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  1. #1
    Warrior's Avatar
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    A New World (no more USA)

    This is addressed to people against the USA's military actions abroad... or think we are "terrorist" acting unfairly and too aggressive with other nations...

    What if there was no USA? Is it possibly the strongest, most influencial country in the World right now (an American passport can probably get you more places in the World than any other counrty's travel documents) - so what if there was no longer any involvement by the USA?

    Lets say nukes fell - the American super power was at the mercy of foreign invaders. They lost their stronghold. Terrorists won, basically. Or foreign Army's dismanteled our military and we had no protection or could offer no further involvement...

    What then? Would there be order in the World? Would everyone just get along?

    Times change, "empires" change - what is after the American influence if we allowed terrorist to manipulate our security and break or borders? Who would be the new major policy maker or big brother?

    IMO - this would be a scary new World...

  2. #2
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    no

    the US military doctrine is mutual destruction that comes from the cold world, the US fell, the nukes will fly accross the world.

    same NATO doctrine if the third world rise against the west, nuke to take them out

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warrior
    IMO - this would be a scary new World...
    Agreed. The problem is that many people don't understand the good balance that America gives the world. They call for America's intervention and then resent the intervention. They want America's AID but they don't want to abide by certain rules. They resent America's role as the "world's policeman" then bitch about it when America stands idle. Many people don't understand how much good the U.S. does for so many nations around the world. They only want to focus on the negative...when in fact, the positive from U.S. influence far out-weighs the negative.

  4. #4
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    That will be damn horrible! I can't imagine Japan or China as the sole superpower in the world!

    If we go back to the history, we'll find that the world was never as stable as now.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warrior
    This is addressed to people against the USA's military actions abroad... or think we are "terrorist" acting unfairly and too aggressive with other nations...

    What if there was no USA? Is it possibly the strongest, most influencial country in the World right now (an American passport can probably get you more places in the World than any other counrty's travel documents) - so what if there was no longer any involvement by the USA?

    Lets say nukes fell - the American super power was at the mercy of foreign invaders. They lost their stronghold. Terrorists won, basically. Or foreign Army's dismanteled our military and we had no protection or could offer no further involvement...

    What then? Would there be order in the World? Would everyone just get along?

    Times change, "empires" change - what is after the American influence if we allowed terrorist to manipulate our security and break or borders? Who would be the new major policy maker or big brother?

    IMO - this would be a scary new World...

    thats what the ROMANS thought too ................. there is always another great empire waiting to take the role , USA isnt the only genious society ever born , history is repetitive and so will this era move on and a new begining will arise !

  6. #6
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    I'm interested to hear Causasians view on this issue...

    Personally, I'd be perfectly content to keep our noses out of everyone elses business, and focus our resources on our own citizens. Im all for looking out for the best interests of our own people before looking out for anyone else. What I think is most interesting about American society is that a majority of the people have no grasp on politics or world issues, or really give a shit either. We are pretty much consumed with our own lives within the USA, and are pretty ignorant to any goings on outside of it. We dont realize the fragile line that our country is always sitting on, and that nothing lasts forever. I made a post similar to this recently, citing the fall of Rome as one of the biggest indictators that the USA's reign will not be eternal.

    There are really only a few instances when I think we should risk our own peoples lives in order to help anyone else. Most noteably is genocide. I know at one point we vowed to never let it happen again, however we have let it go on in Rawanda since the 1990s, and have yet to interevene. It's sad because they are slaughtering people over there, but they offer no return on an investment to help them, they're not an industrialized nation, and they dont have oil, so basically they're ****ed.

    When, not IF, the USA falls, I forsee at LEAST a few hundred years of absolute chaos. All the third world nations looking to achieve their personal agendas will jump at the opportunity of the USA falling. If China is still in tact, Im sure they will be the first one to start making major moves. Honestly, if the USA does fall while Im still alive, or any of my children, I pray to god that they launch their entire nuclear arsenal and end the world, because a world run by China or a 3rd world nation, is a world Id rather see covered in a clowd of nuclear waste for 3 years straight.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by thegodfather
    I'm interested to hear Causasians view on this issue...

