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  1. #1
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    If Bush lied...so did everyone else

    Everyone knows (or thinks they know) that Bush lied about Iraq's WMD program, which was one of the main justifications for the Iraq War. Well, if Bush lied, then all of Bush's opponents also lied too:

    This is my favorite: John Kerry 2002: "I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force-if necessary- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security."

    Few months before invasion: Hans Blix 2003 , "The discovery of 122-mm chemical rocket warheads in a bunker...relatively new bunker...the discovery of a few rockets does not resolve but rather points to the issue of several thousands of chemical rockets that are unaccounted for."

    Clinton '98: "If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons-of-mass-destruction program."

    Hillary Clinton 2002: "...reports show Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock...and his nuclear program."

    Gore 2002: "Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power."

    Gore 2002: "We know that Saddam has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country."

    Robert Byrd 2002: "We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons...Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons."

    Senator Bob Graham 2001: "There is no doubt that...Saddam Hussein has invigorated his weapons program. Reports indicate that biological, chemical, and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status."

  2. #2
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    *weeping* dang liars...

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    BOUNCER is offline Retired Vet
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    And thats suppose to excuse an unjust war?.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BOUNCER
    And thats suppose to excuse an unjust war?.
    To answer your question as it pertains to the notion of an "unjust war" then of course not. However, when Democrats and Republicans in the U.S. agree on a danger (enough to engage) as well as confirmation of WMD by French, German, British, Israeli, Australian, and U.S. intelligence, the justification for invasion seems far from being unjust. Also, the U.N. Charter states that a nation reserves the "inherent right of self-defense" and this is preceisly what the legal justification for the war in Iraq was. The U.S. felt that Iraq posed an imminent danger. This was not b/c they felt he was going to attack the U.S. but due to his overt links to terrorism and the high probability that he would hand over materials necessary for a terror org to use WMD.

    Remember, not everyone feels the war was unjust.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AIZ

    Remember, not everyone feels the war was unjust.

    Yea , who? Haliburton , KBR ? It's funny , everyone I talk to thinks it was .

    Bush created the lies , all the others were supplied the info and went off what was supposed to be the truth . And even if they are liers too , bigggg surprise .

    That makes me feel so much better .

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by O.fO.shO
    Yea , who? Haliburton , KBR ? It's funny , everyone I talk to thinks it was .

    Bush created the lies , all the others were supplied the info and went off what was supposed to be the truth . And even if they are liers too , bigggg surprise .

    That makes me feel so much better .
    Its not meant to make you feel better but rather point out some of the truths involved instead of focusing on all of the negativity. Recently, UN specialists returned from Iraq and commented on how well the US-led coalition is progressing in nation-building. It's not an easy job. The media only shows the negative aspects simply b/c no one watches when soldiers are buidling schools and mosques or escorting children to school to protect them from terrorist. Everyone watches when bombs go off or accusations start flying.

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    BOUNCER is offline Retired Vet
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    Quote Originally Posted by AIZ
    UN specialists returned from Iraq and commented on how well the US-led coalition is progressing in nation-building. It's not an easy job.

    The US broke it, the US can fix it!.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOUNCER
    The US broke it, the US can fix it!.
    Saddam broke it, the Americans destroyed it, and yes, I agree...America should rebuild it...with the help of Iraqis.

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    i dont think the war was unjust.

    i have a question...why SHOULD america rebuild it? Im not saying they should/shouldnt, but why do you think they should? whats the reasoning? because we destroyed a threat?? how many other countries have rebuilt a country that was a threat to them after a war? how many countries has the US rebuilt after a war?

    of course america WILL rebuild...theyve rebuilt every country they've fought.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    i dont think the war was unjust.

    i have a question...why SHOULD america rebuild it? Im not saying they should/shouldnt, but why do you think they should? whats the reasoning? because we destroyed a threat?? how many other countries have rebuilt a country that was a threat to them after a war? how many countries has the US rebuilt after a war?

    of course america WILL rebuild...theyve rebuilt every country they've fought.
    I also do not think the war is unjust. It may not be popular but unjust in a legal and moral sense it is not.

