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  1. #1
    3Vandoo's Avatar
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    Messiah, false Messiah

    In the Bible it says that Satan will try to lure humanity with false Messiah, so far do you think the prophets such as Jesus, Mohamed and so far were false messenger trying to lure us. (not their fault)

    Let me explain it, two big religions emerged and since how many people died, perished, were sacrificed, restrained, alienated dued to these religions.

    Why would God send a Messiah in a period where humanity wasnt very populated, nor able to communicate with eachothers.

    Today it would make more sense if a Messiah appears compared than 2000 years ago or 1500 years ago!

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    If the bible says what you claim then Im confused as to why you would suggest that Jesus would be satan? Wouldnt it make the verdict Mohammad?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prada
    If the bible says what you claim then Im confused as to why you would suggest that Jesus would be satan? Wouldnt it make the verdict Mohammad?

    Both are false

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    I guess satan did a good job , your confused .

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    Quote Originally Posted by 3Vandoo
    In the Bible it says that Satan will try to lure humanity with false Messiah, so far do you think the prophets such as Jesus, Mohamed and so far were false messenger trying to lure us. (not their fault)

    Let me explain it, two big religions emerged and since how many people died, perished, were sacrificed, restrained, alienated dued to these religions.

    Why would God send a Messiah in a period where humanity wasnt very populated, nor able to communicate with eachothers.

    Today it would make more sense if a Messiah appears compared than 2000 years ago or 1500 years ago!
    The Jews have had many who there was much talk about being the Messiah, but turned out to be false. One, Sabbatai Zevi, was called to Constantinople by the Sultan, and when told that he needed to convert to Islam or die, he converted! The Jews have done everything they could do to erase his name from Jewish history.

    Oh, and what about David Koresh, Jim Jones, Joseph Smith, etc.

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    God, I love these threads....

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    Quote Originally Posted by Prada
    If the bible says what you claim then Im confused as to why you would suggest that Jesus would be satan? Wouldnt it make the verdict Mohammad?
    Well Judaism sees Jesus (PBUH) as a false prophet, rightfully so, because Jesus (PBUH) according to Judaism does not really accomplish all the requirements of the Messiah.

    The Quran calls Jesus (PBUH) a Messiah.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 3Vandoo
    In the Bible it says that Satan will try to lure humanity with false Messiah, so far do you think the prophets such as Jesus, Mohamed and so far were false messenger trying to lure us. (not their fault)

    Let me explain it, two big religions emerged and since how many people died, perished, were sacrificed, restrained, alienated dued to these religions.

    Why would God send a Messiah in a period where humanity wasnt very populated, nor able to communicate with eachothers.

    Today it would make more sense if a Messiah appears compared than 2000 years ago or 1500 years ago!
    Where is this verse that says that Satan will lure humanity with a false Messiah? Please post the specific verse if you can.

    The Prophet Muhammed (PBUH) is not a Messiah, but he is a Prophet.

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    false prophet

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    Quote Originally Posted by 3Vandoo
    In the Bible it says that Satan will try to lure humanity with false Messiah, so far do you think the prophets such as Jesus, Mohamed and so far were false messenger trying to lure us. (not their fault)

    Let me explain it, two big religions emerged and since how many people died, perished, were sacrificed, restrained, alienated dued to these religions.

    Why would God send a Messiah in a period where humanity wasnt very populated, nor able to communicate with eachothers.

    Today it would make more sense if a Messiah appears compared than 2000 years ago or 1500 years ago!

    I am happy you asked question VannnnnDoooooooosil. I think it is a very relevent question considering the time we live in. I will be back to answere this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 3Vandoo
    In the Bible it says
    Do you beleive everything you read?
    -Tock

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tock
    Do you beleive everything you read?
    -Tock

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    Quote Originally Posted by CAUSASIAN
    Well Judaism sees Jesus (PBUH) as a false prophet, rightfully so, because Jesus (PBUH) according to Judaism does not really accomplish all the requirements of the Messiah.

    The Quran calls Jesus (PBUH) a Messiah.
    according to judaism then, there can NEVER be a messiah in the future, rightfully so, since all family records were destroyed, thus if someone claimed to be the messiah in the future, theres no way to see what line he came from.

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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    according to judaism then, there can NEVER be a messiah in the future, rightfully so, since all family records were destroyed, thus if someone claimed to be the messiah in the future, theres no way to see what line he came from.

    DNA?

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    man kind

    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    according to judaism then, there can NEVER be a messiah in the future, rightfully so, since all family records were destroyed, thus if someone claimed to be the messiah in the future, theres no way to see what line he came from.
    He would come from the family of Man Kind. God does not look upon man in separate races.
    Last edited by Logan13; 01-04-2006 at 04:18 PM. Reason: ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Logan13
    He would come from the family of Man Kind. God does not look upon man in separate races.

