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  1. #1
    Prada's Avatar
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    Abortion, suicide, assisted suicide, capital punishment.

    Is murder ever justifiable? From a moral standpoint.
    Lets all refer to the sixth commandment THOU SHALT NOT KILL.
    Personaly Im really against capital punishment, its murder IMO. I dont believe its our jurisdiction to judge who is worthy of life and not. In no sense am I religious but I have high morals.

    Where I am really philosophical and undecided is assisted suicide and abortion. Its just that there is the religious, humanity, legal,moral,medical stand point. If no one but god can take your life, then suicide assisted or not,abortion, capital punishment would be breaking religious law

  2. #2
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    Even people who love G-d are willing to take the chance and break his law. If a woman, who believes deeply in G-d, was raped and became pregnant, and decides she cannot deliever this baby...she has that right. It is now between her and G-d (if that's what she believes).

    If a man and believer in G-d is terminally ill, suffering to the likes that none of us could understand, and chooses not to go on in his present state...it is then between him and G-d

    I'd like to believe that G-d will forgive no matter what.

  3. #3
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    It is using your freedom to take away your freedom. This is not good.

    Aquinas:

    I answer that, It is altogether unlawful to kill oneself, for three reasons. First, because everything naturally loves itself, the result being that everything naturally keeps itself in being, and resists corruptions so far as it can. Wherefore suicide is contrary to the inclination of nature, and to charity whereby every man should love himself. Hence suicide is always a mortal sin, as being contrary to the natural law and to charity. Secondly, because every part, as such, belongs to the whole. Now every man is part of the community, and so, as such, he belongs to the community. Hence by killing himself he injures the community, as the Philosopher declares (Ethic. v, 11). Thirdly, because life is God's gift to man, and is subject to His power, Who kills and makes to live. Hence whoever takes his own life, sins against God, even as he who kills another's slave, sins against that slave's master, and as he who usurps to himself judgment of a matter not entrusted to him. For it belongs to God alone to pronounce sentence of death and life, according to Dt. 32:39, "I will kill and I will make to live."


    From the start, the callers were antagonistic. I could feel the tension as soon as the lines lit up. One angry woman caller said, "All you people have is an agenda you're trying to promote." Referring to abortion, she said, "You want to take away our rights and invade our private lives."

    Abortion had not even been brought up.

    "Just a minute," I replied. "We didn't even raise the subject."

    I said, "Can I ask you a question? On every university campus I visit, somebody stands up and says that God is an evil God to allow all this evil into our world. This person typically says, 'A plane crashes: Thirty people die, and twenty people live. What kind of a God would arbitrarily choose some to live and some to die?'"

    I continued, "but when we play God and determine whether a child within a mother's womb should live, we argue for that as a moral right. So when human beings are given the privilege of playing God, it's called a moral right. When God plays God, we call it an immoral act. Can you justify this for me?"

    That was the end of the conversation.

    If a pilot incorrectly sets her indicators before she takes off, then the higher she climbs, the more inaccurate her gauges will read. The problem is not where the gauges are but where they started from.

    http://www.rzim.org/publications/essay_arttext.php?id=9

  4. #4
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    Murder is justified in certain instance's, one example is "self defense"


    I am going to protect myself and my family with what ever means necessary if there life or my life is in danger.

    Luke 22:36

    He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one."

    In Luke 22:36, Jesus seemed to be advising the disciples to use self-defense when necessary, but nothing more. He didn't advocate violence as a way of doing things, for he said that two swords are enough for the eleven disciples.

    http://www.rationalchristianity.net/jesus_pacifist.html

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by boots555
    Murder is justified in certain instance's, one example is "self defense"


    I am going to protect myself and my family with what ever means necessary if there life or my life is in danger.

    Luke 22:36

    He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one."

