8-9-2003 Meet Results

Hey fellas, thought I'd chime in with my deadlift meet results from a couple days ago... I actually made the 242's, thankfully their scale was a little low. It really didn't matter though, since there wasn't anyone else in the Open 242's (unfortunately). And I held the state record for that class going into this meet. I figured I would be holding both the 242 & 275 state records after today. I'm sure I'll be bumped up into the 275's next year.

Anyway, I opened with 730 and smoked it, which won my weight class, broke the existing state record, and earned me best lifter of the meet. However, I didn't know what anyone else was going to be able to pull (because of the way the meet was run<--- this was only relevant for best lifter, not my weight class win), so I was forced to pull my second at 780 and got it easily. It turns out the next highest total was 675, so the 780 definitely was enough to win everything with.

All-in-all, a decent meet in front of about 300 people which was cool. Again, I've got the footage of my 2 attempts on Hi8 analog, so if my brother-in-law ever picks up a Firewire card or if I find anyone who's got an appropriate interface, I can edit and post a couple clips.

Even though you won everything so easily, how come you didn't go for another after 780? Just wondering cuz i know i'd be curious as hell, especially if it was a chance for a PR.

Anyways great pulls, and just wondering, what type of PL program are you using?

That's a really insane pull brotha... congrats on the win! Why didn't you go for the big 8?

HP

I didn't go for 800 because that's only a dime more per side...you won't even feel that. I was also saving myself for another meet Aug. 30th.

BTW, both the 730 and the 780 were PR's at a sanctioned meet. I pulled 730 in my basement 3 weeks ago. From now on my opener will be 750, second 800, third 825-830 (only if needed). If I'm shooting for a national record, then I'll definitely go with a 3rd attempt. But if it's just a state record, then forget it. I'll be happy to be able to walk out instead of having to be carried out, LOL. Plus, I'll be able to get back to training much more quickly since I'll recover faster.

Ah I see now, well good luck at your upcoming meet, what is the natl record for your weight class BTW?

Something thats been buggin me, i was a bit curious to see what type of training you were using because i was wondering if you did speed DL's or not. I'm new to PLing and i couldn't feel the difference when i did em. I'd like to hear your thoughts on those or just DL training in general if you have the time.

Saboudian, most of the natl and intl deadlift records for the 242's are right around 800-830. Both of those #'s are well within my reach right now, with 800 being my 2nd attempt weight. I checked several different federations, with the USPF being the only one out of my reach at this point (because of Ed Coan). But hey, he's the greatest powerlifter of all time. I would actually like to start training for a national raw record soon.

My best deadlift gains have come when I didn't pull...AT ALL. The deadlift is kind of a funny lift compared to the other two because there really isn't an eccentric loading phase. I like Dave Tate's phrase "starting strength" because that's exactly what you need. I don't like to "dive" down on the bar to generate any momentum - I need my biceps tendons, LOL. So, it's all glutes and hams out of the hole. Oddly, even though I sumo, this is my strength. If I fail anywhere, it's the lockout, which is the exact opposite of most sumo pullers.

I credit the majority of my glute/ham strength to training with traditional bodybuilding exercises like stiff leg deads, machine leg curls, DB leg curls, kneeling leg curls, and seated ham curls. Because I don't "dive" and I setup my hips a bit higher than some sumo pullers, I really don't get the crossover glute/ham benefit from squats that some guys get. If you would view my deadlift setup from the side, my legs are actually at about a 1/2 squat depth. I can get away with this because my arm length is at least a couple inches longer than the average 5'11" guy.

What I do get from squats is core strength. And this is absolutely essential. If you lack core strength, your hips and butt bail upward, your chest falls, and you're placed in a bent row position. The best thing you could do at this point would be to drop it and be thankful you can still walk away. I believe that squatting requires more core strength than deadlifting because the weight is actually placed on your body driving you down.

I've built my back with deads and all kinds of machine and free weight rows. However, I feel that I've reached a point (after 8.5 years of training) where the most important thing I can do to bring my back into parity with my lower body & core is through progressive resistance training with chains. I've tried rack pulls and partial deads but I've never felt comfortable doing them. I think it may be the absence of acceleration from the lower body because the lift is initiated at a higher point. Since competition deads are not performed with this ROM, I believe it's more important to condition myself to increase my acceleration through the mid portion of the lift (when bar is right around knees) through full ROM pulls. I am confident this will transfer completely to the competition pull and significantly improve my deadlift totals.

So you've got 3 primary regions that are involved in deadlifting: glute/ham (quad at certain points), core, and back. Identify your strong point(s) and your weakness(es) and orient your training to try to equalize all 3 areas. And I don't mean by not training your strengths either. Keep hammering those locations, but prioritize your weakness(es).

Also, I don't subscribe to the idea of never pulling except in competitions. That doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever. First, if you've packed on some quality mass, you're gonna have to evaluate your suit fit. The only way to do that is to train with it. If you go to a meet and discover that you need a different size, you're out of luck. Second, every deadlift suit will influence your groove differently compared to raw lifting. I made this mistake last year. I trained raw for a meet and had to order a custom suit because the stock suit fought me so hard at the top, I couldn't lock out a weight 50 pounds lighter than my opener. The first time I tried on the new suit was at that meet. I ended up missing my opener because the suit threw me forward just enough at the bottom to throw off my line. I made a mental adjustment, regrouped, and made my opener on my 2nd, but I had already injured myself in the process, even though my technique on the 2nd was very good.

I didn't make that mistake this year. I trained with that custom suit for months prior to this meet. I knew everything about it and exactly how it would react at different stages in a pull. As a result, each attempt went perfectly - just as planned.