    Personally, I'd be perfectly content to keep our noses out of everyone elses business, and focus our resources on our own citizens. Im all for looking out for the best interests of our own people before looking out for anyone else. What I think is most interesting about American society is that a majority of the people have no grasp on politics or world issues, or really give a shit either. We are pretty much consumed with our own lives within the USA, and are pretty ignorant to any goings on outside of it. We dont realize the fragile line that our country is always sitting on, and that nothing lasts forever. I made a post similar to this recently, citing the fall of Rome as one of the biggest indictators that the USA's reign will not be eternal.

    There are really only a few instances when I think we should risk our own peoples lives in order to help anyone else. Most noteably is genocide. I know at one point we vowed to never let it happen again, however we have let it go on in Rawanda since the 1990s, and have yet to interevene. It's sad because they are slaughtering people over there, but they offer no return on an investment to help them, they're not an industrialized nation, and they dont have oil, so basically they're ****ed.

    When, not IF, the USA falls, I forsee at LEAST a few hundred years of absolute chaos. All the third world nations looking to achieve their personal agendas will jump at the opportunity of the USA falling. If China is still in tact, Im sure they will be the first one to start making major moves. Honestly, if the USA does fall while Im still alive, or any of my children, I pray to god that they launch their entire nuclear arsenal and end the world, because a world run by China or a 3rd world nation, is a world Id rather see covered in a clowd of nuclear waste for 3 years straight.
    I think there are a lot of people that would rather stay in the US and ignore World issues... especially soldiers pulled off some 9to5, 5 day work week to go risk their life 24 hours a day and 7 days a week. But if we kept to ourselves - I think the nucleur genocides would begin a lot sooner than we'd like it. It would be interested to see what countries began conquering others and how stable they could keep themselves (like if Saddam was allowed to take Kuwait)... but the overall safety issues are poor at best... there are some crazy SOB's lirking out there waiting for more money and power - Saddam was only one of many...

  8. #8
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    well, if that happened.. and i survived the 1st and 2nd wave.. we would be on my wife's family farm..

    us and 4 other families.. the house is protected, with outbuildings, with fields and a long road...easily defended..

    long distance shooting with 300 weatherby mag rifles

    and claymore mines up close..

    if we run out of food... we'll take your's.. just the way it is..
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by spywizard
    well, if that happened.. and i survived the 1st and 2nd wave.. we would be on my wife's family farm..

    us and 4 other families.. the house is protected, with outbuildings, with fields and a long road...easily defended..

    long distance shooting with 300 weatherby mag rifles

    and claymore mines up close..

    if we run out of food... we'll take your's.. just the way it is..
    dont know how much you would be farming with a cloud of dust covering the earth for 2-3 years after 6,000 nukes touched down... So assuming you could survive all the blasts and the incredible amount of fallout, unless you stored enough dry grain for 2-3 years to sustain yourself, you'd most surely die of starvation...But the lucky ones will be vaporized instantly and never know what hit them.

  10. #10
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    And who is the only one to ever use nukes to kill civilians......
    and who contributed the greatest to an arms race........
    and who destabilized Russia to give US nuke security issues......

  11. #11
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    First we were paranoid about the communists.......now we are scared of Islam
    US hates the oppressed.....people with nothing have nothing to lose......
    therefore the US can not control these people.......they have no house to lose.....no DirectTV....no fancy cars........no airplane......
    No possessions=no control
    That's why a capitalist is so fearful of people who have no regard for money.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badgerman
    And who is the only one to ever use nukes to kill civilians......
    and who contributed the greatest to an arms race........
    and who destabilized Russia to give US nuke security issues......
    I'm not aware of any nuclear devices that selectively kill soldiers, and avoid civilians, are you? Civilians are killed in war, thats a price of war, it doesn't matter by what means (i.e.-stray bullets,bombs,etc.).

