Thread: Is not God's Fault
12-19-2005, 11:53 AM #1
Is not God's Fault
I've heard some people say why does God let bad things happened on earth or If he such a good powerful God how come his not stopping all this tragedy... or either Why did God let my love ones die?
I truly believe that it is not God to be blame for all the cruel things that happened on earth. It is us human whose responsible for our own action
In short, if you jump off a bridge you should not get too upset with God when you hit the bottom.. Certainly, in today's world we see this. The people who drink alcoholic beverages can expect to have problems getting their brains to function properly in old age. They are people who can expect to have problems with liver cirrhosis and things of this kind. They can expect to have difficulties that are a result of having taken this material, this poisonous intoxicant material, into their bodies. People who smoke can expect to have problems with their lungs (emphysema, lung cancer, things of this type). The person who commits adultery can expect the consequences of that--the psychological damage, and disappointment. The person who drives too fast, uses drugs, or lies--is involved in things that naturally precipitate problems for us and they fall in the category of jumping off the bridge. I believe that if we abuse ourselves, we cannot be angry with our Creator for not stepping in and helping us avoid the consequences of these things. It would be unreasonable to expect God to stop us from hitting the bottom when we jump off a bridge. And so if we persist in taking chemicals into our body, in doing things that are contradictory to what God has told us to do, we can expect to suffer. I do not believe that it is inconsistent with the nature of God for a man to expect to suffer when he tampers with nature or when he fails to heed the situations that occur when our natural situation is abused.
( This is my belief and I dont expect anyone to have the same belief as I do, everyone have their own opinion)
12-19-2005, 01:36 PM #2
You only face God and his consequences once you die, not on earth. You're only proving your worthiness here on earth.
12-19-2005, 01:58 PM #3
I agree that humans are totally responsible for action, but then I'm skeptical of god's existence. I understand your cause and effect examples, but everything is not so cut and dry. Slavery comes to mind. Here is an example of suffering in the worst way. Slavery was normal, it was considered moral, and even had the backing of the bible. But slaves suffered, right? They had no control over being born into slavery. Would you tell a slave "I truly believe that it is not God to be blame for all the cruel things that happened on earth. It is us human whose responsible for our own action" ? Keep in mind slave owners were morally good people of the day. They were religious, law abiding citizens who were simply involved in their modern day industry; unfortunatly it lead to suffering. How does that work? Are all slave owners evil? Do they all go to hell? Or are the terms good, evil and suffering all relative to social norms and living standards of the time? I could argue I'm suffering because I have to go work in a retail store at christmas time in the united states.
How about something a little more abstract. Earth is being sucked into a black hole, and giant rocks are launching towards us at hundreds of thousands of mph. Clearly this is beyond our control, but god must have made it that way if he created the universe. these are forces we have had no influence over in the least, but spell certain destruction of the earth in time. Perhaps this is just gods way of finally ending all suffering?
12-19-2005, 02:42 PM #4
well what about ppl who do not do nething dangerous or risky and still get fvcked up for no reason?
this tells me that if god did infact exist...then its evil....and having an evil thing controlling the universe is not a good idea...if it were up to me...Id kill him and take over
12-19-2005, 02:49 PM #5
provided that he exists ofcourse....
12-19-2005, 02:57 PM #6Originally Posted by IronFreakX
12-19-2005, 05:23 PM #7
12-20-2005, 04:16 AM #8
good created the psychological flaws that make some turn to alcohole, drugs and other self destructive paths, god made is so the human body is not able to survive falling down from a bridge. God created disease, god made it possible for natural disasters to occur.
Now I dont blame anything on god since I dont belive in a meddling, omnipotent god, BUT if we buy the biblical god all those things is his doing.
He could just as well have made us all mentaly stable, able to fly, and he could have created a world without disease and natural disasters. Omnipotent my ass. Either he is incompetent or cruel.
