Calories in, calories out. But not quite...

**gbrice75** · 11-23-2010, 12:59 PM

This may be obvious to alot of you, but for new members who don't really know the ropes of dieting, and who don't understand caloric balance, this might be handy.

We can all agree on what TDEE is. This is your maintenance calories. If you eat at your TDEE (let's use 2500 calories as an example), you should neither gain nor lose weight. Based on your goals, you either eat above or below, depending on whether you are bulking or cutting.

What I want to specifically address is huge caloric deficits via diet vs. other methods to create the deficit, namely cardio. I have seen too many recent diets posted where the deficit was too great, some over 1000 calories below maintenance.

Let's take our example of a 2500 calorie TDEE. You can eat 2000 calories/day and you have effectively cut 500 calories from your diet. That's great for people who aren't concerned with how their bodies look, and are just interested in 'losing weight'. WE in this game are interested in burning bodyfat, and preserving LBM as much as possible while on a cut. IMO, there is a better way...

Less deficit via diet, more via cardio. In this example, let's only drop our calories by 100, so we're now eating 2400 calories/day. Not a huge deficit at all, and wouldn't do much alone - it would take forever to lose any appreciable amount of bodyfat. However, when you introduce cardio, the game changes. I believe you can use cardio to create an even BIGGER deficit then our original example, yet burn more bodyfat AND preserve more LBM. Why? Well first, you have to make sure the cardio is optimized for burning bodyfat. You cannot run for a half hour at 8.0 on the treadmill and expect great results. You will undoubtedly burn LBM, as well as some bodyfat. But moderate intensity cardio with some high intensity intervals thrown in (not to be confused with true HIIT, see Baseline's thread on this), you can make your body very efficient at burning bodyfat while preserving LBM.

Remember that you are still eating very close to maintenance, so your body is getting the nutrients and fuel it needs to function optimally. This keeps your metabolism fired up, keeps your body in a constant state of processing, and with the added cardio, that gets magnified even more. In our first example, you were not only cutting calories, but think of it as fuel as a whole - including all of the vital nutrients. You were robbing your body, essentially taking the 'easy' way out. Add the same cardio routine in the example above to an already large caloric deficit, and you are just asking your body to torch LBM.

So IMO, a small deficit (or even eating AT maintenance) with optimized cardio > larger deficit. In short, rely on cardio over calorie restriction. This isn't weight watcher's guys!

**ghettoboyd** · 11-23-2010, 01:31 PM

nice post bro....thats how ive been approching diet/cutting as of late and its working slowly and steady...ind i think im maintaining if not gaining lbm...

**SergeantCarbs** · 11-23-2010, 01:34 PM

Great post GB & I fully agree. I also think most people though have a tendency of under estimating what they actually ate for the day and although they think they may be a 1k deficit it is probably much closer to there maintenance intake or just under - unless of course there tally is completly accurate.

**bigslick7878** · 11-23-2010, 01:51 PM

Agree 1000% Gbrice!!!

Let the cardio make up the deficit, not lack of food.

I would rather see someone at maintenance or a little higher with a lot of cardio rather than 500 below and minimal/moderate cardio.

**scotty51312** · 11-23-2010, 02:04 PM

GB you mean i can't loose weight if i eat whatever i want and take a multivitamin and lay in a tanning bed? It gets hot in there, thats gotta burn at least a pound of fat right?

Just wanted to throw in some sarcasm

**FirstTimeRage** · 11-23-2010, 02:25 PM

GTL bro GTL

**baseline_9** · 11-23-2010, 03:08 PM

GB has got this rite IMO

When i cut in Jan, my calories will begin at around 3500 which will be plenty over my TDEE

However I will be doing 90mins of cardio a day

**Sgt. Hartman** · 11-23-2010, 04:14 PM

Great post. Agree 100%.

The problem is that most of us (especially myself) are impatient and when cutting want to see the number on the scale go down as quick as possible.