    We just so happend to be the first ones to develop our nuclear technology and use it, if we hadn't done it, someone else would have.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badgerman
    First we were paranoid about the communists.......now we are scared of Islam
    US hates the oppressed.....people with nothing have nothing to lose......
    therefore the US can not control these people.......they have no house to lose.....no DirectTV....no fancy cars........no airplane......
    No possessions=no control
    That's why a capitalist is so fearful of people who have no regard for money.
    Dude - are you saying Islamic followers have no money? In the Middle East, they might walk around in a thobe - but they got satelite TV, entire Airlines (extrememly successful airlines), huge homes, a sh!t load of Land Cruisers and mobile toys... examples: Osama and Saddam come from really wealthy families...

  14. #14
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    i do think that if the US fell, a huge chaos will occur all over the world, specially in the middle east region. the existance of the US in the middle east is like the safety valve.
    plus lots of countries will suffer real sharp economical decline since they depend on the US AID to balance their national economy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Badgerman
    First we were paranoid about the communists.......now we are scared of Islam
    US hates the oppressed.....people with nothing have nothing to lose......
    therefore the US can not control these people.......they have no house to lose.....no DirectTV....no fancy cars........no airplane......
    No possessions=no control
    That's why a capitalist is so fearful of people who have no regard for money.
    are u talking about the middle east (muslim) ppl?!!
    u r way off bro. these ppl got enough money to raise a whole new country out of nothing.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warrior
    Dude - are you saying Islamic followers have no money? In the Middle East, they might walk around in a thobe - but they got satelite TV, entire Airlines (extrememly successful airlines), huge homes, a sh!t load of Land Cruisers and mobile toys... examples: Osama and Saddam come from really wealthy families...
    very true.
    the Saudi Royal Family sits on Trillions of $'s

  17. #17
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    at my school i've been seeing some students giving hand outs about some one called La Rouche, and they were saying something like this:
    the NWO's are pushing for a 3rd world war to break down in the middle east where Jesus is going to come back and......etc and then Chrisitans will go to heaven.
    i've been hearing these students talking alot about that, does anyone know wt's up with that?

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warrior
    Dude - are you saying Islamic followers have no money? In the Middle East, they might walk around in a thobe - but they got satelite TV, entire Airlines (extrememly successful airlines), huge homes, a sh!t load of Land Cruisers and mobile toys... examples: Osama and Saddam come from really wealthy families...
    There are some wealthy......just like here......most don't have a pot to pea in in say the North African segment......there's more to Islam than the Saudi Royals......the people hate those clowns.......

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badgerman
    There are some wealthy......just like here......most don't have a pot to pea in in say the North African segment......there's more to Islam than the Saudi Royals......the people hate those clowns.......
    i never seen a person who likes his 'ruler'.

  20. #20
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    Interesting question... because if you think about it the USA is the new kid on the block. I'd have to guess that 90% of the other countries have been around longer than the USA, so how did they get along before we showed up... and more importantly how would they get along after we are gone considering the impact our technology has had on the world and it's cultures?

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badgerman
    First we were paranoid about the communists.......now we are scared of Islam
    US hates the oppressed.....people with nothing have nothing to lose......
    therefore the US can not control these people.......they have no house to lose.....no DirectTV....no fancy cars........no airplane......
    No possessions=no control
    That's why a capitalist is so fearful of people who have no regard for money.
    I believe we're fearful of radical fanatics who believe that by killing thousands of people they will be greated in heaven with open arms and become a martyr. Twisted idealogical bullshit like that is the reason we're scared. Life is cheap to those people, its evident with their 'honor' killings. Those people are absolute ****ing cowards and use what Id like to think is a very pure religion to hide behind and justify killing thousands of innocent lives. The perfect situation for me would be, we Americans keep our noses in our business, live our lives, and all the fanatics in the middle east, do what you want, murder your daughters for spreadin their legs, kill people for being blasphemists, and I personally dont give a flying ****, as long as you stop blowing shit up in my country. I dont piss in your cornflakes, so you dont piss in mine. Now isn't that such a simple solution? If only the world was that simple. And I speculate that even if we withdrew all our forces from the middle east and kept to ourselves, some group of radicals over there would still find a reason to blow people up over here, in the name of Allah...