    The reasoning that America should rebuild: It's not simply b/c the U.S. destroyed infrastructure during the fighting (which Iraqi forces did as well). Rather, as the most militarily powerful, economically resourceful, and politically influential nation in the world, the U.S. must set an example if it wishes to fulfill her goals. On a side note, I do believe that America should be using oil revenues (Iraqi) to aid in the new nation-building efforts. I think that is actually occuring.

    You asked "how many other countries" have rebuilt other nations that posed a threat to them. America can't afford to compare her ways to negative actions of other nations' military efforts post-hostilities. Again, as the sole superpower, she must be the one to set examples. Though portrayed very poorly in the media, the nation-building efforts of the U.S. are heading in a very positive direction. It's going to take an abundance of effort, time, and money but a free and prosperous Iraq will emerge soon.

    I just hope, for everyone's sake (especially the soldiers) that the media will soon begin to relay the postiveness that is taking place on a daily basis in Iraq. The progressivness in Iraq is profuse and the media seems to struggle keeping the good news overt. "Negative news sells"...a cliche but unfortunately true.

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    BOUNCER is offline Retired Vet
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    AIZ so why is the media not reporting all the positive aspects of this war then?.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BOUNCER
    AIZ so why is the media not reporting all the positive aspects of this war then?.

    Exactly , thats all you hear supporters say , the media's agianst it they only report the negative . . . . BS , last time I checked 5 car bombs going off 100 people dieing most of which are innocent , a few heads being chopped off , no water supplies , no jobs and a "trial" where Saddam dosn't have to show up to court because he dosn't feel like it (which by the way can all happen in 1 day!) out weighs a 'good ole american soldier ' walking an Iraqi kid across the street .

    btw , I don't think the US is building much , I turned down 2 jobs 1 in Iraq and one in Afganistan , both were 'rebuilding' jobs . The only thing to 'rebuild' was military bases relocating .
    Last edited by O.fO.shO; 12-12-2005 at 06:42 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AIZ
    This is my favorite: John Kerry 2002"I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force-if necessary- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security."

    Few months before invasion: Hans Blix 2003 , "The discovery of 122-mm chemical rocket warheads in a bunker...relatively new bunker...the discovery of a few rockets does not resolve but rather points to the issue of several thousands of chemical rockets that are unaccounted for."

    Clinton '98: "If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons-of-mass-destruction program."

    Hillary Clinton 2002: "...reports show Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock...and his nuclear program."

    Gore 2002: "Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power."

    Gore 2002: "We know that Saddam has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country."

    Robert Byrd 2002: "We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons...Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons."


    Senator Bob Graham 2001: "There is no doubt that...Saddam Hussein has invigorated his weapons program. Reports indicate that biological, chemical, and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status."


    Quote Originally Posted by AIZ
    Its not meant to make you feel better but rather point out some of the truths involved instead of focusing on all of the negativity. -

    Well , lets take a look at the truth . You saying all these people below lied too . Well , I think you would have to look at a time line here , because these are all reactions to reports from this administration , which were lies .

  14. #14
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    Most of them didnt lie!!!

    They based a rational decision on the false and fabricated evidence they were fed.

    Anybody would make involuntary decision given fabricated evidence.

    Its the illuminati that feed these incompetent assholes

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOUNCER
    AIZ so why is the media not reporting all the positive aspects of this war then?.

    This is what I do know: U.S. soldiers, some I know, are returning home with a lot of pride and asking others, "why isn't the news showing the mosques we help guard, the schools, roads, and bridges we built, and the protection we give to children going to school or even at playgrounds?" For whatever reason, the news shows roadside bombs, sniping, homicide bombs, and beheadings. It sells...the other stuff doesn't. When I say it sells, that's very important to remember since the U.S. does not have state-run television as do other nations. It's a private enterprise. Higher ratings=more profit=simple.

