01-19-2006, 06:14 AM #1
Lets discuss the logic around gods traits
I want to keep this thread on topic so any off topic posts will be deleted as soon as I notice them. If it happens dont take offense. I take the liberty to fully and without debate decide what is off topic or not in this thread.
Also please dont do huge cut and paste jobs in this thread. I want a discussion betwen the members. Not betwen whos favorite scholar has the best qoute. Feel free to base your arguments on other peoples thoughts, just dont paste the whole god damn thing. Write it in your own words and put a reference/link to it.
Now to get started. I dont think god logicaly can have all the traits he is claimed to have.(offcourse I assume god must cant do logicaly contradicting things like creating a square circle).
Lets start with omnipotent and omniscent.
Consider this. If god is truly omniscent he knows everything, including the future. But in knowing the future it means he cant change it. Because if he change it he didnt know the future to begin with.
Saying he knows all the possible outcomes of a event isnt saving it either. If I knock a vase of a table I know it can either fall down and break or fall down and not break. That doestn make me know everything about the situation. Since I dont know which of those possible outcomes that will be realise. Now god on the other hand he knows that(for instance) it will break. That knoweledge makes him powerless to change the outcome because if he saves the vase his knoweledge of the future was wrong, since the vase didnt break.
So if he is omniscent he cant be omnipotent. Those traits are mutualy exclusive.
01-19-2006, 11:58 AM #2
Are you talking about the Newcomb's paradox?
It doesnt have to be mutually exclusive. This is a very very complex topic, and there are books with hundreds of pages de****g with this very subject.
We are by nature finite and limited, we have a finite and limited degree of power and freedom.
We belive in Divine Predestination, but this belief in Divine Predestination does not mean that human beings do not have freewill. But we believe that God has given human beings freewill.
Basically to sum it up, GOD decided to create man with free will, but He knows before creating every man how he is going to use his free will.
01-19-2006, 12:26 PM #3
I have never heard of newcombs paradox. I mean that god cant be both omnipotent and omniscent as far as I can tell. Its impossible. One renders the other useless.
It has nothing to do with the free will of humans...
01-19-2006, 12:28 PM #4
if god knows the future he is powerless to change it. Because if he changes it his previous knoweledge was wrong. But a omniscent beeing can not be wrong.
01-19-2006, 12:32 PM #5
That is if he changes anything? Maybe his formula beforehand is perfect, and he doesnt need changes?
01-19-2006, 12:33 PM #6
well but then he isnt omnipotent because he is powerless to change anything.
01-19-2006, 12:41 PM #7
Maybe he knows the changes he will need to make. lol
I will read more into this before I respond. You caught me in a corner.
01-19-2006, 03:45 PM #8
well readOriginally Posted by CAUSASIAN
01-19-2006, 04:38 PM #9Originally Posted by johan
There is no contradiction btw. Omniscient and omnipotent. Your idea has certain presuppositions attached to it. I got into extended arguement about this with my philosophy professor. I will go into this, not now, once I have more time. It is easy to forget foundations upon which the arguement stands before even beginning to approach this arguement. I have no need to argue that though, I can start in the very middle of the proposition.
01-19-2006, 04:43 PM #10
looking forward to it I will be away over the weekend with limited internet acess so no rush.
01-19-2006, 04:48 PM #11
I think God is a supercomputer
01-20-2006, 02:54 AM #12Originally Posted by johan
Ill contribute to this thread tomorrow...im bout to leave but wanted to leave you with this thought...IF God planned on either a) letting the vase break, or b) not breaking, he could still do it, but known before the decision he was going to break. correct..so he did cause whichever to happen, and he knew hed make that decision.
but also, dont forget that God lives in a timeless place. God is above time. so think abot it from that perspective. ok gotta run...wife is yellin. peace.
01-20-2006, 09:16 PM #13
Yes, God is a supercomputer and humankind is a virus!
01-20-2006, 09:48 PM #14Originally Posted by johan
to us there is a future. but our future means nothing to Him. understand or no?
