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  1. #1
    boots555's Avatar
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    How do we know the bible is true.

    Zacharias answeres this question at the University of Illinois. He also adresses the question "Why would God create a soul that he knows will reject him and spend eternity in hell.

    http://www.rzim.org/radio/archives.p...=detail&id=556


    Its only 15 minutes, I suggest everyone listen to it if they have time to spare. Its powerful.

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    Suppose you give us his major points . . . save us all from wasting 15 minutes of time listening to his nonsense . . .
    -Tock

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    This is actually a really good one. He talks about the prophecy in the book of Daniel that is so specific, liberal theologians tried but failed to dissprove its written date for years. Zacharias adresses Islam quickly also.

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    Quote Originally Posted by boots555
    This is actually a really good one. He talks about the prophecy in the book of Daniel that is so specific, liberal theologians tried but failed to dissprove its written date for years. Zacharias adresses Islam quickly also.
    And what prophecy would that be?
    And while you're at it, which "liberal theologians" dissented, and what exactly did they say?
    -Tock

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tock
    And what prophecy would that be?
    And while you're at it, which "liberal theologians" dissented, and what exactly did they say?
    -Tock

    Tock, how about you listen to the broadcast and quit being so stubborn.

  6. #6
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    I have little patience for preachers and their preachery. Anything this one of yours has to say that's worth listening to, I'm sure, can be comfortably scrawled on the back side of a postage stamp with a magic marker.

    But if you think your guy has something worth hearing, why not summarize his points here? Then, if we think we won't be wasting our time, we can tune in to your website and see for ourselves.

    -Tock

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    ill listen tomorrow...sounds interresting. im not lazy.

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    This guy get paid to speak around the world?!?! He brings up the resurection, probably a bad move on his part. He argues the roman authorities could have presented the body of christ, but waht he doesn't seem understand is the absence of a body isn't proof of resurection, and it certainly doesn't prove the bible true. He talks about The bible referring to alexander the great, I think he even used the word "probably" in saying so. This guy just made a fool of him self and didn't prove anything to be true, except his blind faith in the bible.

  9. #9
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    if the body had been found by the romans, do you not think they would have immediatly brought it forward to prove jesus was just full of lies? why/how could jesus' followers steal it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    if the body had been found by the romans, do you not think they would have immediatly brought it forward to prove jesus was just full of lies? why/how could jesus' followers steal it?
    it wasn't the romans who believed jesus was a fraud it was the jews.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1morerep
    it wasn't the romans who believed jesus was a fraud it was the jews.
    So the romans didn't sentence Jesus to death because he was thought to be a false prophet?

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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    if the body had been found by the romans, do you not think they would have immediatly brought it forward to prove jesus was just full of lies?
    I'm sure they had better things to do. In 30 AD, the Christian cult was about as important as the David Koresh cult was to the US government. No need to prove to anybody that either Jesus or Koresh wasn't what he claimed himself to be.







    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    why/how could jesus' followers steal it?
    If a stone could be moved to seal a cave opening by day, there's no reason it couldn't have been unsealed in the middle of the night.
    For motivation, well, one surefire way to get the poorly educated followers stirred up was to create an "urban legend" that his body had been raised from the dead. Get rid of the body, tell the rabble that it was done by magic, and voila! instant religion, jobs for a new priesthood, money from and influence over lots of people, ya, no reason why it couldn't have been done that way. Just look at L. Ron Hubbard's manufacture of the Scientology religion. Looniest religion of them all, but it's supported by lots and lots of people. Proves that people will beleive anything . . .

    -Tock

  13. #13
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    I hope this comment was a joke. Otherwise it wasnt very nice and I se nothing in this thread that warrants that response

    Johan
    Last edited by Kärnfysikern; 12-03-2005 at 06:46 AM.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1morerep
    it wasn't the romans who believed jesus was a fraud it was the jews.
    but jesus was causing problems for the romans and thus had a certain political view against jesus. jews believed Him a fraud yes, but they too were unable to bring forth a body.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tock
    I'm sure they had better things to do. In 30 AD, the Christian cult was about as important as the David Koresh cult was to the US government. No need to prove to anybody that either Jesus or Koresh wasn't what he claimed himself to be.
    and where did this come from? how do you know they had better things to do? what in your opinion was more important than a man, claiming to be the messiah, converting many people to believe against that of the sanctioned religion, causing major 'ruckus' for the religion and at the same time, causing major 'ruckus' for the political side.