    In the last 2 and 1/2 years, the nation has gone from a belligerent dictator to 8 million Iraqis voting on their own free will to form a government, constitutions, and the like. There is a lot of positive events occurring and its slowly beginning to have a trickle-down (or domino) effect on the region. Don't use the mass media alone to understand the Iraqi situation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by O.fO.shO
    Well , I think you would have to look at a time line here , because these are all reactions to reports from this administration , which were lies .
    Actually, democrats don't receive their info from the Bush Administration alone. Moreover, the Clinton quotes (from '98) was during his administration...not Bush. In addition, there are countless other quotes from Democrats and Republicans about WMD in Iraq long before Bush came to power.

    This thread is not about convincing you about "truth" but rather to show you that not everyone is lying...which is the easiest to believe.

    By the way, just for information purposes: the WMD timeline quotes begin in 1997-2003 (both U.N., and U.S. reports as well as German and French concurring)

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    a politician= a fat ass liar

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by AIZ
    This is what I do know: U.S. soldiers, some I know, are returning home with a lot of pride and asking others, "why isn't the news showing the mosques we help guard, the schools, roads, and bridges we built, and the protection we give to children going to school or even at playgrounds?" For whatever reason, the news shows roadside bombs, sniping, homicide bombs, and beheadings. It sells...the other stuff doesn't. When I say it sells, that's very important to remember since the U.S. does not have state-run television as do other nations. It's a private enterprise. Higher ratings=more profit=simple.

    In the last 2 and 1/2 years, the nation has gone from a belligerent dictator to 8 million Iraqis voting on their own free will to form a government, constitutions, and the like. There is a lot of positive events occurring and its slowly beginning to have a trickle-down (or domino) effect on the region. Don't use the mass media alone to understand the Iraqi situation.
    My little brother just got back from 18 months in Iraq (with a silver and bronze star) all the fun spots, and he will tell you a far different story....

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tedbear981
    My little brother just got back from 18 months in Iraq (with a silver and bronze star) all the fun spots, and he will tell you a far different story....

    I'm glad he's back safely. I know the situation is taxing. My whole point behind this thread was to show another side. There are different perspectives, I realize that but there are other soldiers who will tell a different story than your brother.

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    Agreed but not may I've spoken to here...except some air crew...LOL

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    Quote Originally Posted by O.fO.shO
    Exactly , thats all you hear supporters say , the media's agianst it they only report the negative . . . . BS , last time I checked 5 car bombs going off 100 people dieing most of which are innocent , a few heads being chopped off , no water supplies , no jobs and a "trial" where Saddam dosn't have to show up to court because he dosn't feel like it (which by the way can all happen in 1 day!) out weighs a 'good ole american soldier ' walking an Iraqi kid across the street .

    btw , I don't think the US is building much , I turned down 2 jobs 1 in Iraq and one in Afganistan , both were 'rebuilding' jobs . The only thing to 'rebuild' was military bases relocating .
    its a shame. i wish the media would show some good going on over there. or anywhere for that matter! turn on the evening news tonight, and post what "good news" they talk about... doubt there is any. good news just doesnt sell. its sad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    its a shame. i wish the media would show some good going on over there. or anywhere for that matter! turn on the evening news tonight, and post what "good news" they talk about... doubt there is any. good news just doesnt sell. its sad.
    Exactly! Mass Media needs ratings, ratings increase as drama unfolds and profits go up. Very simple. Very sad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AIZ
    Exactly! Mass Media needs ratings, ratings increase as drama unfolds and profits go up. Very simple. Very sad.
    Corporations that own the media also own the manufacturing plants for missles... Why would NBC report anything bad? So General Electric can loose not only military contracts but the contracts to help rebuild IRAQ.