12-20-2005, 04:41 AM #9Originally Posted by johan
12-20-2005, 05:32 AM #10
this is quite an interesting thread. I aint got no views onthe whole God thing but if there is a god than poisen ivy has a very valid point.
Oh nice signature strip johan.
12-20-2005, 06:41 AM #11Originally Posted by max2extreme
Lots of spieces(sp?) got extinct from natural disasters WAY before man was even around. I dont think man sinned before the meteorite that killed the dinosaurs struck the earth? What about the constant ice age periods through out the earths history? There where floods, earthquakes, disease way before man got into the picture. Saying those things are punishment for our sins is realy raising man to a importance we have never had. Egocentric view of the universe.
No matter how you turn it it is still god that created all those nasty things if you belive in him. I dont se why african children should be born with aids. Doomed before they even had oppertunity to sin. I dont se why inocent children should die in a tsunami because the old geezer next door is jerking of to gay porn.
Punishing everyone for the sins of a few is sadistic. Its worse then boiling the skin of someone just because they stole a candybar. You wouldnt agree with such a punishment but yet you justify something far more sinister. I dont understand that
If you do something I dont approve of I dont go and slap your children or friends...
01-13-2006, 03:04 PM #12Originally Posted by johan
To assume that humans are the end all to an all powerful God that created the UNIVERSE is rather arrogant. Our petty problems right now, as important they are to each of us an individuals, are actually quite nil. On the grand scheme of things we are nothing. A blink of an eye is the entire existence of humanity.
If God has given us free will, it is his job to spectate, nothing more. Evolution is a perfectly acceptable science, and as a Creator, God did his job by getting the ball rolling. But in the truest sense of the phrase "free will", ANY kind of interference with the evolution of man would violate that. Who are we to question the randomness of the world and what the world may do to keep itself in check. Natural disasters happen, but again in the grand scheme of things, events like the Tsunami disaster a year ago are about as signfigant as stepping on an ant hill. I am NOT trying to say it was not a terrible event, many innocent people tragically lost their lives, but if you are going to put responsibility for such things on something as massive as God for events like that, you have to put them in proportion.
As for thew "biblical" God, what boulderdash. Read the bible for the overall message, it has been skewered by the minds of men who used ( and currently use) it for control, manipulation, profit, etc. The message, however, is still clear.
Here's a little quip for you. In Fermilab right here in Chicago, photographs have been taken of atoms approaching light speed. Every now and then, they are able to photograph the exact same atom at two different points at the exact same time. The science backing this is that the movement of time is dictated by gravity and due to the strength of gravity, is linear (moves in one direction). However, if one can approach the speed of light, they can literally begin to slow down compared to the speed of time of those stationary objects around them. If a being could figure out how to manipulate this action through control of gravity, time would essentially become 4 dimensional (up, down, left, right). If this being could travel along these 4 paths, it could be anywhere at anytime (Imagine moving inside of a square, as opposed to along a line). By being anywhere at anytime, this being would be capable of knowing the outcome of everything, hence "omnipotence"...theory yes, but these concepts are being studied and tested by the greatest minds in the world. How exciting is it to see religion and science mesh??
Ok my tangent is done!
Last edited by Phreak101; 01-13-2006 at 03:12 PM.
01-13-2006, 03:09 PM #13Originally Posted by Phreak101
I dont for one second belive in the biblical god and I think the idea of the whole universe beeing here just for us is extremely egocentric. If not even depressing.
But a perfectly good, omnipotent, all knowing god would not let disasters happen. Than he would be all good. So either god isnt good or the god as described in the bible doesnt exist.
01-13-2006, 03:16 PM #14Originally Posted by johan
Please continue to post Johan. I am not trying to be argumentative, but I am fascinated with this type of philosophy and enjoy spiritied debates of the like. It is also very hard to find someone who is willing to challenge their minds with such difficult topics!
Last edited by Phreak101; 01-13-2006 at 03:19 PM.