    In Luke 22:36, Jesus seemed to be advising the disciples to use self-defense when necessary, but nothing more. He didn't advocate violence as a way of doing things, for he said that two swords are enough for the eleven disciples.

    http://www.rationalchristianity.net/jesus_pacifist.html
    does a threat have to be immediate and tangible for a murder to warrant the label self defense?

  6. #6
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    !!!!!!!!

    Lets Break It Down And Make It Simple For You.

    1. Capital Punishment: Your Not In Favor, Maybe Your View Would Change If It Were Your Six Year Old Daughter That Was Raped And Tourtured Screaming For Help And There Was None, Begging For Mercy And None Granted. Or Your Wife Or Sister That Had Been Gun Down For The $ 23.75 They Had In There Purse And Your Life Has Been Flipped Over Never To Have Another Christmas, Bitrhday Etc. With Them Because Of Some Low Life Pc. Of Crap Crying That He Wasn't Loved Enough. If I Sound Hard About This Subject It's Because I Watch Them Ever Day And All Thow It Will Mean Nothing To You These Parasites You Mistake For Humanbeings May Hate Me But Dispise You And Those Like You For Your Misplaced Compassions. Sometimes Dead Is Better !!

    2. Abortion: Wronge Evertime....! And I Can Hear You Now Calling Me A Hypocrite Because Of My Earlier Statment About Capital Punishment. But The Bible Tells Us That He Knew Us Before We Were Ever Conceved. Of Course Everyone Has The Rite To Make There Own Call But If I Were Them I Sure Would'nt Want To Be Wronge.

    3. Assit Suicide: What Can One Say, Everyone Has The Rite To Condemn Themselves To Hell In Their Own Fashion. As Far As A Human Legal Stand Point I Feel A Person Should Have The Rite. I Also Believe As A Christian That It Is Morally Wronge. But I Think It Is A Problem We Face Today, We Try To Make People Do The Rite Thing When All In All As Far As Religion Goes It's About Choice.

  7. #7
    boots555's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeerBaron
    does a threat have to be immediate and tangible for a murder to warrant the label self defense?
    Yeah I would think so, all other options should be exhausted.


    If I had a choice between my life or the man holding a gun to my head, the gun man is going first.


    If a person premeditatly hurts a close family member I care about, they will have to answere to "grumpy" 4 knuckles, with a curled thumb.

  8. #8
    BeerBaron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by boots555

    If a person premeditatly hurts a close family member I care about, they will have to answere to "grumpy" 4 knuckles, with a curled thumb.
    But wouldn't they then have the right to kill you in self defense?

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeerBaron
    But wouldn't they then have the right to kill you in self defense?

    Your claim is true except the gunman would be the causal agent for situation at hand. The gunman had premeditated his action, whereas my action was merely the effect or response to his action.

  10. #10
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    What if someone killed your sister, and you later killed him? Justified? Might as well throw in where you stand on the death penalty too because that ties into this question.

  11. #11
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    THese are hard questions to deal with because of the feelings and emotions that are tied to these issues.

  12. #12
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    According to Islamic law, the following two crimes can be punishable by death:


    - Intentional murder

    - Fasad fil-ardh ("spreading mischief in the land")

    Intentional Murder

    The Qur'an legislates the death penalty for murder, although forgiveness and compassion are strongly encouraged. The murder victim's family is given a choice to either insist on the death penalty, or to pardon the perpetrator and accept monetary compensation for their loss (2:178).


    Fasaad fi al-ardh

    The second crime for which capital punishment can be applied is a bit more open to interpretation. "Spreading mischief in the land" can mean many different things, but is generally interpreted to mean those crimes that affect the community as a whole, and destabilize the society. Crimes that have fallen under this description have included:

    Treason / Apostacy

    Terrorism

    Land, sea, or air piracy

    Rape

    Adultery

    Homosexual behavior

    Actual methods of capital punishment vary from place to place. In some Muslim countries, methods have included beheading, hanging, stoning, and firing squad. Executions are held publicly, to serve as warnings to would-be criminals.