  24. #24
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    http://abcnews.go.com/International/...ory?id=1378209

    I watched this special last night on the evening news and found it interesting.
    Seems that the lives of some Iraqis are improving.
    What We Found
    This latest report is filled with surprises — and some fascinating paradoxes.
    Iraqis are far more optimistic about their individual circumstances than when we last asked these questions; seven in 10 now say their lives are going well, and two in three believe things will improve in the coming year.
    Such optimism covers nearly the entire range of living conditions — significant improvements are seen in medical care, water quality and even in terms of security. This last finding was perhaps most striking: six in 10 Iraqis now say they feel safe in their neighborhoods. The only real exceptions to this optimism in our quality-of-life metrics involve electricity and the availability of jobs.
    The bad news: First, while Iraqis are optimistic about their own future, they are actually pessimistic when it comes to the future of their nation.
    Only 44 percent of Iraqis say they believe things are going well in their country; 52 percent said they felt the country was "doing badly." Support for the U.S.-led invasion has dropped: In February 2004, 39 percent of Iraqis told us they believed the invasion was wrong, but today that number stands at 50 percent. Even among optimistic Iraqis it appears the U.S. gets little credit for any improvements in their lives. Fewer than one in five Iraqis believes that U.S. reconstruction efforts have been "effective." Most Iraqis now say they "disapprove strongly" of how the U.S. has operated in Iraq. Not surprisingly, the percentage of Iraqis today who oppose the U.S. presence has spiked — from 51 percent to 65 percent.
    However you see a very different picture among the Sunni
    Virtually all signs of optimism vanish when one is interviewing Iraq's Sunni Muslims. There's more on this in the Local Government section of the report; suffice for now to cite a pair of poll results. While 54 percent of Shia Muslims believe the country is in better shape than it was before the war, only 7 percent of Sunnis believe the same. Optimism about security — 80 percent of Shias and 94 percent of Kurds say they feel safer — is absent among Sunnis. Only 11 percent of Iraq's Sunni Muslims say they feel safer than they did under Saddam.
    Some optimistic news.
    Yet there are ample reasons for optimism: The burgeoning commerce that now touches nearly all corners of the country; an economy growing, thanks in part to the high price of oil; per-capita income up 60 percent, to $263 per month; improvements in health care and education; and the widely held belief that next week's elections will make a positive difference. Seventy-six percent of Iraqis told us they were "confident" the elections would produce a "stable government" — and despite the sectarian divisions, few Iraqis express concern about civil war.
    As far as security goes, there is one more paradox. On the one hand, the proliferation of militia in some cities and towns has unnerved people, and it may prove destabilizing in the long term. On the other, in some places we found people crediting these same guards and gunmen with having improved the safety of their communities.
    Above all, we were struck — as we have been in previous installments of this series — by the stoicism and faith of the Iraqi people. Time and again, Iraqis listed their troubles and itemized their complaints only to finish with bold expressions of hope. We met a young man in a Baghdad park named Murtada Mohammed. After telling us how poor services were in his neighborhood, how hard it was to afford goods and then how often he feels fear in his daily life, he finished this way: "Tomorrow will be better — I know it."
    Our poll suggests that there are a great many Iraqis — across the country, and from many walks of life — who are like Murtada Mohammed

  25. #25
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    Good post, Bigen

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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    its a shame. i wish the media would show some good going on over there. or anywhere for that matter! turn on the evening news tonight, and post what "good news" they talk about... doubt there is any. good news just doesnt sell. its sad.

    You hit the nail on the head with that one. Does anyone remember years back I think it was on CBS there was a show called "Good News"? It was nothing but good news from around the world for 30 minutes reporting on better things in life. The show didnt even make it through 1 season.

  27. #27
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    liberals

    Quote Originally Posted by BOUNCER
    AIZ so why is the media not reporting all the positive aspects of this war then?.
    Because the media is full of bleeding heart liberals who would have preferred John Kerry in office so that he could invite Saddam and BinLaden to the White House to discuss their problems over tea. The Democratic party has fallen into the minority pool and they do not like it and because Liberals are pussies.....