01-13-2006, 03:20 PM #15Originally Posted by Phreak101
If I was omnipotent and all knowing I would simply make my son able to ride a bike like it was a instinct he was born with. Or because Im all knowing I would find a way to teach him without him ever risking to fall down and get hurt.
01-13-2006, 03:22 PM #16Originally Posted by Phreak101
01-13-2006, 03:26 PM #17Originally Posted by johan
Just like a loving parent, the best way to graduate a young mind into the next level of thinking is to give guidelines and hints as to how to do so (a perfect example is mathematics). Everything we need to become more than we ever thought possible is most likely already in existence! We are just a young species who has a lot to learn, and what better way to appreciate it than to NOT be given the knowledge outright, but to find out for ourselves.
01-13-2006, 03:35 PM #18Originally Posted by Phreak101
I think we both agree with each other to much but Im not sure if there is a god or what I belive in. I dont se any evidence for a god so I make the assumption that he has no impact on my life until Im shown otherwise.
01-13-2006, 03:42 PM #19Originally Posted by johan
I DO believe in an omnipotent creator that has a LOT more on his plate than this small blue speck of sand we call earth. However I'm still searching for what His purpose is, as well as how He interacts with us. I have been blessed in so many ways that I refuse to believe I am not a part of his whole, but man is it frustrating trying to figure Him out!
01-13-2006, 03:44 PM #20
I can agree with that. If a god created the universe there must be alot more going on than this planet.
One just have to pic up a astronomy book to realise just how insignificantly phateticly miniscule the earth is compered to the rest of the universe.
01-15-2006, 04:09 PM #21Originally Posted by IronFreakX
Its the result of living in a sinful world (cause and affect)
Also to raise the very question of the morality of God only assumes "God exists".THe question assumes a moral law on which to judge God right or wrong. If there is a "moral law"then there is a moral law giver "God".
To raise the question "If God exists, why would he allow poverty" automatically assumes his existence. I could go far deeper into this, but I wont unless need be.
To question God proves His existence. God must exist in order to ask the question, if that makes any sense.
01-15-2006, 04:11 PM #22Originally Posted by johan
I agree johan, but I would add "Jesus only died once".
01-15-2006, 04:16 PM #23Originally Posted by IronFreakX
Your statments reqognize the existence of God.
Our tiny finite perverted mind's cannot even begin to rationalize about the infinte, I for instance dont understand infinity, I can only grasp the idea.
Last edited by boots555; 01-15-2006 at 04:20 PM.
01-15-2006, 04:17 PM #24
books plz edit that out. I wont do it because you have been here for a while and I respect you. But thats a personal attack on iron.
01-15-2006, 04:21 PM #25
sry, good call johan.
01-15-2006, 10:21 PM #26
If your reasoning is true, than, why does panter poo doo, the little invisible green man that lives on my shoulder, allow poverty. It automatically assumes that panter poo doo exists. And if he exists and he's my creater, than my creater was created by my assumption. You know what they say about those who assume. They are creaters and worship their own creations? Is that how it goes? Now I'm confused.
Originally Posted by boots555
01-15-2006, 10:27 PM #27
As an atheist, I think people create such stuff because they need a meaning and self esteem (that they have a meaningful part within this system of meaning). Need we confuse our deepest inner needs, e.g., immortality, or the denial of death, with a brute indifferent universe? Many do and I can't blame them. Whats the point of all the suffering and loss if it's all for no=thing. No thing. there is no point or meaning other than the ones we create right? Well, that's a slap in the face. Check out Terror Management Theory. Good existential stuff for the curious bodybuilder.
01-16-2006, 12:47 AM #28
See there is no debate in this and you wont see Militiaguy or Caucasian posting in this thread. I wish they would to be honest because I'm curious to see what they would think of this and not even for argument sake but to satisfy my curiousity.