  22. #22
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    forget about crazy nuke scenarios..if America continues it's fanatical policy of occupying iraq and militarism-she will go bankrupt and then the American economy will fail when millions of workers are thrown off there defense industry/military jobs and the economy goes into a downward spiral..then the central government in WDC will be resented and useless to the point of political collapse..then states will start doing there own thing and the USA will be gone like the Soviet Union becoming the irrelivant "CIS"

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by jajabinks
    forget about crazy nuke scenarios..if America continues it's fanatical policy of occupying iraq and militarism-she will go bankrupt and then the American economy will fail when millions of workers are thrown off there defense industry/military jobs and the economy goes into a downward spiral..then the central government in WDC will be resented and useless to the point of political collapse..then states will start doing there own thing and the USA will be gone like the Soviet Union becoming the irrelivant "CIS"
    You hit the nail on the head.......
    The biggest fear of our government is a rebellion of the working class......
    when the 30-50 year old males tell the government to take a hike......
    no one to fuel ol' Georges 747.......

  24. #24
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    confused

    Quote Originally Posted by Badgerman
    You hit the nail on the head.......
    The biggest fear of our government is a rebellion of the working class......
    when the 30-50 year old males tell the government to take a hike......
    no one to fuel ol' Georges 747.......
    You both underestimate this country. This economy is strong, especially when you consider the war, natural disasters, and the damn terrorists. Hell, if we ever got that desperate we could just keep the damn money that we throw at the world to solve their woes and invest it here at home. 70% of the 30-50 year old males in this country are traditional conservatives...you have this group confused with the left wing kooks that want nothing more than the overthrow of this country and the moral authority to do whatever they damn well please. God love America baby!

  25. #25
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    The US wont fall all of a sudden in a day, it will be gradual. It will be like Britian of today, who were the world superpower, but is now a major player, but not a superpower.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thegodfather
    When, not IF, the USA falls, I forsee at LEAST a few hundred years of absolute chaos. All the third world nations looking to achieve their personal agendas will jump at the opportunity of the USA falling. If China is still in tact, Im sure they will be the first one to start making major moves. Honestly, if the USA does fall while Im still alive, or any of my children, I pray to god that they launch their entire nuclear arsenal and end the world, because a world run by China or a 3rd world nation, is a world Id rather see covered in a clowd of nuclear waste for 3 years straight.
    OMG, and you got sick when I said one person should have been killed. But you are willing to kill the whole world if the US falls.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logan13
    You both underestimate this country. This economy is strong, especially when you consider the war, natural disasters, and the damn terrorists. Hell, if we ever got that desperate we could just keep the damn money that we throw at the world to solve their woes and invest it here at home. 70% of the 30-50 year old males in this country are traditional conservatives...you have this group confused with the left wing kooks that want nothing more than the overthrow of this country and the moral authority to do whatever they damn well please. God love America baby!
    You obviously have no idea what you are talking about.......
    the anti-government gun toters are very much RIGHT wing......
    and hate to see the fiscal disaster the supposed conservative Bush has created.......

    Disaster STRENGTHENS the economy by stimulating jobs.......assuming the dollars aren't siphoned by the greedy.
    Fraud by companies such as Halliburton suck the life out of the American taxpayer

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by CAUSASIAN
    OMG, and you got sick when I said one person should have been killed. But you are willing to kill the whole world if the US falls.
    Lol knew Id get a rise out of you with that one...Nah man, if the USA falls I have no problem with it, so long as there is another free nation to take its place. What I meant was that I wouldnt want to live in a world run by China or a 3rd world nation..

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Badgerman
    There are some wealthy......just like here......most don't have a pot to pea in in say the North African segment......there's more to Islam than the Saudi Royals......the people hate those clowns.......
    Yeah - I understand that there are followers of Islam all over the World. But the poorer coutries don't really wage Wars or fund terrorism - they have no assets to back it up. For instance, the Arabic Muslim people in Northern Africa are more interested in expating themselves to find work than overthrowing governements. Look how many get killed trying to cross over to Europe via Spain - the Strait of Gibraltar.