    It is important to note that there is no place for vigilantism in Islam -- one must be properly convicted in an Islamic court of law before the punishment can be meted out. The severity of the punishment requires that very strict evidence standards must be met before a conviction is found. The court also has flexibility to order less than the ultimate punishment (for example, imposing fines or prison sentences), on a case-by-case basis.

  13. #13
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    This is what they do to rapists in Chechnya -

    http://www.youtube.com/w/chechnya?v=...earch=chechnya

    There must be evidence and 4 witnesses. Then the family members of the rape victims get the oppurtunity to shoot the rapists. It might seem severe, but these type of strict punishments curbs crime tremendously. And hands out justice.

  14. #14
    CAUSASIAN's Avatar
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    "...If anyone kills a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he killed all people. And if anyone saves a life, it would be as if he saved the life of all people" (Qur'an 5:32).

  15. #15
    Prada's Avatar
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    Astonishing so in Islam this Fasaad fi al-ardh or
    Treason / Apostacy
    Terrorism
    Land, sea, or air piracy
    Rape
    Adultery
    Homosexual behavior
    these seem a little farfetched or barbaric to terminate someone due to this. What is homosexual behaviour? What is Land, sea, or air piracy. Then what is terrorism doing, it seems accepted and justified?
    Wouldnt it be time for some modernization? How many muslims are gay, practice adultery unremorsefully, is the epicentre of terrorism and treason well what about treason, which is worse treason or corruption? The fact is that it is rampant.

  16. #16
    CAUSASIAN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prada
    Astonishing so in Islam this Fasaad fi al-ardh or
    Treason / Apostacy
    Terrorism
    Land, sea, or air piracy
    Rape
    Adultery
    Homosexual behavior
    these seem a little farfetched or barbaric to terminate someone due to this. What is homosexual behaviour? What is Land, sea, or air piracy. Then what is terrorism doing, it seems accepted and justified?
    Wouldnt it be time for some modernization? How many muslims are gay, practice adultery unremorsefully, is the epicentre of terrorism and treason well what about treason, which is worse treason or corruption? The fact is that it is rampant.
    Fasaad fi al-ardh means spreading mischief in the land. What sucks is that people can interpert these words "spreading mischief in the land", anyway they want.

  17. #17
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    I belive piracy is pirates, because they cause "mischeif or anarchy". Like terrorism.

  18. #18
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    ON assisted suicide. You said it yourself in your first sentence "In no sense am I religious but I have high morals"
    Then in your last sentence you mention breaking "religious law" are you undecided which way you bounce?
    In my view if you have your faculties and there is no possible hope/cure for your predicament then by all means I say let a life be ended.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prada
    Is murder ever justifiable? From a moral standpoint.
    Lets all refer to the sixth commandment THOU SHALT NOT KILL.
    Personaly Im really against capital punishment, its murder IMO. I dont believe its our jurisdiction to judge who is worthy of life and not. In no sense am I religious but I have high morals.

    Where I am really philosophical and undecided is assisted suicide and abortion. Its just that there is the religious, humanity, legal,moral,medical stand point. If no one but god can take your life, then suicide assisted or not,abortion, capital punishment would be breaking religious law
    murder... the taking of life with hatred in your heart..

    thou shalt not kill.. and with the sacrifice of the Son all sin is forgiven.

    and the "Law" is set aside..

    thus the 10 Commandments that is written in the old testiment is set aside
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by CAUSASIAN
    According to Islamic law, the following two crimes can be punishable by death:


    - Intentional murder

    - Fasad fil-ardh ("spreading mischief in the land")

    Intentional Murder

    The Qur'an legislates the death penalty for murder, although forgiveness and compassion are strongly encouraged. The murder victim's family is given a choice to either insist on the death penalty, or to pardon the perpetrator and accept monetary compensation for their loss (2:178).