01-16-2006, 02:04 AM #29Originally Posted by Mike Dura
01-18-2006, 03:11 PM #30
philosophyOriginally Posted by johan
01-18-2006, 03:20 PM #31Originally Posted by USfighterFC
GOD does NOT allow evil. Instead He forbids evil in all its forms, hidden and manifest. Evil is the absence of good. If there is evil in the world, GOD must be accomplishing a work through the agency of evil.
Evil is created through the misuse of man's faculty of free will. Man can use this power for good as well as for evil. This universe is based on natural laws that are all good. But the knowledge of these laws ie, science can be applied for mankind's benefits as well as for its destruction.
A knife can be used for peeling fruits and vegetables as well as for killing people. It has been left to man's discretion to use nuclear power for peaceful purposes or for destruction. If he wants to use this power for destruction and tyranny, he has the liberty and freedom to do so.
01-18-2006, 03:23 PM #32Originally Posted by Logan13
but philosophy isnt realy my thing to be honest.
01-18-2006, 03:30 PM #33
free willOriginally Posted by CAUSASIAN
01-19-2006, 05:39 PM #34
Well, max2extreme, that depends on what you mean by "evidence." What you might call evidence is different from what a scientist would call evidence. From the stand point of science (not to be confused with psuedoscience or Christian science) God can niether be proven or disproven. Like the little green invisible man on my shoulder named "Banter poo doo" you can niether prove or disprove his existence. These things inherently are not a problem of science because science must define it's terms (e.g., operational definitions) and the definition of God amounts to a tautology or a circular argument, e.g., God exists. How do you know? It says in the bible. How do you know what's said in the Bible is true? Because God inspired the writers. A Circular language fallacy is kind of like a dog chasing it's tail, from the standpoint of the scientific method.
So the question "existence" of God falls into the domain of theology. But even from the standpoint of theology, the whole point of faith is that we are talking about something that cannot be proven. That's why we must have faith that it (i.e., God) exists. But a major component of faith necessarily involves doubt. Without doubt there can be no faith. As the existentialis philosopher Soren Keerkegard once said, "I have to believe that it's true because it's imposible." Soren had faith.
Now, you say you don't care or are not affected by death. To that I say, many of the things that affect you are not known by you. People, in general, are terrible at explaining our own motives - research supporting this view is summarized and can be found on a social science database - punch in "Wilson (1977)" as a search term. Terror Management Theory (TMT) addresses this as well. In what follows in an explaination of the theory in brief.
Animals are born with a survival instinct. Human's unlike other organisms, have a neocortex allowing them to represent abstractions such as, time, and death. That's a bind because the organism with a survival instinct and an awareness of his ultimate doom would experience abject terror. So we need a defense mechanism to repress the salient awareness of our mortality, i.e., something that makes this awareness less salient so as to reduce the angst. Culture provides this in two ways. (1) A culturally prescribed meaning which assumes that the universe is a meaningful place - a kind of social reality that becomes "the scheme of things" as it is often confused with reality itself (e.g., live by these 10 rules, you go to heaven or in capitalism, the one who dies with the most stuff wins); It's not enough to believe in these cultural prescriptions. One must also (2) have a valued role within this valuable universe. So, for example, a person like Bill Gates who believes in the American Dream (meaning or worldview) and also is doing well at the game (value or self-esteem). So, in the case of #2, to the degree that one lives up to the cultural standard, self-esteem is elevated and Death anxiety is attenuated. This stuff can help with predictions in a laboratory. For review of that type of research, see www.ernestbeckerfoundation.com and for a documentary on this work in light of 9/11, see www.flightfromdeath.com. So there you have it. Interesting stuff don't you think?
Last edited by Mike Dura; 01-21-2006 at 12:07 PM.
01-20-2006, 01:27 PM #35Originally Posted by Phreak101
01-20-2006, 02:01 PM #36
Yes it is his fault if your dog pooh!
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