    But the poor Muslims can get easily suckered into milita groups by offering them money and a generally richer lifestyle in the name of Allah (recruiting a desperate man in a mosk is not unheard of)... at first to run a few documents, then they find themselves behind a rifle. But desperate people act the same - regardless of race or religion...

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    the IMF has stated that the american economy is strong but dependant on 'unprecidented' borrowing from foreign sources..most of the foreign aid money the US govt sends abroad actually goes to US companies via ngo's-they provide american product/services to thses countries, and the govt is lobbied by these interests..the money the US govt borrows is used to fund the military & defense contractors-it's very labor intensive..coming off this system is difficult.

    Quote Originally Posted by Logan13
    You both underestimate this country. This economy is strong, especially when you consider the war, natural disasters, and the damn terrorists. Hell, if we ever got that desperate we could just keep the damn money that we throw at the world to solve their woes and invest it here at home. 70% of the 30-50 year old males in this country are traditional conservatives...you have this group confused with the left wing kooks that want nothing more than the overthrow of this country and the moral authority to do whatever they damn well please. God love America baby!

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    Quote Originally Posted by AIZ
    They call for America's intervention and then resent the intervention. They want America's AID but they don't want to abide by certain rules. They resent America's role as the "world's policeman" then bitch about it when America stands idle.
    I think your wrong. I think people resent it that America picks its war's to suits its own needs, and largely thats understandable.

    But if I can use the former Yugoslavia as an example of America standing by when it should have intervened at a very early stage.

    America spents BILLIONS of dollars on its military in central Europe with the justification that it was going to fight WWIII in the Rhine. It had the resourses on Yugoslavia's door step to totally annililate that country but sat by and let it rip itself apart, because it didn't suit America's needs. Shamefull.

    If it wants to be the worlds policeman, so be it. But don't sit around eating donuts when your 'on call'.

    But I'll also give credit where its due. Somalia!. I credit America and the UN with bringing famine there to an end. Its just a pity you had a president and a country which hadn't the belly for a good fight to really turn that country around.

  32. #32
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    The problem is the American military is only so big - if you keep spreading yourself thin by going abroad... it leaves you too vulnerable at home. Being a World's 911 force "on call" has to be kept within reason...

    There a re A LOT of reservists going to Iraq and various commands in the AOR. American forces can be on call - but ioften they need to be regrouping back home. The sh!t costs money... and I don't understand where we are gettnig it from...

    It would be nice if NATO and the American forces could better integrate/consolidate their troops, equipment and manpower - but there are simply too many language, cultural and political barriers... and too many politicians to please...

    The state the World is in now will eventually come to an end... hopefully all the people in the World could hold it together... but technology is a double-edged sword. The faster it develops the more uncertain our futures become. Like the possibilities molecular nanotechnology could introduce - were basic laws of physics becomes the only barrier to what could be created....

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    Warrior, honest do you think America needs to bring in the draft to win the war in Iraq?.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOUNCER
    Warrior, honest do you think America needs to bring in the draft to win the war in Iraq?.
    The War in Iraq will not be won by Americans or the British allies. It will have to be won by the Iraqis. They need to be drafted to take back control of their streets and get rid of the thugs that have been kicking them around for years on end... and the thugs that have shown up just to get some saddistic trigger time. But we also can not just dismantal their government and leave... we have to make sure the country is given back to a sane democracy (and one that is cooperative)... and make sure the same thing doesn't happen as did before - we left and they started killing all the American loyalist...

    And its my opinion that the heavy use of reservist in Iraq has more than doubled our combat-ready military. Reservist used to be guys, "just wanting some money for college," but today - I doubt any of them believe a recruiter that says, "you'll never go to War in the reserves!". Reservist are playing a huge part today - and now we have a huge reserve component that is combat experienced - a much diffferent situation prior to all this. Add that to our experienced active duty and we are still good to go. If someone else, like North Korea or China want to play ball - well, then its probably heading that direction. I remember several years back, a lot of analyst were predicting problems with those two countries because of overlapping stressors that make them desperate enough for war... as well as the known nukes and espionage...