    Quote Originally Posted by TOCK
    If a stone could be moved to seal a cave opening by day, there's no reason it couldn't have been unsealed in the middle of the night.
    For motivation, well, one surefire way to get the poorly educated followers stirred up was to create an "urban legend" that his body had been raised from the dead. Get rid of the body, tell the rabble that it was done by magic, and voila! instant religion, jobs for a new priesthood, money from and influence over lots of people, ya, no reason why it couldn't have been done that way. Just look at L. Ron Hubbard's manufacture of the Scientology religion. Looniest religion of them all, but it's supported by lots and lots of people. Proves that people will beleive anything . . .

    -Tock
    yea sure it could be unsealed, if there werent trained guards making sure that didnt happen. what motivation?? the followerers werent following jesus because they wanted a religion. they followed Him because they believed he was the messiah. why would they even think to move the body if they honestly believed He would raise after the 3rd day? and it was not instant religion, nor jobs nor money!! more like instant killing of the believers for believeing in Jesus, no jobs since it was illegal, and definatly not money. nothing you wrote here holds any water.

  16. #16
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    Max would you agree that the bible can not be proven true?

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    If you look in historical burials the stone that was supposedly "rolled" away wasn't rolled at all the tomb openings were square, thusly, making the stone door square, and it was sealed around the cracks with a substance similar to cement not to mention it weighed over 2000 lbs. The bible uses "rolled" metaphorically, and there were trained roman guards guarding the entrace to the tomb.

  18. #18
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    BB, depends. I would say there are aspects of the bible that cant be proven true. i cant prove to you that water was turned to wine. i cant prove to you that adam and eve were really the first man and woman created. I consider the bible a history book. And just like any history book, there are things that cant be proven. Can we prove that ben franklin really used a kite with a key attached to it to test electricity? no. But we believe it to be fact, no doubt. there are things in the bible that can be proven. but also there has been nothing ever found/discovered that has proven any aspect of the bible false.

    also depends on if you mean 'physically proven true' or any kind of proof. logical proof to me is almost as high as physical truth, but not quite. in the example of the tomb. it doesnt make logical sense at all for Jesus's body to dissappear and not be brought forth. romans/jews would have to prove he wasnt messiah and that they were right/stop any political issues. believers had no reason to steal it in the first place because they believed he would rise. thieves may have a reason, perhaps to sell to the jews/romans, but how would they get passed the roman guards, and then if they had, the body would have been presented. logically, it makes no sense that the body was stolen. i believe he was ressurrected. i cant physically or scientifically prove that, but i can logically. which is more than anyone else can prove about it without proving the entire bible wrong.

    your thoughts?

  19. #19
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    I think logically there couldn't be a version of the resurection in the bible that would leave obvious room for question of an event. The bible has had a few centuries to work out all the kinks, and I doubt that even most of it holds true to actual event. Would followers of jesus allow a fundamentally flawed foundation for a religion? Heavens no. Would it be all mighty if jesus disappeared from a shallow ditch? Or even an unguarded tomb. No, but by adding a guard here, and a big rock there, it may seem more miraculous while not changing the the core message that is intended to be given by the story.


    Details are key to have the belief of those who may consider doubt, but not crucial to the over all message of the bible has to give.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pro_built7
    If you look in historical burials
    ya, like there's lots of information around about burials (actually, in this case, entombments) from 2000 years ago. And what sources do you have on this?






    Quote Originally Posted by Pro_built7
    the stone that was supposedly "rolled" away wasn't rolled at all the tomb openings were square, thusly, making the stone door square, and it was sealed around the cracks with a substance similar to cement not to mention it weighed over 2000 lbs. The bible uses "rolled" metaphorically,
    I don't know that the stone in question was round, square, oval, or conic. But it makes no difference . . . anything that can be done can be undone, given enough manpower. All we're concerned with here is moving one rock, not moving the Great Pyramid of Giza.