    The Messiah is a direct descendant of King David (Hebrew). That's the prophecy. That's what Max was referring to. I believe that was/is Jesus Christ.
    Last edited by alphaman; 01-04-2006 at 08:04 PM.

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    exactly. of course this is just me talkin, but i think that was a direct play into God's plan. the destruction of the records makes it impossible for anyone after 70ad (i think it was 70ad) to be proven messiah. The only one that fits ever is Jesus, and noone after Jesus can be proven.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by max2extreme
    according to judaism then, there can NEVER be a messiah in the future, rightfully so, since all family records were destroyed, thus if someone claimed to be the messiah in the future, theres no way to see what line he came from.
    Islam belives Jesus (PBUH) fulfilled the prophecies of the Jewish Messiah.

    But in am arguing in the Jewish prespective.

    These are the requirements according to Judaism -

    The Sanhedrin will be re-established (Isaiah 1:26)

    Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance. (Isaiah 2:4)

    The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:17)

    He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via King Solomon (1 Chron. 22:8-10)

    The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with “fear of God” (Isaiah 11:2)

    Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4)

    Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9)

    He will include and attract all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)

    Jews will have returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12)

    He will swallow up death forever (Isaiah 25:8)

    There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25:8)

    All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19)

    The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11)

    He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 52:7)

    Nations will end up recognizing the wrongs they did Israel (Isaiah 52:13-53:5)

    For My House shall be called a house of prayer for all the nations (Isaiah 56:3-7)

    The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23)

    The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55)

    Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9)

    The Temple will be rebuilt (Ezekiel 40) resuming many of the suspended mitzvos

    He will then perfect the entire world to serve God together, as it is written (Zephaniah 3:9)

    Jews will know the Torah without Study (Jeremiah 31:33)

    He will give you all the desires of your heart (Psalms 37:4)

    He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13-15, Ezekiel 36:29-30, Isaiah 11:6-9)

  19. #19
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    What Moshe ben Maimon says on this is interesting, he was one of the best Jewish writers and scholars.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maimonides

    Maimonides writes why Jews believe that Jesus was wrong to create Christianity and why they believe that Muhammad was wrong to create Islam he laments the pains that Jews felt as a result of these new faiths that attempted to supplant Judaism.

    However, Maimonides then goes on to say that both faiths help God redeem the world.

    As for Yeshua of Nazareth, who claimed to be the anointed one and was killed by the court, Daniel had already prophecied about him, thus: "And the children of your people's rebels shall raise themselves to set up prophecy and will stumble" (Ibid. 14). Can there be a bigger stumbling block than this? All the Prophets said that the Anointed One saves Israel and rescues them, gathers their strayed ones and strengthens their mitzvot whereas this one caused the loss of Israel by sword, and to scatter their remnant and humiliate them, and to change the Torah and to cause most of the world to erroneously worship a god besides the Lord. But the human mind has no power to reach the thoughts of the Creator, for His thoughts and ways are unlike ours. All these matters of yeshua of Nazareth and of the Ishmaelite who stood up after him (Muhammad) are only intended to pave the way for the Anointed King, and to mend the entire world to worship God together, thus: "For then I shall turn a clear tongue to the nations to call all in the Name of the Lord and to worship him with one shoulder."

    How is this? The entire world had become filled with the issues of the Anointed One and of the Torah and the Laws, and these issues had spread out unto faraway islands and among many nations uncircumcised in the heart, and they discuss these issues and the Torah's laws. These say: These Laws were true but are already defunct in these days, and do not rule for the following generations; whereas the other ones say: There are secret layers in them and they are not to be treated literally, and the Messiah had come and revealed their secret meanings. But when the Anointed King will truly rise and succeed and will be raised and uplifted, they all immediately turn about and know that their fathers inherited falsehood, and their prophets and ancestors led them astray.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by CAUSASIAN
    What Moshe ben Maimon says on this is interesting, he was one of the best Jewish writers and scholars.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maimonides

    Maimonides writes why Jews believe that Jesus was wrong to create Christianity and why they believe that Muhammad was wrong to create Islam he laments the pains that Jews felt as a result of these new faiths that attempted to supplant Judaism.

    However, Maimonides then goes on to say that both faiths help God redeem the world.