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by ripped4fsu
    Interesting question... because if you think about it the USA is the new kid on the block. I'd have to guess that 90% of the other countries have been around longer than the USA, so how did they get along before we showed up... and more importantly how would they get along after we are gone considering the impact our technology has had on the world and it's cultures?
    just as much technology that has been developed outside of the usa as in the usa. So loosing the us would hurt us about as much as losing europe would hurt you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thegodfather
    When, not IF, the USA falls, I forsee at LEAST a few hundred years of absolute chaos. All the third world nations looking to achieve their personal agendas will jump at the opportunity of the USA falling. If China is still in tact, Im sure they will be the first one to start making major moves. Honestly, if the USA does fall while Im still alive, or any of my children, I pray to god that they launch their entire nuclear arsenal and end the world, because a world run by China or a 3rd world nation, is a world Id rather see covered in a clowd of nuclear waste for 3 years straight.
    a few hundrad years??? Just look back 200 years and you will se that the world is incredibly adaptable.

    Sooner or later chinas people will demand a change to the way that country is run so I dont think a world run by china would be horrible. Maby for a while but not for ever.

    Not quite sure what you mean with run though. Its not like china has any resonable chanse to defeate both russia and europe by any stretch of imagination and if they just pic of some poor asian countries they wont run anything but its neighboors.

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    I dont think any big nation in the world today is crazy enough to start a major war. No matter if the usa is here or not.
    There is just no point in conquest today, not when the existance of a country can be erased by the push of a few buttons.

    I dont think the world will ever se a traditional war like ww1 or ww2 again.
    If it ever escalates into a conflict betwen the major players the war will be over within a few days.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johan
    I dont think any big nation in the world today is crazy enough to start a major war. No matter if the usa is here or not.
    There is just no point in conquest today, not when the existance of a country can be erased by the push of a few buttons.

    I dont think the world will ever se a traditional war like ww1 or ww2 again.
    If it ever escalates into a conflict betwen the major players the war will be over within a few days.
    Thats why mutually assured destruction works. However, with rogue nations that dont care if their population lives or dies, this method isn't as much of a sure thing. If you have a nation of fanatics crazy enough to push the button and not care, well then I think it comes down to the responsibility of the nation being fired on, to determine wether or not to shoot back. I have heard about new systems being developed by the USA which would be capable to shoot ICBMs out of the sky, however Im sure that wont be ready for years and who knows if itll be effective. I think my biggest concern would be a terrorist smuggling a small nuclear device into one of our cities, and then detonating it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thegodfather
    Thats why mutually assured destruction works. However, with rogue nations that dont care if their population lives or dies, this method isn't as much of a sure thing. If you have a nation of fanatics crazy enough to push the button and not care, well then I think it comes down to the responsibility of the nation being fired on, to determine wether or not to shoot back. I have heard about new systems being developed by the USA which would be capable to shoot ICBMs out of the sky, however Im sure that wont be ready for years and who knows if itll be effective. I think my biggest concern would be a terrorist smuggling a small nuclear device into one of our cities, and then detonating it.
    Or internal espionage - spys... like written in the Art of War, the US will fall not by storming her beaches - but from gettin' in from the inside out...

    Chinease have been probing us for a long time (all theway into the CIA!)... now they have one of the fastest growing economies in the World - and have yet to float their currency. Isn't it funny how you rarely chat with a China man on these boards? And the only expat Chinease people I have seen in the Gulf area are flippin' hookers... I just don't trust 'em... not racist, just careful...

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    BOUNCER is offline Retired Vet
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    ok Warrior, I'll rephrase that. Can American win the battle in Iraq and withdraw with honour?. If you pulled out now (and I think you shouldn't) do you think it would be seen as another defeat?.

    Does the American public have the stomach for a war with higher casualties, or the draft?.

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