Third, I feel it's important to condition your CNS and muscles to get ready for big max effort pulls. Last winter, I spent about 20 weeks and dieted off about 35 pounds. I don't think I deadlifted 5 times during that period of time. I remember thinking after dropping that weight I would never even attempt a 600 lb. pull at this point. Just 4 months later, after training hard, growing some quality LBM, and periodizing my deadlifts, I added 80 pounds to my PR (state record) with my SECOND, not even my third.

So much for a quick reply....fire off any other questions.

All good info, and you are right, Coan is a monster.

So with acceleration being so important, does that mean you beleive in speed DLs?

I've never done any speed DL's in my life. Yet, if you look at my opener @730, it looks like I was shot out of a cannon. The bar came up so fast, someone said it looked like I was taking out the trash, LOL.

Here's what I believe...If I can get my legs strong enough to do reps with, say, 900 pounds on a vertical leg press machine (weight coming straight down on you) or 1100-1200 lbs on the 45 degree, then what's the big deal with doing a single pull at 750-850? Rep'ing that kind of weight (not 5's or 6's, I'm talking 15-20 rest-paused slow, full reps) requires a ton more leg strength than starting a 750-850 lb pull. If you develop that kind of leg strength and consciously apply that kind of force to the initiation of a 750-850 lb. pull, that bar is gonna fly up really quickly.

At this point, my legs are so rediculously strong that I am absolutely positive I could get 900+ moving. I just wouldn't be able to lock it out because my back strength is lagging my legs. Now, certainly, being able to accelerate with my leg/hip strength beyond that weakness would work to an extent, but probably not 80 pounds over my current max.

So I plan to do 2 things to address this weakness. First, I'm going to start doing super heavy rows again to try to bring up my back strength and add a lot of mass. Second, I'm going to buy the WSB chain rig and force my body to learn to accelerate through the top half of the lift. But unlike WSB, I'm not going to stick with low weight on the DE back day. I will use a lot of weight and keep the reps around 5-6. The problem with doing this is that it's so brutal you can't do it very frequently. That's why the traditional bodybuilding exercises are included. Also, there really isn't any need to do any 1 rep max's when you train this way.

I don't necesarily understand your logic goldenear. You have an incredible deadlift, and if you pushed yourself to the limit you would make the all time Top 10 for your weight class. But instead it sounds like you hold back at meets, waiting to see what other people do. You should be competing against yourself... you have an insane deadlift, use it:).

Good luck on increasing your back strength. How much can you squat?

HP

HP, you're somewhat correct with what you say. However, I was saving myself for another meet just a couple weeks later. I was expecting some stronger competition at that meet and that's why I didn't attempt a 3rd. Unfortunately, it appears that the Aug. 30th meet will be canceled, so sure, in hindsight, I obviously wish I had gone for a 3rd at 820.

If everything goes as planned, next year will be my last year as a 242, so I guess that fact will change my perspective. My goal is to add 25-35 lbs. of LBM in the next 3 years which would make me a very large and thick 275'er.

I'm not sure where my squat is since I have been front squatting for the past 2 years. I pretty much topped out at 365 for sets of 8-10, which was crazy heavy. I will probably begin squatting regular again since front squats are so hard on my back.

That's an incredible front squat. Yeah, I suggest you switch up to back squats again, I wanna know what you can squat! I bet it's up there in the 800's with your deadlift. Do you ever do full meets?

HP

I've never done a full meet. I don't even own a bench shirt or a squat suit. The truth is I'm a very advanced lifter, but pretty much a newbie with respect to powerlifting competition.

I'll start working on my squats again. I have been fighting some tendonitis in my left knee for about 4 years and that's part of the reason why I stopped squatting heavy. I might end up getting an MRI to find out exactly what the problem is since it hasn't really improved much.

Goldenear,

First off, there's some incredibly insightful info in your posts..thank you for taking the time to put that all down on screen. Secondly, while my lifts are nowhere near yours, I have the same discrepancy between my dead and squat that you seem to have if I'm understanding your posts correctly. My dead has been into the 5's (though I haven't done it in some time, so I'm not sure if it still is) while I struggle to get a legit competition lift with 365 on squats.

I should mention two things: 1. While 6'3" and maybe some change, my inseam is 30-32, so my legs are quite short for my height and my torso is quite elongated (while getting my one expensive suit, the tailor told me I had the upper length of an NBA player at 6'6" or more)..I'm sure that adversely affects the physics of the squat while also allowing me to deadlift easier. 2. My legs are actually very strong...i'm a religious peformer of glute ham raises and do some good honest reps with over 1000lbs on the leg press. Accordingly, everyone in the gym expects me to squat a shitload...which makes the fact that I can't somewhat troubling and embarassing.

So, after all that, my question to you is what other factor do you think, given your experience, might contribute to a sizable gap between someone's squat and deadlift such as I apparently have?

Well I've never seen you squat so that makes this extremely difficult. But it would seem that someone with a long torso might have a harder time stabilizing his core during the squat because of the extra length.

When you squat, do your legs and butt ever rise (out of the hole) independent of your upper body (especially with maximal weights or when fatigued)? I would be VERY surprised if you answered "no" to this question. Your core is SO important in the squat (even moreso than the deadlift) because it's the region that directly harnesses the power of your lower body.

I don't think I expounded on this in my posts above, but I believe the core strength required to squat 800 pounds is significantly greater than the core strength required to deadlift 800 pounds. The fact that the weight is on top of you, the position of the bar, etc. all contribute to this difference.

That's where I would begin...