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    thanks

    Quote Originally Posted by Tedbear981
    My little brother just got back from 18 months in Iraq (with a silver and bronze star) all the fun spots, and he will tell you a far different story....
    Tell your brother thanks for his service. But I know many who have returned and said exactly that.

  29. #29
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    kool-aid

    Quote Originally Posted by Mesomorphyl
    Corporations that own the media also own the manufacturing plants for missles... Why would NBC report anything bad? So General Electric can loose not only military contracts but the contracts to help rebuild IRAQ.
    Kool-aid anyone?

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logan13
    Kool-aid anyone?
    you bastard exactly wt i need but i'm stoned and tired to go buy it.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by AIZ
    Remember, not everyone feels the war was unjust.
    But, it was (and is) unnecessary.

    Ya, lots of people died over there on both sides, and they didn't have to.
    King George the idiot and his crooked cronies (last I heard, they still haven't found that missing $7 billion over there) needlessly ruined US foreign policy. And they needlessly spent hundreds of billions of US $$$ . . .

    Ya, the intelligence foks cooked their reports so that the higher ups would be happy with 'em. Embarrassed the blazes out of Colin Powell -- they had him telling the world stuff that wasn't quite true.

    And then right before King George the Idiot pulled the trigger and started that war, he was trying to get the European nations to join his madness. Huh . . . the Germans and the French said no, they wanted the guy who was looking for WMD's (Hans Blix) to have 30 more days to look for stuff, and then they'd go along. But King George the Idiot said, "Screw y'all, we'll just go do this all on our lonesomes, and he did.

    Turns out he made a big mistake . . . all the spies were wrong about the WMD, which the war was supposedly all about. So had the Germans and the French had their way, and had Hans Blix continued with his work, well, we would have had a diplomatic solution to this mess. I wouldn't have been the sort of thing that inspired parades and gets folks praying for men in uniform and waving the flag and all that, but, it would have saved over 3000 American lives, and lots more wounded.

    IMHO, George Bush the Idiot ought to be impeached for needlessly starting a war.

    -Tock

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    michael moore?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tock
    But, it was (and is) unnecessary.

    Ya, lots of people died over there on both sides, and they didn't have to.
    King George the idiot and his crooked cronies (last I heard, they still haven't found that missing $7 billion over there) needlessly ruined US foreign policy. And they needlessly spent hundreds of billions of US $$$ . . .

    Ya, the intelligence foks cooked their reports so that the higher ups would be happy with 'em. Embarrassed the blazes out of Colin Powell -- they had him telling the world stuff that wasn't quite true.

    And then right before King George the Idiot pulled the trigger and started that war, he was trying to get the European nations to join his madness. Huh . . . the Germans and the French said no, they wanted the guy who was looking for WMD's (Hans Blix) to have 30 more days to look for stuff, and then they'd go along. But King George the Idiot said, "Screw y'all, we'll just go do this all on our lonesomes, and he did.

    Turns out he made a big mistake . . . all the spies were wrong about the WMD, which the war was supposedly all about. So had the Germans and the French had their way, and had Hans Blix continued with his work, well, we would have had a diplomatic solution to this mess. I wouldn't have been the sort of thing that inspired parades and gets folks praying for men in uniform and waving the flag and all that, but, it would have saved over 3000 American lives, and lots more wounded.

    IMHO, George Bush the Idiot ought to be impeached for needlessly starting a war.

    -Tock
    I did not like your movie, Fahrenheit 911 .

  33. #33
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    Something that gets overlooked

    The conditions Saddam agreed to at the end of the 91 Gulf War (the one where we had UN approval but Sen. John Kerry voted AGAINST) were unlimited access by UN Inspectors to wherever they wanted to go. He violated that from day one, therefore one can make the argument that the use of force was authorized by the first cease fire agreement. If you disagree take it up with President Clinton, it was one of his justifications for his bombing campaign/Operation Desert Fox...

