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  1. #1
    alphaman's Avatar
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    Muslims believe the Jews are "settlers"? Makes no sense to me.

    Obviously there are many accounts of history. Each side claiming it's own........ Of course my opinion is of Biblical origins (the oldest account, therefore most reliable, IMO).

    State your case!

  2. #2
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    Many Muslims consider anyone else on "their" land to be illegitimate and infidels. What many Muslims fail to remember is that before they conqured and colonized the land (by the sword) the area was inhabited by others.

    Israel is the homeland of the Jewish People. Always has been, always will be...long before the Muslims left Arabia to conquer the area.

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    this says it all :


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    plus according to the International War Law every settler on an occupied land is considered a solider.

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    from the above united nations map its obvious there was more jews(4%) in Gaza than Jeruslame(2%)

  6. #6
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    why do even people care what tribe lived where 2000 years ago? Just another example of religion causing crap!!

    Hell its not like the same's is trying to force away swedes from northern sweden. Native americans isnt waging war on the states. The inka/aztek/ect descendants arent trying to get back south and central america from the spaniards. Africans arent trying to kick the shit out of whites in south africa.

    If you lost the land get over it. Deal with reality not the distant past. I mean how many countries in the middle east has the same borders now as 2000 years ago??? Not a single one I bet.

    Does anyone realy think god wants brothers and sisters to stab eachother in the back in order to regain a totaly worthless plot of land?

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by johan
    why do even people care what tribe lived where 2000 years ago? Just another example of religion causing crap!!

    Hell its not like the same's is trying to force away swedes from northern sweden. Native americans isnt waging war on the states. The inka/aztek/ect descendants arent trying to get back south and central america from the spaniards. Africans arent trying to kick the shit out of whites in south africa.

    If you lost the land get over it. Deal with reality not the distant past. I mean how many countries in the middle east has the same borders now as 2000 years ago??? Not a single one I bet.

    Does anyone realy think god wants brothers and sisters to stab eachother in the back in order to regain a totaly worthless plot of land?
    Ain't that the truth!

  8. #8
    alphaman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MilitiaGuy
    plus according to the International War Law every settler on an occupied land is considered a solider.
    So are you saying that Muslims are settlers, or that Jews are settlers?

  9. #9
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    [QUOTE=MilitiaGuy]this says it all :

    Actually, this says it all:

    "The only period in the last 3,000 years without a continued Jewish presence in the West Bank was the 19 years between 1948-1967 when the Jordanian government banned Jews from living there."

    Otherwise, we've been living in Israel and the territories for 3,300 years. If I calculate correctly, that's approximately 2,000 years before the rise of Islam and just over 2,050 years before 1 Muslim ever stepped foot here.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by johan
    why do even people care what tribe lived where 2000 years ago? Just another example of religion causing crap!!

    Hell its not like the same's is trying to force away swedes from northern sweden. Native americans isnt waging war on the states. The inka/aztek/ect descendants arent trying to get back south and central america from the spaniards. Africans arent trying to kick the shit out of whites in south africa.

    If you lost the land get over it. Deal with reality not the distant past. I mean how many countries in the middle east has the same borders now as 2000 years ago??? Not a single one I bet.

    Does anyone realy think god wants brothers and sisters to stab eachother in the back in order to regain a totaly worthless plot of land?
    I agree with this.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by johan
    why do even people care what tribe lived where 2000 years ago? Just another example of religion causing crap!!


    Does anyone realy think god wants brothers and sisters to stab eachother in the back in order to regain a totaly worthless plot of land?

    That is much easier said than done. You can say "religion" caused this, but the fact is that only pertains to your perception. "Religion", is a man made concept, that is used to describe how a man perceives his relationship with God, or spirituality.

    The fact is.... these people don't see it as "religion", they see it as a promise from God. What could be more powerful than that?

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by alphaman
    That is much easier said than done. You can say "religion" caused this, but the fact is that only pertains to your perception. "Religion", is a man made concept, that is used to describe how a man perceives his relationship with God, or spirituality.

    The fact is.... these people don't see it as "religion", they see it as a promise from God. What could be more powerful than that?
    what could be more powerfull....well seeing your friends/family/kids beeing slaughtered should be more powerfull. I will never understand how a mother or father can send there kids into a war over some religious place. No plot of land is worth a life. None.

  13. #13
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    I,for the life of me, can't understand whey the arabs strap bombs to their childrens chest and send them to be blown up. That's very very sad. There is other ways to solve conflicts. I don't care if the Jew or Muslim gets violent, it's the one who resorts to peaceful tatics that is going to survive in the long run.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by johan
    what could be more powerfull....well seeing your friends/family/kids beeing slaughtered should be more powerfull. I will never understand how a mother or father can send there kids into a war over some religious place. No plot of land is worth a life. None.