    Fasaad fi al-ardh

    The second crime for which capital punishment can be applied is a bit more open to interpretation. "Spreading mischief in the land" can mean many different things, but is generally interpreted to mean those crimes that affect the community as a whole, and destabilize the society. Crimes that have fallen under this description have included:

    Treason / Apostacy

    Terrorism

    Land, sea, or air piracy

    Rape

    Adultery

    Homosexual behavior

    Actual methods of capital punishment vary from place to place. In some Muslim countries, methods have included beheading, hanging, stoning, and firing squad. Executions are held publicly, to serve as warnings to would-be criminals.

    It is important to note that there is no place for vigilantism in Islam -- one must be properly convicted in an Islamic court of law before the punishment can be meted out. The severity of the punishment requires that very strict evidence standards must be met before a conviction is found. The court also has flexibility to order less than the ultimate punishment (for example, imposing fines or prison sentences), on a case-by-case basis.

    what happened to the command to kill the infidel??
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  21. #21
    boots555's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman
    ON assisted suicide. You said it yourself in your first sentence "In no sense am I religious but I have high morals"
    Then in your last sentence you mention breaking "religious law" are you undecided which way you bounce?
    In my view if you have your faculties and there is no possible hope/cure for your predicament then by all means I say let a life be ended.


    Can you see into the future,

  22. #22
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    What if a cure is found, what if that life still has purpose (remember cause and effect). "My ways are not your ways, says the Lord".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman
    ON assisted suicide. You said it yourself in your first sentence "In no sense am I religious but I have high morals"
    Then in your last sentence you mention breaking "religious law" are you undecided which way you bounce?
    In my view if you have your faculties and there is no possible hope/cure for your predicament then by all means I say let a life be ended.

    You are misled, God does not need your help.

  24. #24
    CAUSASIAN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spywizard
    what happened to the command to kill the infidel??
    That doesnt exist in Islam, contrary to what bigots might have told you.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by boots555
    You are misled, God does not need your help.
    \

    So it took you 3 posts to say all that did it?
    Well to put it bluntly **** your god and **** you.You close minded little cvnt.

  26. #26
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    Sorry Hideous, your a cvnt, if that is a word. Ill try not to break the rules next time, if I do, I will find my black bed sheet, we must keep secrecy.

  27. #27
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    Arn't you also close minded, remember you are close minded of my view.


    It took me three posts to piss you off, lets try two this time.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by boots555
    Ill try not to break the rules next time, if I do, I will find my black bed sheet, we must keep secrecy.

  29. #29
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    Is the name calling really necessary Hitman?

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by CAUSASIAN
    That doesnt exist in Islam, contrary to what bigots might have told you.
    actually that information was confirmed by one of you members on this site..
    '

    hmm

    and it was stated as the truth from translations from the original text.. not the one that is published today..

    dang it.. now i have to go find it..
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  31. #31
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    The answer to your every question

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    A bigot is a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted
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    If you get scammed by an UGL listed on this board or by another member here, it's all part of the game and learning experience for you,
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    Why the Police will Kick your ass

  32. #32
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    this one was interesting

    When the sacred months have passed away, THEN SLAY THE IDOLATERS WHEREVER YOU FIND THEM, AND TAKE THEM CAPTIVES AND BESIEGE THEM AND LIE IN WAIT FOR THEM IN EVERY AMBUSH, then if they repent and keep up prayer [become believers] and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them (9:5)

    how much is the poor tax?? and why does God need money??
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  33. #33
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    The answer to your every question

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    Why the Police will Kick your ass

  34. #34
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    sorry, i find this fascinating..

    what about this passage??