    As for Yeshua of Nazareth, who claimed to be the anointed one and was killed by the court, Daniel had already prophecied about him, thus: "And the children of your people's rebels shall raise themselves to set up prophecy and will stumble" (Ibid. 14). Can there be a bigger stumbling block than this? All the Prophets said that the Anointed One saves Israel and rescues them, gathers their strayed ones and strengthens their mitzvot whereas this one caused the loss of Israel by sword, and to scatter their remnant and humiliate them, and to change the Torah and to cause most of the world to erroneously worship a god besides the Lord. But the human mind has no power to reach the thoughts of the Creator, for His thoughts and ways are unlike ours. All these matters of yeshua of Nazareth and of the Ishmaelite who stood up after him (Muhammad) are only intended to pave the way for the Anointed King, and to mend the entire world to worship God together, thus: "For then I shall turn a clear tongue to the nations to call all in the Name of the Lord and to worship him with one shoulder."

    How is this? The entire world had become filled with the issues of the Anointed One and of the Torah and the Laws, and these issues had spread out unto faraway islands and among many nations uncircumcised in the heart, and they discuss these issues and the Torah's laws. These say: These Laws were true but are already defunct in these days, and do not rule for the following generations; whereas the other ones say: There are secret layers in them and they are not to be treated literally, and the Messiah had come and revealed their secret meanings. But when the Anointed King will truly rise and succeed and will be raised and uplifted, they all immediately turn about and know that their fathers inherited falsehood, and their prophets and ancestors led them astray.

    interesting sketch ! good post !

  21. #21
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    damien_jourdan asks, How can we know or be sure that the Bible is true?

    Before I begin, let me recommend F. F. Bruce's small book "Are the New Testament Documents Reliable?" There are several approaches to answer this- let me be brief with two. First, we find many other ancient books true. The works of Plato, for example. There are very few manuscripts of Plato and those are dated many, many centuries after Plato died. But scholars do uphold those as being reliable and universities across the globe find Plato foundational to much modern philosophy. The New Testament documents are much closer to the actual dates. I believe we have some that are within the lifetime of those who may have seen Christ or are descended directly from those who saw Christ. According to scholars, we have to treat the NT documents the same as those of Plato. And what's more, there is even more reliability because they are so close to the actual event. Myth takes a long time to develop in a culture. The Jesus story is no myth, even on secular standards of historic documents. The second way I'd answer this is to look at how the stories are told. Look at the resurrection, for example. If I were fabricating this story in the ancient world...I would not use WOMEN to find the empty tomb. I would use men. Why? Because women were not treated as a reliable witness in the ancient world so the bestexplanation for the women finding the empty tomb first in the Gospel Narrative is because it actually happened. There are many more examples like this, but if you look at Bruce's book, it will cash it out more than I can here.

    calvinkaya asks, I would like to know how should I share the Gospel with Muslims? I am an online Turkish Muslim evangelist to Turkey.

    Good question. Let's look at the epistemology question above. In reflection on it, in our society, we don't rely on testimony so much as we do on sense perception. But Muslims aren't the same way. Three things come to mind when thinking about reaching out to Muslims and giving them knowledge that they'll accept. 1) They respond well to a community of love. They themselves do a lot to help in their community, though there are so many factions of Muslims in the world warring with one another, one wonders how long they can last before they see through the guise of hatred. 2) Muslims accept visions dreams as a means of knowledge. I know the story of an official in a middle eastern country. He was a Muslim and had dreams almost every night for seven years and in those dreams he saw Jesus speaking to him. After seven years, he gave his life to Christ. The dreams have stopped. Muslims think God communicates through dreams and visions and so they listen well to them. 3) The scripture. Muslims regard highly their holy book. And most of them have never heard or read the Bible. For them to be exposed to the Bible and how coherent and story-like it is of God's actions in the world they will be impressed with it. Of course, there are some apologetic ideas regarding Islam as a belief system. One example is, "Who was Allah loving before he created?" He has no answer, for Allah needed creation in order to love anything. But the Christian God has the Trinity in which the Father loves the Son and they two love the Spirit. So the Christian God did not need anything in order to love- in the Trinity there was community already and this is one argument I find helpful in explaining the problem with Islam in an ideational way. I hope this helps and good blessing in taking the name of Christ to Turkey!

    ServingHim announces, Interested in the book Dale mentioned "The New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable". Click here.

    http://www.rzim.org/publications/ess...text.php?id=19

  22. #22
    alphaman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CAUSASIAN
    What Moshe ben Maimon says on this is interesting, he was one of the best Jewish writers and scholars.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maimonides

    Maimonides writes why Jews believe that Jesus was wrong to create Christianity and why they believe that Muhammad was wrong to create Islam he laments the pains that Jews felt as a result of these new faiths that attempted to supplant Judaism.

    However, Maimonides then goes on to say that both faiths help God redeem the world.