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logan13
    I did not like your movie, Fahrenheit 911 .
    It's just plain history . . .

    Check out
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septemb...r_conspiracies

    In the aftermath of the attacks, many U.S. citizens held the view that they had "changed the world forever": that the United States was now vulnerable to terrorist attacks in a way that it had not yet experienced. The United States declared a war on terrorism, with the stated goals of bringing Osama bin Laden and Al Qaeda to justice, and preventing the emergence of other terrorist networks. These goals would be accomplished by means including economic and military sanctions against states perceived as harboring terrorists, and increasing global surveillance and intelligence sharing. The second-biggest operation outside of the United States was the invasion of Afghanistan, by U.S.-led coalitions. The U.S. was not the only nation to increase its military readiness, with other notable examples being the Philippines and Indonesia, countries that have their own internal conflicts with terrorists. The U.S. government has asserted that 9/11 is connected to the U.S. invasion of Iraq ("The battle of Iraq is one victory in a war on terror that began on September the 11, 2001..." President Bush, May 1, 2003 http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...30501-15.html). Also, the U.S. government has continued to maintain that the war on Iraq is critical to the American "War on Terrorism" ("In the war on terror, Iraq is now the central front..." President Bush, Dec. 14, 2005, http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...051214-1.html).

    Two years after the attacks, the Program on International Policy Attitudes reported on an opinion poll they conducted of the American public from January through September 2003. They asked "How likely it is that Saddam Hussein was personally involved in the September 11th Terrorist attacks?" The response was 32% very likely, 37% somewhat likely, 12% not very likely and 3% not at all likely[38]. At that time the White House maintained that such a connection did exist, however as of 2005 no evidence has emerged to support the claim.

    Within the United States, President Bush created the Department of Homeland Security, representing the largest re-structuring of the U.S. government in contemporary history. Congress passed the USA PATRIOT Act, stating that it would help detect and prosecute terrorism and other alleged future crimes. Civil liberties groups have criticized the PATRIOT Act, saying that it allows law enforcement to invade the privacy of citizens and eliminates Judicial oversight over law-enforcement and domestic intelligence gathering. The Bush Administration also invoked 9/11 as the reason to initiate a secret National Security Agency operation to monitor telecommunications of many American citizens without a court order (Washington Post January 5, 2006, http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...10400973.html).

    ------------------------
    Yah, George Bush the Idiot himself said on May 1, 2003 (and don't take my word for this, check out the White House press release at
    http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea...030501-15.html) :

    The battle of Iraq is one victory in a war on terror that began on September the 11, 2001 -- and still goes on. That terrible morning, 19 evil men -- the shock troops of a hateful ideology -- gave America and the civilized world a glimpse of their ambitions. They imagined, in the words of one terrorist, that September the 11th would be the "beginning of the end of America." By seeking to turn our cities into killing fields, terrorists and their allies believed that they could destroy this nation's resolve, and force our retreat from the world. They have failed.

    Of course, neither Saddam nor anyone in Iraq had any connection with the bombing. But, Saddam was a thorn in Bush's side, so, one thing followed another, and he started a needless war, got thousands of Americans killed, and lots more maimed and crippled for life. He should have known better . . . but then, the American people should have known better than to elect an idiot like that in the first place.

    If Bush had half a brain, he'd stick to finding Osama Bin Laden, who evidently does have a connection with this madness. But, he doesn't, and, well, the idiot started a needless war.

    No spin, mon petite . . . just history.

