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How important is trap strenght for deadlifts? I noticed that when I included mega heavy barbel cheat shrughs into my routine that my lockout power in deadlift improved alot.
Is it normal to shrugh more then I deadlift? The weight I can do 3 reps with in the deadlift I can cheat shrug for 8 reps or so.
I think you answered your own question bro. If the shrugs help, keep doing them. I like to do them as I think they help my top end strength as well. I do find it odd that you can shrug more than you can deadlift. Your traps seem to be plenty strong. I think you should spend some time working your lower back and hamstrings. Find your weak points and hammer them.Quote:
Originally Posted by johan
if I do strickt shrughs I cant do more then I deadlift. But if I use legdrive and blast it upp then I can use more then I deadlift for the same ammount of reps.
You seem to be a lot bigger than last year. Good work J
Thanks man,Quote:
Originally Posted by bermich
this year I will have alot of pressure on me to grow like a weed cause Im gonna be onstage in december 2005 :lift: and with no uni(taking a year off) Im gonna be able to put 100% into bodybuilding.
westside has done wonders for me, but now its time to try doggcrapp
Shrugs can make a huge difference in your abiliuty to lockout the deadlift. I was getting some help from Purepower on my deadlift, and he told me that my last set of shrugs should be about the same as my current 1RM on deads...except I should be getting it for 5 reps on shrugs.
Before I was able to try this, I had a severely pulled ab muscle. Then, I started DC training ...no shrugs here.
Instead, we do rack deads. Let me tell you...these fry my traps 10x worse than any shrugs ever have. Again, you would be using more weight than you can deadlift, and going for reps. Give rack deads a try.
Yeah Il throw in rack deads somewhere. Maby when I stop gaining in regular dl Il put rack deads in its place.Quote:
Originally Posted by Swellin
Right now I do these back thickness exercises
workout 1 deadlift
workout 2 t-bar
workout 3 seated cabel row
maby I should exchange the seated rows for rack deads? :unsure:
btw how high do you do your rack deads? bar just above knees? The rack in my gym sucks cause it doesnt have holes all the way down. I usualy do shorter deadlifts by stacking 3 plates on each side and let the plates thats on the the barbel rest on them. Shortens the range of motion a bit, but is it short enough for this purpose? Cause for some reason Im weaker in deads that way then regular deadlifts. :unsure:
Rack deads are done with the bar anywhere from just below the knee, to right at the knee...depending upon your equipment. Mine is right at the knee, but when I bed to do the deads...my knee dips just below it (almost). You have to work around your equipment. If the bar is too high, simply add a couple of boards or a wooden box under your feet to elevate your body. Of course, the boards would need to be attached to each other. lol
Rack deads are one of my favorite exercises, second only to full deads. So, I would put the rack deads in ther and throw out the seated cable rows. I only use the seated cable row for one of my extreme stretches.
Man now I feel stupid for never even thinking about the idea of standing on a box in the rack :lol: Such a obvious solution but it never even struck my mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Swellin
Il defenetly throw out seated rows and replace them with rack pulls. :dance:
Thanks for the advice bro :lift:
Don't feel bad, it took me a while to come up with it. In fact, somebody left the darn box in my way and I didn't get it.
Glad to help.
You should be able to shrug way more than you can deadlift. I do shrugs 2 or 300 lbs more than I can max on my deads.Quote:
Originally Posted by johan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Powrlftr
I disagree... I can DL a hell of a lot more then I can shrugg. The only thing I can figure is that you must not Deadlift very much (no offense) if you are shrugging more than you Dead lift. How many times have you seen guys shrugging over 700lbs? Besides.. Your Core (legs/hip flexers/lower back) are much stronger than the traps.. They should be anyway...
No offense taken. I see myself shrugging over 700 every deadlift day, (good form, minimal bouncing with 8 plates for 6 reps). I could go heavier, but after deads, that weight sometimes makes my back hurt and I have a spot on my hand that swells a little and hurts.Quote:
Originally Posted by phreezer
Traps are a very strong muscle group and you can go very heavy with them because you are only using one muscle group. It's not like a compound movement where you are limited by the weakest group.
I deadlift over 700 and cannot shrug 700 with any form whatsoever. I can't imagine shrugging that much weight.
That's what I'm saying. I'm a 600 deadlifter and it takes my entire body to pull that and I can't see pulling that much with just my traps. Cheat shrugs or not.
Huh??? this is one of the most idiotic posts I've seen in a long time. You are obviously full of **** and know nothing about training or physiology.Quote:
Originally Posted by Powrlftr
I still dont see how you can shrug 700.
I'm not bragging but i haven't met many people with my trap strength aside from powerlifters (i can upright row 315 ) and i can't come close to shrugging 700. I think if i tried shrugging that much cheating i would fall over and when the weight dropped down it would tear me apart.
I've met lots of powerlifters, some of which who i train with from time to time who can't touch that weight, but can pull a clean 700.
It really made no sense.
How is it possible?
Quote:
Originally Posted by phreezer
Bdtr, have you tried the rack deads? I would like to know what kind of weight you use on those. You can pull more from the rack than from the floor...I certainly do.
(This is in no way arguing the shrug thing...it makes no sense to me either...I am just curious about your use of rack deads.)
Well I have a projected max dead of 630 at a bw of 100kg right now and I easily shrug 7 plates for 15 reps. Maybe you guys use the sumo stance, I use the traditional and that takes more upper back strength. I know a lot of powerlifters that don't work their traps at all and I know some who can shrug a lot of weight.