    Quote Originally Posted by Pro_built7
    and there were trained roman guards guarding the entrace to the tomb.
    The gospels do not all agree on this point . . . some say there were guards, some don't mention them.
    If you check out Dan Barker's "Easter Challenge" at http://ffrf.org/books/lfif/stone.php you'll discover that the 4 gospels differ quite a bit on details like this, so you're on shaky ground to cite any one or two scripture verses and assume it must be true.

    Even if there were trained Roman guards at the tomb (who wouldn't have been guarding the stone if it was considered immovable), there's nothing to prevent them from being overpowered by either an unruly mob or a few determined terrorists.

    -Tock

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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    I consider the bible a history book. And just like any history book, there are things that cant be proven. Can we prove that ben franklin really used a kite with a key attached to it to test electricity? no. But we believe it to be fact, no doubt.
    The difference between Ben Franklin and his kite and the legends of the Bible is that no one is told they will be condemned to Hellfire if they don't agree to beleive in Ben Franklin's kite. People are not badgered to attend a Kite Church and tithe to it; people do not have to sit and listen to dull sermons about the nature of electricity. Gay people are not told they cannot use electricity or become electricians. Electrical engineers do not intrude upon other people's reproductive choices, or tell them they cannot drink, play cards, or dance on Sundays. So, it really doesn't make much difference what anyone's opinion is on this topic.

    In contrast, the day that the power company sends me a note with my monthly bill telling me I should attend confession, eat fish on Friday, and give my heart to electrons to avoid an unpleasant afterlife, will be the day I require they prove that what they say is true. And I hold Christians to the same standard.


    Anyway, it's obvious that the stories of people walking on water, flying to heaven into outer space, and of talking animals are nothing more than any other ancient tale of fiction. At least we know that Ben Franklin invented the lightning rod (which, curiously, had been condemned by Christians as heresy, and as an insult to God, for attempting to control the electrical bolts He sent to destroy human abodes. http://www.edwardtbabinski.us/skepticism/franklin.html



    Ya, the religious take on all this doesn't hold much water.

    -Tock

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeerBaron
    I think logically there couldn't be a version of the resurection in the bible that would leave obvious room for question of an event. The bible has had a few centuries to work out all the kinks, and I doubt that even most of it holds true to actual event. Would followers of jesus allow a fundamentally flawed foundation for a religion? Heavens no. Would it be all mighty if jesus disappeared from a shallow ditch? Or even an unguarded tomb. No, but by adding a guard here, and a big rock there, it may seem more miraculous while not changing the the core message that is intended to be given by the story.


    Details are key to have the belief of those who may consider doubt, but not crucial to the over all message of the bible has to give.
    So how does it make sense logically if jesus was in a ditch or an unguarded tomb? He was causing a lot of problems. wouldnt the jews and romans want to prove he wasnt the messiah by proving he wasnt ressurrected? or are you saying that the romans/jews/'christians'/jesus were all in this together to full the world??

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tock

    The gospels do not all agree on this point . . . some say there were guards, some don't mention them.
    so now if a gospel doesnt mention a guard presen, its the same as the gospel saying there wasnt any guards?? come on. you really think thats gonna win any arguements??

    Quote Originally Posted by TOCK
    Even if there were trained Roman guards at the tomb (who wouldn't have been guarding the stone if it was considered immovable), there's nothing to prevent them from being overpowered by either an unruly mob or a few determined terrorists.

    -Tock
    for what reason would anyone want to steal the body?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tock
    The difference between Ben Franklin and his kite and the legends of the Bible is that no one is told they will be condemned to Hellfire if they don't agree to beleive in Ben Franklin's kite.
    oh, so the reason the kite story is true and the ressurrection is not is because you dont like the fact that there is punishment... interresting.

    Quote Originally Posted by TOCK
    People are not badgered to attend a Kite Church and tithe to it; people do not have to sit and listen to dull sermons about the nature of electricity. Gay people are not told they cannot use electricity or become electricians. Electrical engineers do not intrude upon other people's reproductive choices, or tell them they cannot drink, play cards, or dance on Sundays.