01-20-2006, 09:49 PM #15Originally Posted by johan
there are some things he cant do though...can he create a rock too heavy for him to lift? no.
01-21-2006, 04:58 AM #16
I deleted some off topic posts.
Originally Posted by max2extreme
Look at it like this, when he meddles in our universe he must in some way be time dependant, atleast when here. I dont se how a timeless beeing could do changes in time unless he becomes somewhat time dependant. You cant do anything inside a room before you step into the room kind of?? Does that sound resonable? To act upon something you need to be in its time and space.
But when he is here he sure knows the future so he is powerless to change...
Are you saying that the instant the universe was created god had already decided each action he will ever take during the timespan of the universe and since he is omniscient there is never any reason to change his plan?
But does that make him omnipotent? Nevermind if he wants to change or not. Just think about if he can change. If he wanted to change something today that wasnt part of his original plan, could he? Or was he locked to one plan the moment time was created?
I hoped you followed what Im saying.
01-21-2006, 08:13 AM #17Originally Posted by johan
01-21-2006, 09:25 AM #18Originally Posted by BeerBaron
01-21-2006, 09:30 AM #19Originally Posted by johan
Originally Posted by JOHAN
01-21-2006, 10:11 AM #20Originally Posted by BeerBaron
Originally Posted by max2extreme
Yes i agrre though, there is no reason whatsoever for him to change anything in his plan since his plan must have been perfect from the begining. I can agree with that. I guess this kinds of kills my argument
01-21-2006, 10:12 AM #21Originally Posted by max2extreme
Originally Posted by BeerBaron
Beer Im not saying he cant do anything in the universe. Im saying that he can not stray from his own plan because that would be a breach against his omnisciens(sp?). Thats why I deleted your first post(like I said at first plz dont take any offense) because it didnt realy deal with if god can change or not. No example from reality or the bible can settle if he is able to change his plan or not since we can not know or even speculate about his plan.
Im not realy talking about the christian god either. Im just curious if a entity can be all knowing and omnipotent at the same time without any logical contradictions.
Last edited by Kärnfysikern; 01-21-2006 at 10:14 AM.
01-21-2006, 11:29 AM #22
What about this. One way or another, earth will no longer be able to support life in the future. That means this is part of his plan. But he created us, as I'm told, because he wanted something to love and warship him. Perhaps our love gets old after a while and he needs some fresh lovin'
Sorry if this is too off topic.
01-21-2006, 01:11 PM #23
well we have a few billion years to figure out a way to get the hell away from earth. Maby he has planned for us to spread away from earth. Who knows. Its impossible to comment on a plan we dont know anything about. If god exists offcourse
01-21-2006, 05:03 PM #24Originally Posted by BeerBaron
01-21-2006, 05:07 PM #25
Omnipotent = all powerful; omniscient = all knowing. How does one "render the other useless.." If you're all knowing it's useless to be all powerful or visa versa.
Originally Posted by johan
01-21-2006, 05:53 PM #26Originally Posted by Mike Dura
Lets take the vase example again.
If you knock over a vase and is omniscient you will know for sure if the vase will break or not when it hits the floor. Assume its going to break. Since you know it will break you are powerless to stop it from breaking even if you are omnipotent. Because if you stop it from breaking it means your previous knoweledge about it going to break was wrong.
But you are omniscient so you cant be wrong thats why the vase have to break.
You are powerless to stop it from breaking=not omnipotent.
if you are omniscient you cant be omnipotent.
01-21-2006, 06:04 PM #27Originally Posted by johan
What if God knew about the vase, He understood the vase (which He gave free will) and the perfect space/time used it as his will, but still allowed it "free will" to do as it (vase) pleases..
Last edited by boots555; 01-21-2006 at 06:06 PM.
01-21-2006, 06:11 PM #28
Although my first question should be "What foundation was the vase created upon? If created, who was the creator, then we go from there.
01-23-2006, 02:51 PM #29
Il get back to this thread soon. Havent forgotten it. But I was away this weekend and had to formate my harddrive today.
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