tren+nolva

[scribbs12]

I read on here a few years back that you are not suppose to use nolva with tren ? because it will cause more gyno?.. im looking into trying tren for my first time in the near future and usually i take 10mg a day of nolva throughout my whole cycle of whatever im taking.. usually a test base cycle.. because i am gyno prone. can anyone shine some light on that for me?? i can switch to aromasin but it just more pricey for me.. thanks in advance.

[freakinhuge]

You should look into getting some liquid prami, prami would be better for tren prolactin gyno.

[Big]

I've heard many times how nolva increases the chances of progesterone induced gyno when using 19nors, then decided to do some research myself and couldn't find sufficient studies to back it up. I'd be interested to see any that people could post. Perhaps swifto could chime in he's far more educated on the subject than I am.

[Matt]

I've heard many times how nolva increases the chances of progesterone induced gyno when using 19nors, then decided to do some research myself and couldn't find sufficient studies to back it up. I'd be interested to see any that people could post. Perhaps swifto could chime in he's far more educated on the subject than I am.

Ive spoken to Swifto about this and seen a number of his posts on the subject and i think its safe to say he too believes its its well exaggerated..

[Swifto]

Tamoxifen is a mixed ER agonist/antagonist.

In some tissues, such as the endometrium (uterus), upregulation of the PgR would be expected, as the endometrium is very sensitive to estrogen. This is where there is confusion.

In other tissues, such as the breast, Tamoxifen is an antagonist (blocks the ER). The progesterone receptor is synthesized in response to estrogen. So when the ER is blocked (in breast tissue), the progesterone receptor will also down regulate. This does not happen in cancer patients but does in healthy, normal subjects.

I hope that clears the confusion becuase you will NOT find a study stating Tamoxifen up regulates the progesterone receptor in healthy breast tissue anywhere.

The studies showing upregulation are on cancer patients and they differ from normal, healthy subjects.

Therefore, Tamoxifen will help reduce gyno when using Tren or Deca , not make it worse.

[Swifto]

This is exactly right....

I see that priapis posted several studies attempting to support his claim that tamoxifen (nolva) upregulates the progesterone receptor (PgR) in breast tissue. The first two studies he posted looked at cancerous breast tumors (i.e. not normal breast tissue). The next two studies he posted (here and here) looked at the effect in endometrial tissue (the uterus).

First, let's address the latter, endometrial tissue: I've talked about that here. The gist is that it's no surprise tamoxifen upregulates the PgR in the uterus, where 1) there is high sensitivity to estrogen and *especially* where 2) tamoxifen is known to act as an estrogen receptor agonist (acting like estrogen, not blocking it). This is not the case in normal breast tissue. I argue that Eric Potratz is an idiot (and he is) for extrapolating from endometrial tissue in women to healthy breast tissue in men, without even mentioning (or being aware of) the differential tissue effects. He's misleading people about the dangers of tamoxifen so he can sell a competing product.

Second, let's address the effects in breast cancer tissue: My position is that the effect on PgR expression is not uniform, though there is often a statistically significant increase. If we look at the full text of the first study that priapi posted, we see in table 2 that 24% the tamoxifen group had down-regulation of the PgR, 26% had no change, and 50% showed up-regulation. In contrast, this study found what they described as "a modest decline" in PgR levels in all three histologies they tested with tamoxifen treatment, though it failed to achieve statistical significance (p values of .19, .82, and .15).

But most importantly, what do we see in normal, healthy breast tissue? Before I address that, note that earlier in this thread priapis said that I have "an unsupported/undocumented opinion that contradicts science, based on an incorrect reading of some other guys article." He says that the studies above (in cancer tissue and endometrial tissue) "and many more" show that my opinion is incorrect. He ends his post arguing that "the fact of upregulation in BREAST TISSUE is so well established..."

priapis couldn't be more wrong. He fails to understand that there is a significant difference between cancerous breast tumors and normal breast tissue. This study looked at ER and PgR expression in normal breast tissue (i.e. not cancer tissue) in tamoxifen treated women. They found that tamoxifen "shows no stimulatory activity on either PgR levels, a well known oestrogen regulated protein... or the important parameter of cell proliferation (Figure 2)." "In conclusion, the data presented do not show any adverse effects of tamoxifen on normal breast tissue."

This finding was confirmed in the most extensive study that I've seen looking at the effects of tamoxifen in normal breast tissuenormal breast tissue:


These results in normal breast tissue are in perfect accordance with my statement that "There is no evidence showing that tamoxifen upregulates the progesterone receptor in the breast (which is what the worry is all about). It shows it does the opposite." priapis is demonstrating his ignorance when he says that this statement "contradicts science." In fact, it's based on the science (and the most relevant science at that).

I stand by my argument that "Nolvadex will not make progesterone related gyno worse. It will help prevent it." (Unless, of course, your breast tissue is a uterus or a cancer )

-Conciliator

Subject CLOSED.

[BigIce]

Bravo

[scribbs12]

i know i posted this a while ago, but i havent been on.. i just wanted to say thank you for helping me out.

[Gaspari1255]

We should bump this more often. Great info. I cannot tell you how many times I have heard "Do not run Nolva with a 19-nor" and then when I question it, no one can really justify their answer.

[lovbyts]

Tamoxifen is a mixed ER agonist/antagonist.

In some tissues, such as the endometrium (uterus), upregulation of the PgR would be expected, as the endometrium is very sensitive to estrogen. This is where there is confusion.

In other tissues, such as the breast, Tamoxifen is an antagonist (blocks the ER). The progesterone receptor is synthesized in response to estrogen. So when the ER is blocked (in breast tissue), the progesterone receptor will also down regulate. This does not happen in cancer patients but does in healthy, normal subjects.

I hope that clears the confusion becuase you will NOT find a study stating Tamoxifen up regulates the progesterone receptor in healthy breast tissue anywhere.

The studies showing upregulation are on cancer patients and they differ from normal, healthy subjects.

Therefore, Tamoxifen will help reduce gyno when using Tren or Deca, not make it worse.

OK so if you take Nolva on cycle to help fight Gyno and you end up getting gyno or making it worse it means you have Cancer?

Sorry I couldn't resist with the reverse logic.

[bezzy]

Tamoxifen is a mixed ER agonist/antagonist.

In some tissues, such as the endometrium (uterus), upregulation of the PgR would be expected, as the endometrium is very sensitive to estrogen. This is where there is confusion.

In other tissues, such as the breast, Tamoxifen is an antagonist (blocks the ER). The progesterone receptor is synthesized in response to estrogen. So when the ER is blocked (in breast tissue), the progesterone receptor will also down regulate. This does not happen in cancer patients but does in healthy, normal subjects.

I hope that clears the confusion becuase you will NOT find a study stating Tamoxifen up regulates the progesterone receptor in healthy breast tissue anywhere.

The studies showing upregulation are on cancer patients and they differ from normal, healthy subjects.

Therefore, Tamoxifen will help reduce gyno when using Tren or Deca, not make it worse.

thanks for this something iv been concerned about since readin a article 2 week ago

[Neevor]

OK so if you take Nolva on cycle to help fight Gyno and you end up getting gyno or making it worse it means you have Cancer?

Sorry I couldn't resist with the reverse logic.

Ooooooor... its due to prolactin. Better start Caber and kemotherapy just to be safe..

Awesome post Swito! I was arguing this in a thread just the other day. I'm savin this to point to when the topic inevitably comes up again. Love the detail on the difference in Nolvas effects on different tissues..