    In contrast, the day that the power company sends me a note with my monthly bill telling me I should attend confession, eat fish on Friday, and give my heart to electrons to avoid an unpleasant afterlife, will be the day I require they prove that what they say is true. And I hold Christians to the same standard.
    -Tock
    you hold God to the same standard as the power company?? lol! ok...

    you dont have to tithe to a church. you dont have to listen to church sermons. or anything else. but then theres a risk you wont have God in your corner. just like you dont have to pay your electric bill. you dont have to listen to them when they call on the 2nd/3rd notice. but then you run the risk of not having electric.

  25. #25
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    bible is a book of lies, untill i get some tangable proof that it is not i will not change my opinion on this.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    So how does it make sense logically if jesus was in a ditch or an unguarded tomb? He was causing a lot of problems. wouldnt the jews and romans want to prove he wasnt the messiah by proving he wasnt ressurrected? or are you saying that the romans/jews/'christians'/jesus were all in this together to full the world??

    You're missing my point. The resurrection is a story meant to be perceived as miraculous. I'm saying it is more likely that the story was embellished in regards to what actually happened after the crusifiction, than some profoud resurrection and christ some how warping out of some inescapable tomb. But I'm a skeptic at heart.

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    Originally Posted by Tock
    The difference between Ben Franklin and his kite and the legends of the Bible is that no one is told they will be condemned to Hellfire if they don't agree to beleive in Ben Franklin's kite.

    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    oh, so the reason the kite story is true and the ressurrection is not is because you dont like the fact that there is punishment... interresting.
    No, that's not what I'm getting at . . .
    Folks are told in history books that Franklin experimented with electricity using kites. Nobody is asked to base their entire philosophy of life upon this tid-bit of information. We are free to beleive it, or not, and there are no consequenses one way or the other.

    However, people are not only told that they MUST beleive in the bible's stories or else they will suffer unspeakable torment in the next life (and not infrequently, doubters suffer unspeakable torment in this life at the hands of beleivers).

    So, comparing the Bible's historicity to that of Ben Franklin's study of electricity is really like comparing human's need for air to the need for cable TV.

    -Tock

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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    you dont have to tithe to a church. you dont have to listen to church sermons. or anything else. but then theres a risk you wont have God in your corner. just like you dont have to pay your electric bill. you dont have to listen to them when they call on the 2nd/3rd notice. but then you run the risk of not having electric.
    Another false analogy.

    If you don't pay your electric bill, you will soon be without electricity.
    If you don't go to church, there is zero risk that you will lose whatever contact you had with The Supreme Being.

    -Tock

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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    so now if a gospel doesnt mention a guard presen, its the same as the gospel saying there wasnt any guards??
    The point is that the four gospels have strikingly different accounts of what happened at the site of the tomb. If each one is supposed to be a 100% reliable account of what happened, they should be similar. But, they aren't.

    For instance, at http://www.themodernreligion.com/com...ble_easter.htm
    one of the differences between the supposedly "perfect" gospels is this issue:

    When Mary returned from the tomb, did she know Jesus had been resurrected?
    Matthew: Yes (28:7-8)
    Mark: Yes (16:10,11)
    Luke: Yes (24:6-9,23)
    John: No (20:2)

    So, what I'm saying is, the Bible is NOT perfect, is NOT without flaw, and assuming that everything that The Creator of The Universe is incapable of creating anything imperfect, it is therefore NOT the inerrant message of The Creator.

    So there.






    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    for what reason would anyone want to steal the body?
    Simple.

    If the administrators behind Jesus' movement were aware that He was supposed to raise up from the dead (or even if they weren't aware of that), one surefire way to keep the organization going (and the money coming in) would be to make it seem like His body had done so.

    Seems to me that there wouldn't be any need for opening of the tomb to enable His body to be resurrected (after all, there are lots of dead Christians buried under lots of dirt who supposedly will be resurrected right through all that concrete and dirt they're under), but according to the Legend, the rock that sealed the tomb was opened. If people wanted to spread the notion that Jesus had been raised from the dead, especially among uneducated rubes, grabbing the body and leaving the tomb open would be the way to do it.