    Sura 29:46 Muslims are told by Allah, not to question the authority of the scriptures of the Christians, saying, "And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, but say, "We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one;
    The answer to your every question

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  35. #35
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    Anything can be taken out of context, here are verses in the Bible, that are probably taken out of context -

    http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html

    But I will explain those verses one by one.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by spywizard
    this one was interesting

    When the sacred months have passed away, THEN SLAY THE IDOLATERS WHEREVER YOU FIND THEM, AND TAKE THEM CAPTIVES AND BESIEGE THEM AND LIE IN WAIT FOR THEM IN EVERY AMBUSH, then if they repent and keep up prayer [become believers] and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them (9:5)

    how much is the poor tax?? and why does God need money??
    First of all this verse is NOT aimed at Christians and Jews. It was a verse for the Pagans who were out to kill of all the small miniority of Muslims. So GOD gave down a verse, guiding Muslims in the particular fight. This verse is time specific, meaning it was for that time, and the tense of the sentence clearly states.

    Now for that verse in context -

    [9:1] An ultimatum is herein issued from GOD and His messenger to the idol worshipers who enter into a treaty with you.

    [9:2] Therefore, roam the earth freely for four months, and know that you cannot escape from GOD, and that GOD humiliates the disbelievers.

    [9:3] A proclamation is herein issued from GOD and His messenger to all the people on the great day of pilgrimage, that GOD has disowned the idol worshipers, and so did His messenger. Thus, if you repent, it would be better for you. But if you turn away, then know that you can never escape from GOD. Promise those who disbelieve a painful retribution.

    [9:4] If the idol worshipers sign a peace treaty with you, and do not violate it, nor band together with others against you, you shall fulfill your treaty with them until the expiration date. GOD loves the righteous.

    [9:5] Once the Sacred Months are past, (and they refuse to make peace) you may kill the idol worshipers when you encounter them, punish them, and resist every move they make. If they repent and observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and give the obligatory charity (Zakat), you shall let them go. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.

    [9:6] If one of the idol worshipers sought safe passage with you, you shall grant him safe passage, so that he can hear the word of GOD, then send him back to his place of security. That is because they are people who do not know.

    [9:7] How can the idol worshipers demand any pledge from GOD and from His messenger? Exempted are those who have signed a peace treaty with you at the Sacred Masjid. If they honor and uphold such a treaty, you shall uphold it as well. GOD loves the righteous.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by spywizard
    sorry, i find this fascinating..

    what about this passage??

    Sura 29:46 Muslims are told by Allah, not to question the authority of the scriptures of the Christians, saying, "And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, but say, "We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one;
    Whats wrong with the verse? I see nothing wrong?

    [29:46] Do not argue with the people of the scripture (Jews, Christians, and Muslims) except in the nicest possible manner - unless they transgress - and say, "We believe in what was revealed to us and in what was revealed to you, and our god and your god is one and the same; to Him we are submitters."

    [29:47] We have revealed to you this scripture, and those whom we blessed with the previous scripture will believe in it. Also, some of your people will believe in it. Indeed, those who disregard our revelations are the real disbelievers.

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    Two verses mangled and mixed into one. And it says "FIGHT BACK", which is defensive. Muslims dont "turn the other cheek".

    [9:29] You shall fight back against those who do not believe in GOD, nor in the Last Day, nor do they prohibit what GOD and His messenger have prohibited, nor do they abide by the religion of truth - among those who received the scripture - until they pay the due tax, willingly or unwillingly.

    [9:30] The Jews said, "Ezra is the son of GOD," while the Christians said, "Jesus is the son of GOD!" These are blasphemies uttered by their mouths. They thus match the blasphemies of those who have disbelieved in the past. GOD condemns them. They have surely deviated.

  39. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman
    \

    So it took you 3 posts to say all that did it?
    Well to put it bluntly **** your god and **** you.You close minded little cvnt.

    First and last warning. If you cant post respectfully you are not welcome on this board.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by AIZ
    Even people who love G-d are willing to take the chance and break his law. If a woman, who believes deeply in G-d, was raped and became pregnant, and decides she cannot deliever this baby...she has that right. It is now between her and G-d (if that's what she believes).

    If a man and believer in G-d is terminally ill, suffering to the likes that none of us could understand, and chooses not to go on in his present state...it is then between him and G-d

    I'd like to believe that G-d will forgive no matter what.
    I agree fully with this

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