am not making a story up to try to say lookie here proof.. God does not reveal himself to everyone but believers have the HS living in them but our flesh, human nature has the power to do whatever we want.. Now can God knock you out of the way of that speeding bus or actually even better.. You are on your way to 7-11 to rob it can God have a car run you over so you end up in the hospital and not rob the store?? sure, does this happen?? I don't know.


    sorry I have gone off topic, I just want you to let go and let your mind listen for Him. I have a feeling you are being poked by the HS because if you were not you would not care.. God is trying to talk to you, I think..

    Just for the background on my, I did not grow up in church My stepfather was Roman Catholic and my mother was Jewish. We had No religion in our house. I was saved at 32 years old with no real prior church background.

    Anyway Bro I am going to pray for you, I know you may not want it but I will be and I hope you find what you are looking for. I do not push Jesus or God on anyone I think each person has to make their own minds up on this I can live with this. I am responsible for me and those god puts in my path. I pray you are one of them

    Oldman
    I know how it feels like when ur really down. wether its my brain chemistry...the early drinkin(10) , the sedatives or just me...I dunno...I have never been THAT close to suicide...but i have been close along with some SI...and as much as i think i woulda loved to think that theyres some1 or smth looking out for me...even if...it still doesnt make nething better...

    Well what if ur mind was acting out and makin u believe that god infact did speak to u??? self preservation is the highest law.... unconciaslly u do want to survive at all costs..its human nature/instict....but sometimes we overcome it and decide that its not worth it....look people who have MPI(multiple personality disorder) really do believe that they are different people when they do change..Im not saying u are..Im just sayin...if we wanna believe smth soo bad...maybe we will u know??

  25. #25
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    I think I see what you are saying.. basically repeat something enough times and you will believe it. I fully agree with you on this this is what has made so many False religions, someone does not agree with what they hear at their church so they run off and start their own and say it over and over We are the one True Church, We are the on True Church, We are the one True Church.. Oh My, I think we must be the One True Church.. Joseph Smith did this and stated the LDS.

    Anyway that is a debate for another day

    I have been where you are now, not knowing but truly wanting to know. I am a man of reason and facts. I am a computer programmer (website databases) is my "main" job/career and I know that if all the code is not perfect things do not work like they should so I do not take anything at face value, I must know why, how, when something is what it is. Things are a little different with my relationship with my Father (God) I have faith and trust in him and even though I know I can and do make poor choices that the end of the road will lead me to him.

    Again I am not trying to push God on you but I do hope you will not think that your life is set in stone and you have no control over it, you do.


    Oldman

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    Back to "free will": Think of it this way: If I was thinking of coming over to your place to kick your ass for this ongoing thread, I could decide not to kick your ass. That would be my decision. Hence, free will.

    Your decisions for your life are in your hands. That's the beauty. You decide what you want to believe. You decide what you want to with your life. You decide and no one else does. G-d, if you believe, gave us free will. Now, its up to us to make the best of things. Be happy and just revel in the fact that you get to choose for yourself.

    By the way, I've decided not to kick your ass: free will

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by AIZ
    By the way, I've decided not to kick your ass: free will



  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldman


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    man, it sucks waking up and all this happened...i feel left out. hehe.

    iron... if we do not make decisions, what is it that makes our decisions for us?

    Quote Originally Posted by IRONFREAKX
    Well he has no control over the enviorment he is brought into , therefore he cannot choose and change what has been imprinted in his personality
    and to answer my question, you cant use the above, its totally a false statement, and to prove its false, look at your own life. youve proven it false with just what youve talked about yourself on this board...being raised in egypt, being raised muslim, now you are moving to the US and are satanist.

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    People who think they have "free will" are sorely mistaken......to claim freewill is to claim a person is God........"free will" is a term often used by preachers to free will you out of your money........another term is "love " offering

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by AIZ
    Back to "free will": Think of it this way: If I was thinking of coming over to your place to kick your ass for this ongoing thread, I could decide not to kick your ass. That would be my decision. Hence, free will.

    Your decisions for your life are in your hands. That's the beauty. You decide what you want to believe. You decide what you want to with your life. You decide and no one else does. G-d, if you believe, gave us free will. Now, its up to us to make the best of things. Be happy and just revel in the fact that you get to choose for yourself.

    By the way, I've decided not to kick your ass: free will
    see u cant kick my ass, not cause u chose not to...but because u are not programmed to kick some1s ass in this situation...therefore u never will...maybe if some1 annoys u yes..but not now(im not annoyin u am i )....and also cuz Im rougher and tougher than u

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    man, it sucks waking up and all this happened...i feel left out. hehe.

    iron... if we do not make decisions, what is it that makes our decisions for us?



    and to answer my question, you cant use the above, its totally a false statement, and to prove its false, look at your own life. youve proven it false with just what youve talked about yourself on this board...being raised in egypt, being raised muslim, now you are moving to the US and are satanist.
    Well Im not a satanist Ive only lived in the states for 3 years (i doubt that had nething to do with it) but even if i did live in japan or europe or wutever....some things will still be the same...and like i said enviormental factors are only part of the equation...

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badgerman
    People who think they have "free will" are sorely mistaken......to claim freewill is to claim a person is God........"free will" is a term often used by preachers to free will you out of your money........another term is "love " offering
    AMEN, is sort of a god , but not GOD...cuz the god concept is flawed

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    THis is (books555), sorry about the debate Max I had to leave for Ohio on short notice. I am back now, and hope to continue where I left off. I cant access books555 (my original name) because someone changed my password (I think). Hopefully things will get cleared up.

    Iron, please clarify your definition of free will.

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