    -Tock

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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    if the body had been found by the romans, do you not think they would have immediatly brought it forward to prove jesus was just full of lies? why/how could jesus' followers steal it?
    Actually when Jesus was born the King of Rome sent soliders to kill Joseph and Mary along with there new born baby...(Jesus).... The Jews are the ones that gave Mary and Joseph aid and sanctuary. When Jesus got older thats when Jewish people started to see him as a fraud.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BeerBaron
    You're missing my point. The resurrection is a story meant to be perceived as miraculous. I'm saying it is more likely that the story was embellished in regards to what actually happened after the crusifiction, than some profoud resurrection and christ some how warping out of some inescapable tomb. But I'm a skeptic at heart.
    how do you explain the increased zest of his believers and the astounding increase of followers and the immediate wide spread of its teachings? of course today we have to look at it what was written about it, but at that time, there were eye witnesses. it wasnt just the writers of the bible that were witness to this. people stopped everything they were doing to travel over land and sea just to spread the word. that doesnt just happen if there are doubts of its truth.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tock
    Originally Posted by Tock
    The difference between Ben Franklin and his kite and the legends of the Bible is that no one is told they will be condemned to Hellfire if they don't agree to beleive in Ben Franklin's kite.



    No, that's not what I'm getting at . . .
    Folks are told in history books that Franklin experimented with electricity using kites. Nobody is asked to base their entire philosophy of life upon this tid-bit of information. We are free to beleive it, or not, and there are no consequenses one way or the other.

    However, people are not only told that they MUST beleive in the bible's stories or else they will suffer unspeakable torment in the next life (and not infrequently, doubters suffer unspeakable torment in this life at the hands of beleivers).

    So, comparing the Bible's historicity to that of Ben Franklin's study of electricity is really like comparing human's need for air to the need for cable TV.

    -Tock
    history is history, whether its about a kite, or its about the messiah. im not talking about any outcomes because of. either it historically happened or it didnt. doesnt matter what the message is.

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tock
    The point is that the four gospels have strikingly different accounts of what happened at the site of the tomb. If each one is supposed to be a 100% reliable account of what happened, they should be similar. But, they aren't.

    For instance, at http://www.themodernreligion.com/com...ble_easter.htm
    one of the differences between the supposedly "perfect" gospels is this issue:

    When Mary returned from the tomb, did she know Jesus had been resurrected?
    Matthew: Yes (28:7-8)
    Mark: Yes (16:10,11)
    Luke: Yes (24:6-9,23)
    John: No (20:2)

    So, what I'm saying is, the Bible is NOT perfect, is NOT without flaw, and assuming that everything that The Creator of The Universe is incapable of creating anything imperfect, it is therefore NOT the inerrant message of The Creator.

    So there.
    so mary couldnt have said what she did?? automatically the bible is wrong?? why cant the bible be right and mary said what she said? i remember a post where you said you dont know if you believe in god or not, just not the true god. (*smile*) but also, from a lot of posts it seems like you are a total atheist, especially from your avatar. so does that mean that ar.com is wrong because you you said you may believe 'in a god' but you have the mother of atheism as your avatar? seems contradictory to me. it very possibly could mean that mary didnt truly believe what she was seeing. and when she talked to john, she was talking how she logically felt because the logical explanation would be 'they have taken his body'. who knows. but i dont see how this shows the bible is wrong, moreso that the bible is right and gave what mary said.

    Quote Originally Posted by TOCK

    Simple.

    If the administrators behind Jesus' movement were aware that He was supposed to raise up from the dead (or even if they weren't aware of that), one surefire way to keep the organization going (and the money coming in) would be to make it seem like His body had done so.

    Seems to me that there wouldn't be any need for opening of the tomb to enable His body to be resurrected (after all, there are lots of dead Christians buried under lots of dirt who supposedly will be resurrected right through all that concrete and dirt they're under), but according to the Legend, the rock that sealed the tomb was opened. If people wanted to spread the notion that Jesus had been raised from the dead, especially among uneducated rubes, grabbing the body and leaving the tomb open would be the way to do it.