    Well to those people, the life on this earth is fleeting. Very short in the aspect of the big picture. And they believe that what they do in this short time on earth is dependant on how/where they spend their eternal lives. I am not saying I agree with violent practices. I am saying that it is easier said than done, and that you must understand where these people are coming from before you state that the solution is so simple. If it was that simple, then the problem would have been solved long ago.

  15. #15
    alphaman's Avatar
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    http://www.masada2000.org/

    I think this is an interesting web page.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by alphaman
    Well to those people, the life on this earth is fleeting. Very short in the aspect of the big picture. And they believe that what they do in this short time on earth is dependant on how/where they spend their eternal lives. I am not saying I agree with violent practices. I am saying that it is easier said than done, and that you must understand where these people are coming from before you state that the solution is so simple. If it was that simple, then the problem would have been solved long ago.
    I dont think the solution is simple at all. From my point of view its simple. Make sure no more people are brainwashed by bastards that **** up religion or get rid of religion totaly. But to make that work in real life would take a miracle and god seems busy right now

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by alphaman
    http://www.masada2000.org/

    I think this is an interesting web page.
    In short, the so-called Arab "Palestinians" are a manufactured people...a people with no history and no authenticity... whose sole purpose for existence is to destroy the Jewish State!

    I can already tell this is a one sided story. I'm not even going to finish reading it after seeing this.

  18. #18
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    That's an entire one sided website.

  19. #19
    alphaman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big_Flex
    I can already tell this is a one sided story. I'm not even going to finish reading it after seeing this.

    Good for you buddy!

  20. #20
    alphaman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johan
    I dont think the solution is simple at all. From my point of view its simple.

    Well, of course. But again, that's from your point of view, but I bet it would be quite different if you were brought up in those surroundings.

    Quote Originally Posted by johan
    Make sure no more people are brainwashed by bastards that **** up religion or get rid of religion totaly.
    Impossible.


    Quote Originally Posted by johan
    But to make that work in real life would take a miracle and god seems busy right now
    He will make it right. He created imperfect beings with free will for a reason. He has given us the answers we need to be part of the miracle, it is up o us to do the rest.

  21. #21
    alphaman's Avatar
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    All do respect Johan, but we're getting off topic here. The thread isn't about whether it's right to squabble over land. It's about presenting evidence of who it belongs to.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by alphaman
    All do respect Johan, but we're getting off topic here. The thread isn't about whether it's right to squabble over land. It's about presenting evidence of who it belongs to.
    Does America belong to the Indians? Or the Hispanics?

    Or does Turkey belong to the Armanians?

    It belongs to the people that are living there now. Bottom line.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big_Flex
    Does America belong to the Indians? Or the Hispanics?

    Or does Turkey belong to the Armanians?

    It belongs to the people that are living there now. Bottom line.

    Excuse me..... evidence of who the rightful owners are........

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by alphaman
    All do respect Johan, but we're getting off topic here. The thread isn't about whether it's right to squabble over land. It's about presenting evidence of who it belongs to.
    yes your right...

    How do you decide who the land belongs to? Before presenting evidence we should know what requirements need to be meet to be considered entitled to the land?

    Almost ever nation has taken its land by force so I guess the same should be rule of thumb in this case and that means israel belongs to the jews. Offcourse if the arabs manages to occupy the land it becomes arab land.

    Who ever lived there 3000, 2000 or 100 years ago doesnt matter much imo.

  25. #25
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    and what is considered a rightfull owner?? Forget about the bible now.

    As I said earlier. Is the same's the rightfull owners of northern norway, sweden and finland?

    is the native americans the rightfull owners of america?

    Just because you have lived in a land for a shitlong time does it make you the rightfull owner?

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by johan
    yes your right...

    How do you decide who the land belongs to? Before presenting evidence we should know what requirements need to be meet to be considered entitled to the land?

    Almost ever nation has taken its land by force so I guess the same should be rule of thumb in this case and that means israel belongs to the jews. Offcourse if the arabs manages to occupy the land it becomes arab land.

    Who ever lived there 3000, 2000 or 100 years ago doesnt matter much imo.
    You seem to be a peaceful person. So if someone came into your home, beat the crap uot of you, and kicked you out...... you would say, "well they occupy the place now, so I guess they are the right ful owners." My guess is that you would call the police and get them kicked out of there!

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by johan
    is the native americans the rightfull owners of america?

    Just because you have lived in a land for a shitlong time does it make you the rightfull owner?

    Yes and yes.

  28. #28
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    Militiaguy!

    Answer this.......


    Where did the name "Palestine" come from?