    -Tock

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by brewerpi
    The conditions Saddam agreed to at the end of the 91 Gulf War (the one where we had UN approval but Sen. John Kerry voted AGAINST) were unlimited access by UN Inspectors to wherever they wanted to go. He violated that from day one, therefore one can make the argument that the use of force was authorized by the first cease fire agreement. If you disagree take it up with President Clinton, it was one of his justifications for his bombing campaign/Operation Desert Fox...
    Between a choice of firm diplomacy and an ugly war, the first choice is always diplomacy. Bush was in a needless hurry to start his war, didn't want to work with the French and the Germans to do what needed to be done, and pissed off the Russians and just about every one else in the process, too.

    But then again, it's a lot more fun to watch American jets blow up Baghdad on TV than it is to watch American diplomats run ring-around-the-rosy with an Arab.

    In no way am I defending Saddam . . . he was a blight on Iraq, and they're better off without him. However, it was up to them to do something about their own leader, not the US. And I'm sure his giving lucrative oil contracts to French and Dutch oil companies instead of American oil companies factored in to his decision to blow up Iraq.

    -Tock

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tock
    But, it was (and is) unnecessary.
    IMHO, George Bush the Idiot ought to be impeached for needlessly starting a war.

    -Tock
    To say "it was" (unjust) and "unnecessary" is your opinion... "unjust" is your own idea of right and wrong, "unecessary" is simply your view: as for Bush being impeached...why would he when congress approved the action? Therefore, it was legal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AIZ
    To say "it was" (unjust) and "unnecessary" is your opinion... "unjust" is your own idea of right and wrong, "unecessary" is simply your view: as for Bush being impeached...why would he when congress approved the action? Therefore, it was legal.
    Now don't go putting words in my mouth . . . I didn't say anything about "just or unjust."
    Of course Saddam didn't need to be in charge over there, so ya, it's a good thing that he's gone. But, it wasn't really up to Americans to do anything about that situation. It's like, if you had a kid who misbehaved at home, it would be up to you to address the situation, but totally out of line for someone in New Zealand to go to your house and do it instead of you.
    Ya, it would be unnecessary for the guy in New Zealand to discipline your kid, just as it was unnecessary for the USA to take out Saddam.

    -Tock

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    First of all I don't think the issue was really if Iraq had some WMD, all the countries in that region have chemical and biological weapons..the question was-was this country a threat to the USA?, and it was clearly not, there was clearly no viable nuclear program that would produce an atomic bomb and sarin gas is just poison gas, you can make sarin gas in your garage as some Japanese cultist did and poisoned a subway..it's a dirty weapon but nothing like a nuke..and there was 0 indications that Iraq was interested in launchine a 9/11 type terrorist attack on US soil or even any other country..the most they were doing was giving some money to Palestian suicide bombers families (like Saudi Arabia was doing) but thats Israels thing, if they wanted to retailiate for that..

    2ndly the notion that the US is getting anywhere in Iraq is a joke, the Iraqi forces will never be able to control that country, they only show up for the money and many of them have a loyalty to some militia, not the puppet regime, and their payscale(400$-600$ a month) is unsustainable the US continues to get attacked about 100 times a day in Iraq and taking on the average 4 deaths a day, not to mention many, many serious injuries and this situation will not change in 5 or 10 years.. the war is costing 6 billion a month, oil production is insufficient, the US can't even afford to reconstruct the damaged cities like falluja or basic infrastructure..

    AIS-lets not forget how your were driven out of Lebanon in a similar quagmire, the US will do no better..the arabs can not be beat in this type of warfare period.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tock
    Now don't go putting words in my mouth . . . I didn't say anything about "just or unjust."
    -Tock
    Read post 31. I said "not everyone feels the war was unjust". You said, "but it was". I didn't put words in your mouth. I just wrote what you did.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eliteforce

    AIS-lets not forget how your were driven out of Lebanon in a similar quagmire, the US will do no better..the arabs can not be beat in this type of warfare period.
    You seem to understand military matters well. We weren't driven out of Lebanon militarily. Barak made a promise to the "4 mothers" and the Israeli people during his campaign that he will be "bringing the boys home".

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