    -Tock
    what organization? there was no money in this. nothing to gain (earthly), except death. so again, wheres the gain?
    Last edited by max2extreme; 12-04-2005 at 05:32 PM.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nismo
    Actually when Jesus was born the King of Rome sent soliders to kill Joseph and Mary along with there new born baby...(Jesus).... The Jews are the ones that gave Mary and Joseph aid and sanctuary. When Jesus got older thats when Jewish people started to see him as a fraud.
    sorry, i dont get what you are saying. i know what you say, i just dont know where it fits into the present debate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    sorry, i dont get what you are saying. i know what you say, i just dont know where it fits into the present debate.
    Oh! they were talking about who tried to have Jesus killed, The Romans or the Jews. Just scroll up its up there somewhere. I think I had a quote with my comment also.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BeerBaron
    This guy get paid to speak around the world?!?! He brings up the resurection, probably a bad move on his part. He argues the roman authorities could have presented the body of christ, but waht he doesn't seem understand is the absence of a body isn't proof of resurection, and it certainly doesn't prove the bible true. He talks about The bible referring to alexander the great, I think he even used the word "probably" in saying so. This guy just made a fool of him self and didn't prove anything to be true, except his blind faith in the bible.


    The evidence for the ressurection of Jesus Christ, would even today stand up in any court room in America.

    It is a stumbling block for all liberal theologians.

    After Christ death he appeard to not only believers but unbelievers skeptics and large gatherings.

    The ressurection is one of the easiest arguements to defend. I truly believe that God intentionally made it fool proof.


    Remember there was eigther a roman or temple guard placed in front of the tomb. Some scholars believe the guard placed there could have been as large as 30 soldiers.


    Read Daniel, The prophecy is extremely specific, liberal scholars have to bend over back to even attempt to confront biblical issues like this one.


    This man is considered by many secularist as one of the greatest minds of our day.

    I honestly have never heard him make a fool of himself. He is very articulate and careful with his wording

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tock
    The point is that the four gospels have strikingly different accounts of what happened at the site of the tomb. If each one is supposed to be a 100% reliable account of what happened, they should be similar. But, they aren't.

    For instance, at http://www.themodernreligion.com/com...ble_easter.htm
    one of the differences between the supposedly "perfect" gospels is this issue:

    When Mary returned from the tomb, did she know Jesus had been resurrected?
    Matthew: Yes (28:7-8)
    Mark: Yes (16:10,11)
    Luke: Yes (24:6-9,23)
    John: No (20:2)

    So, what I'm saying is, the Bible is NOT perfect, is NOT without flaw, and assuming that everything that The Creator of The Universe is incapable of creating anything imperfect, it is therefore NOT the inerrant message of The Creator.

    So there.







    Simple.

    If the administrators behind Jesus' movement were aware that He was supposed to raise up from the dead (or even if they weren't aware of that), one surefire way to keep the organization going (and the money coming in) would be to make it seem like His body had done so.

    Seems to me that there wouldn't be any need for opening of the tomb to enable His body to be resurrected (after all, there are lots of dead Christians buried under lots of dirt who supposedly will be resurrected right through all that concrete and dirt they're under), but according to the Legend, the rock that sealed the tomb was opened. If people wanted to spread the notion that Jesus had been raised from the dead, especially among uneducated rubes, grabbing the body and leaving the tomb open would be the way to do it.

    -Tock

    Tock, your going to have to get better arguements. Myself or max can easily rebutall. Tock this is same crap you always use. The answers are easy, only takes a little research if you not familiar with it.

  38. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    how do you explain the increased zest of his believers and the astounding increase of followers and the immediate wide spread of its teachings? .
    Scientology is doing pretty good for itself these days, and its founder died about 30 years ago.
    Goes to show ya that quantity of followers doesn't mean the religion is any good.
    Same thing applies to the zestful Mormons, Muslims and Wiccans, along with lots of others . . . lots of craziness to go around.

    -Tock

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    Quote Originally Posted by boots555
    The evidence for the ressurection of Jesus Christ, would even today stand up in any court room in America.
    No it wouldn't.

    -Tock

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by boots555
    The evidence for the ressurection of Jesus Christ, would even today stand up in any court room in America.

    It wouldn't hold up in any court, it's all hearsay.

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