I hope you guys are doing your shrugs on the power rack and not trying to pick the weight up off the floor :) I really think the limiting factor here is actually being able to unrack the weight, so if you have the safety bars a couple inches below the bottom of you shrug you only have to pull the weight a few inches to the standing position. You are much stronger at the top due to the position of your joints just like you can do partial squats with a lot more weight than you can full squat.
And as far the physiology goes ..... Do pull ups until failure, now just do lat shrugs. Why can you continue doing the lat shrugs if you can't do another pullup? Since the analogous reason I gave you for trap shrugs didn't appeal to you maybe you can give me a better one seeing that you are a kinesiology expert.
Maybe I didn't try hard enough to explain this. I think I did a better job in my last post but I think you may be a little dense so I'll make an extra effort :pQuote:
Originally Posted by phreezer
In a shrugging movement you are only moving one joint a relatively short distance you can move alot of weight. Also the more a joint is bent the more force your muscles need to generate to straighten that joint out since the resultant force vector isn't in the same direction as the normal vector, (the normal force is in the same direction as the force of gravity). This is why you can do more with partial movements than with a full range of motion which puts your joints in a disadvanted position.
You are comparing apples and oranges here. A dead is a dead and a shrug is a shrug. In the deadlift you are using your spinae erectors, hip flexors, and hams to move the weight while your traps are used only secondarily.Quote:
Originally Posted by Power76
I mean ... look at what your traps actually do, and I'm talking strictly about the upper traps here. The insertion is in the shoulder joint and the origin is in the neck. The only movement your upper traps do is raise the shoulder joint up and pull the shoulders back, but the lower traps are really better at doing that.
When you are deadlifting do you think your traps are doing much more than stabilizing you body, or do you pull your shoulders back and shrug them up? I didn't think so .....
All your lower back, hips and legs are doing while performing shrugs is to support the weight and stabilize the body. I just see no correlation between the two movements.
I call bull**** on all of your posts in this thread... Anyone who reads this can see that you are nothing more than a liar. Your entire line of thought is laughable and as such I'm not going to waste my time arguing such idiocy any longer. If you want to claim this outrageous statement, fine... claim it, This is the internet after all, Where we all can kick the crap out of everyone else, we've all had sex with super models, and we've all got 12" dicks.
Take care,
Phreezer
I've never done any of that stuff....how do I get started?:scratch:Quote:
Originally Posted by phreezer
Super models....super units.....I need to get in on this!
Nothing like being closed minded ..... :( I'm not going to waste my time on someone like you. 'My line of thought' is accepted theory, that only makes me wonder about your intellectual abilities, no offense intended.Quote:
Originally Posted by phreezer
I've pulled over 6. There is no way I could shrug that. If you are isolating ur traps with the weight I dont see how you could do it with those numbers. By the way I can shrug over 900 I just use my 12" dong as a stabilizer.
You guys gotta be bs'ing me. You are all trying to tell me you can barely shrug your deadlift weight? I always thought the people who seemed impressed with my shrugs were just weak putzes. I've basically been doing the same weight for shrugs for a few years now. It's just too hard on my back to go any higher.
I guess I should be able to do a leg extension with more weight than I can squat too. :rolleyes:
My, my....... this thread certainly devolved quickly. Actually your trapezious and lats play a large part in deadlifting. Most people dont realize that traps run from the base of your neck to your lumbard region and play a variety of stabilizing functions. you have to have a tremendous back to do any type of exercise.
Hmm .... let's see how I can put this for you ......Quote:
Originally Posted by Power76
When you compare squats to leg extensions you are trying to equate a rotary motion on a machine to a movement with free weights against the force of gravity, and you are working the same muscle groups with these movements. Wouldn't you be better off comparing leg presses to squats, but unfortunately that is also unrelated to the subject we are talking about.
When you do deadlifts do you do a shrugging motion?
When you do shrugs do your hip and knee joints bend?
You barely use your upper trapezius in the same manner in the deadlift as you do in the trap shrug. You may as well be comparing your bench press to your biceps curls. :rolleyes:
You've made a very poor analogy ..... maybe you should try and think these things out before you try to make a snide comment.
But you should be able to lat shrug more weight than you can on a weighted pull up. (This analogy is at least a little better than the one you put forth 'proving' the soundness of your reasoning). :rolleyes:
The only correlation between shrugs and deadlifts is that in order to shrug a weight you have to be able to unrack it and stand with it which requires a certain amount of strength in the deadlift.
I'll agree with you for the most part, but I think more of the stabilization comes from the lower traps depending upon the movement, of course.Quote:
Originally Posted by kdawg21
I think it's much easier for a muscle to stabilize than to move through its full range of motion though.
IVE SEEN 700LB SHRUGS before.....but deadlifts are all legs, azz, and lower back
Pete Sisco had a 1000 pound shrug, its not impossible and thats MUCH more than hes deadlifting.
If your traps aren't bleeding and your upperback isn't dying after a set of deadlifts, then you aren't going heavy enough.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuttup
What constitutes a shrug? I've seen skinny kids push their head down and bounce on their toes with 400 lbs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Makaveli_786
If you are using Sumo style you aren't using as much upper back or traps. Traditional style uses a lot more upper back, but I feel it more in my lower traps. The only time I really feel my upper traps come into play is if I'm holding the weight locked out while I'm catching my breath for another rep.Quote:
Originally Posted by bdtr