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by alphaman
    You seem to be a peaceful person. So if someone came into your home, beat the crap uot of you, and kicked you out...... you would say, "well they occupy the place now, so I guess they are the right ful owners." My guess is that you would call the police and get them kicked out of there!
    If no police force exist and there is no concivable way for me to get back my home without risking my own life or my familys life I would indeed say "keep the place". No home is worth my or my familys life.

    Quote Originally Posted by alphaman
    Yes and yes.
    But isnt it hypocritical to claim jews own israel because they where there for a long time without handing back your own land to the native americans(you are american right?)?

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by johan
    If no police force exist and there is no concivable way for me to get back my home without risking my own life or my familys life I would indeed say "keep the place". No home is worth my or my familys life.
    But you would still say the place was rightfully yours, and that they took it by force, would you not? Wouldn't it still be a sore subject for you? And there are police (USA).


    Quote Originally Posted by johan
    But isnt it hypocritical to claim jews own israel because they where there for a long time without handing back your own land to the native americans(you are american right?)?
    Well, I do think that's hypocritical of the country I live in, and I do think we should have and should do more for native americans than we have.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by alphaman
    But you would still say the place was rightfully yours, and that they took it by force, would you not? Wouldn't it still be a sore subject for you? And there are police (USA).
    Sure it would probably piss me off I cant deny that. But Im a adaptable kind of guy so I would manage.

    btw my "take by force and you get to keep it" argument was to support jews right to israel right now today.

    Who acctualy took land from who? did the arabs steal land from the jews and the jews took it back after ww2. Or did the jews steal land from the arabs after ww2?

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by alphaman
    Well, I do think that's hypocritical of the country I live in, and I do think we should have and should do more for native americans than we have.
    so if a old native american came to your home tomorrow claiming his ancestors used to live there and showed you a hidden cave below your house with cave paintings as proof. Would you say "your the rightfull owner all right" and hand him the key to your place? or would you tell him to forget about it because its your place now?

  33. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Big_Flex
    I,for the life of me, can't understand whey the arabs strap bombs to their childrens chest and send them to be blown up. That's very very sad. There is other ways to solve conflicts. I don't care if the Jew or Muslim gets violent, it's the one who resorts to peaceful tatics that is going to survive in the long run.
    I agree with you. It is very hard to understand but we never experienced living in similar environment so I cannot comment on it.

    Note that people from other races/cultures did that before Arabs; Japanese during WWII, and Tamilies in Sri Lanka.

  34. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by johan
    why do even people care what tribe lived where 2000 years ago?
    Some times I fail to understand that as well! Based on that logic, Native Americans have the right to kick us (White people) out of the states and Canada because it was their land hundreds of years ago. Also, Saddam was right when he invaded Kuwait because Kuwait was part of Iraq many years ago!

  35. #35
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    I am fed up of arguing about this.

    Just lets leave it this way. Muslims will till the end of time will fight for Jerusalem and Palestine. No matter what happens.

    I dont care who was there first, I dont care who was there last.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by alphaman
    Excuse me..... evidence of who the rightful owners are........
    So let's kill all the arabs now and get rid of them. I hear you. Do you think it matters to someone who's land it was 2,000 years ago. NO, they're worried about the times now and they'll fight to stay on their land and conquer other land.

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    I hope the UN one day divides the US in half, and gives half of the US to Native Americans.

    Now they would build settlements, and let Native Americans from across the world, mainly Mexico and South America and Canada come in and settle in to half of the US.

    I am sure Americans would welcome this with open arms. They wouldnt fight. They would be peaceful and welcome these people.

    All hypocrites.

    Texas at a certain time WAS Mexico. Now when Mexicans are coming back to their historic land, Americans are crying about it. This includes other states like Arizona and New Mexico. Americans also have armed militias guarding the borders with Mexico. Come on, they were there first, give to the Mexicans all of Old Mexico. Aztlan.

    http://aztlan.net
    Last edited by CAUSASIAN; 01-29-2006 at 04:57 PM.

  38. #38
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    I wonder how Americans would feel if other nations started funding people that would make the US look like this.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Muslims believe the Jews are "settlers"?  Makes no sense to me.-us-divided-map.gif  

  39. #39
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    To be picky....Alot of the mexicans getting back to texas nowdays is probably spaniards not real mexicans....

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by johan
    To be picky....Alot of the mexicans getting back to texas nowdays is probably spaniards not real mexicans....
    Spaniards look Caucasian and are Caucasian. But Mexicans are brown, they are the sons of Aztecs. The President Vicente Fox is probably a Spaniard, but most people that come into the US are Mexicans.

    But even if what you said is true, that is perfect for this analogy.

    Because most Jews coming into Palestine are Europeans and not Hebrews.

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