    As for Yeshua of Nazareth, who claimed to be the anointed one and was killed by the court, Daniel had already prophecied about him, thus: "And the children of your people's rebels shall raise themselves to set up prophecy and will stumble" (Ibid. 14). Can there be a bigger stumbling block than this? All the Prophets said that the Anointed One saves Israel and rescues them, gathers their strayed ones and strengthens their mitzvot whereas this one caused the loss of Israel by sword, and to scatter their remnant and humiliate them, and to change the Torah and to cause most of the world to erroneously worship a god besides the Lord. But the human mind has no power to reach the thoughts of the Creator, for His thoughts and ways are unlike ours. All these matters of yeshua of Nazareth and of the Ishmaelite who stood up after him (Muhammad) are only intended to pave the way for the Anointed King, and to mend the entire world to worship God together, thus: "For then I shall turn a clear tongue to the nations to call all in the Name of the Lord and to worship him with one shoulder."

    How is this? The entire world had become filled with the issues of the Anointed One and of the Torah and the Laws, and these issues had spread out unto faraway islands and among many nations uncircumcised in the heart, and they discuss these issues and the Torah's laws. These say: These Laws were true but are already defunct in these days, and do not rule for the following generations; whereas the other ones say: There are secret layers in them and they are not to be treated literally, and the Messiah had come and revealed their secret meanings. But when the Anointed King will truly rise and succeed and will be raised and uplifted, they all immediately turn about and know that their fathers inherited falsehood, and their prophets and ancestors led them astray.
    The prophets said this of Jesus. but the Hebrews denied Him. Many say that the Hebrews job was to witness God's love to the world, but that they failed in their covenant. That they were almost posessive in their relationship with Him. Not only were they posessive, but they were not faithful. Prophets always arose in times of sinfulness and idolatry in the Hebrew culture. This is a good book that conveys this view.....



    http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0801...68#reader-link

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by boots555
    damien_jourdan asks, How can we know or be sure that the Bible is true?

    Before I begin, let me recommend F. F. Bruce's small book "Are the New Testament Documents Reliable?" There are several approaches to answer this- let me be brief with two. First, we find many other ancient books true. The works of Plato, for example. There are very few manuscripts of Plato and those are dated many, many centuries after Plato died. But scholars do uphold those as being reliable and universities across the globe find Plato foundational to much modern philosophy. The New Testament documents are much closer to the actual dates. I believe we have some that are within the lifetime of those who may have seen Christ or are descended directly from those who saw Christ. According to scholars, we have to treat the NT documents the same as those of Plato. And what's more, there is even more reliability because they are so close to the actual event. Myth takes a long time to develop in a culture. The Jesus story is no myth, even on secular standards of historic documents. The second way I'd answer this is to look at how the stories are told. Look at the resurrection, for example. If I were fabricating this story in the ancient world...I would not use WOMEN to find the empty tomb. I would use men. Why? Because women were not treated as a reliable witness in the ancient world so the bestexplanation for the women finding the empty tomb first in the Gospel Narrative is because it actually happened. There are many more examples like this, but if you look at Bruce's book, it will cash it out more than I can here.

    calvinkaya asks, I would like to know how should I share the Gospel with Muslims? I am an online Turkish Muslim evangelist to Turkey.

    Good question. Let's look at the epistemology question above. In reflection on it, in our society, we don't rely on testimony so much as we do on sense perception. But Muslims aren't the same way. Three things come to mind when thinking about reaching out to Muslims and giving them knowledge that they'll accept. 1) They respond well to a community of love. They themselves do a lot to help in their community, though there are so many factions of Muslims in the world warring with one another, one wonders how long they can last before they see through the guise of hatred. 2) Muslims accept visions dreams as a means of knowledge. I know the story of an official in a middle eastern country. He was a Muslim and had dreams almost every night for seven years and in those dreams he saw Jesus speaking to him. After seven years, he gave his life to Christ. The dreams have stopped. Muslims think God communicates through dreams and visions and so they listen well to them. 3) The scripture. Muslims regard highly their holy book. And most of them have never heard or read the Bible. For them to be exposed to the Bible and how coherent and story-like it is of God's actions in the world they will be impressed with it. Of course, there are some apologetic ideas regarding Islam as a belief system. One example is, "Who was Allah loving before he created?" He has no answer, for Allah needed creation in order to love anything. But the Christian God has the Trinity in which the Father loves the Son and they two love the Spirit. So the Christian God did not need anything in order to love- in the Trinity there was community already and this is one argument I find helpful in explaining the problem with Islam in an ideational way. I hope this helps and good blessing in taking the name of Christ to Turkey!

    ServingHim announces, Interested in the book Dale mentioned "The New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable". Click here.

    http://www.rzim.org/publications/ess...text.php?id=19


    Now THAT"S a graet post!!

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