**gbrice75** · 11-23-2010, 05:36 PM

Originally Posted by SergeantCarbs

Great post GB & I fully agree. I also think most people though have a tendency of under estimating what they actually ate for the day and although they think they may be a 1k deficit it is probably much closer to there maintenance intake or just under - unless of course there tally is completly accurate.

True, and this is why I always advise people to be very meticulous with counting macros and calories. Even with the greatest of diligence, macros will STILL be off, so we need to be very accurate to even come close to what we think we're getting!

Originally Posted by bigslick7878

Agree 1000% Gbrice!!!

Let the cardio make up the deficit, not lack of food.

I would rather see someone at maintenance or a little higher with a lot of cardio rather than 500 below and minimal/moderate cardio.

Exactly!

Originally Posted by scotty51312

GB you mean i can't loose weight if i eat whatever i want and take a multivitamin and lay in a tanning bed? It gets hot in there, thats gotta burn at least a pound of fat right?

Just wanted to throw in some sarcasm

LoL Scotty! For you, this just might work!

Originally Posted by baseline_9

GB has got this rite IMO

When i cut in Jan, my calories will begin at around 3500 which will be plenty over my TDEE

However I will be doing 90mins of cardio a day

Good point Base. Maybe it's obvious based on the info, but I should have pointed out that with the right cardio program in place, one can eat OVER TDEE and shed the bodyfat. That will almost guarantee preservation of LBM... POSSIBLY (that's a big possibly) even adding a little in some cases.

Originally Posted by Sgt. Hartman

Great post. Agree 100%.

The problem is that most of us (especially myself) are impatient and when cutting want to see the number on the scale go down as quick as possible.

True. And then we wind up throwing ourselves into starvation mode, and not only hording existing bodyfat while losing LBM, but storing NEW fat from dietary fats.

Originally Posted by ghettoboyd

nice post bro....thats how ive been approching diet/cutting as of late and its working slowly and steady...ind i think im maintaining if not gaining lbm...

Thanks Ghetto... glad to hear this is working out for you! I agree that it's possible to gain LBM with this approach really dialed in.

**bigslick7878** · 11-23-2010, 05:52 PM

You know it is funny you brought this topic up, because I have been bouncing this theory around in my head for the past few weeks tweaking my diet and cardio schedule. I came to the same conclusion you did pretty much, and thought that it would be much more beneficial to go the "more food more cardio" route.

In a perfect world I think 1000 over maintenance, 90 min of am cardio everyday and weights 4-5 times a week would be great. Now, that is 1) very time consuming and 2)much more expensive so that makes it a little hard to do for a lot of people. But if you really want to buckle down and go hard core for a while that is what I would do. I think the results would be amazing.

I got a cycle planned for the spring where I am going to try to stick to that plan, can't wait.

**SergeantCarbs** · 11-23-2010, 06:09 PM

Just personal opinion but I think that much cardio would be catabolic.

**bigslick7878** · 11-23-2010, 06:38 PM

Originally Posted by SergeantCarbs

Just personal opinion but I think that much cardio would be catabolic.

I averaged 350 min a week last time I cut, but was on a PH cycle at the time that made it possible.(I was eating at maintenance though not 1000 over)

But 90 min x7 is definitely a little excessive, cut it back to 60-90 x 4-5 days......

***D7M*** · 11-23-2010, 07:35 PM

Originally Posted by gbrice75

This may be obvious to alot of you, but for new members who don't really know the ropes of dieting, and who don't understand caloric balance, this might be handy.

We can all agree on what TDEE is. This is your maintenance calories. If you eat at your TDEE (let's use 2500 calories as an example), you should neither gain nor lose weight. Based on your goals, you either eat above or below, depending on whether you are bulking or cutting.

What I want to specifically address is huge caloric deficits via diet vs. other methods to create the deficit, namely cardio. I have seen too many recent diets posted where the deficit was too great, some over 1000 calories below maintenance.

Let's take our example of a 2500 calorie TDEE. You can eat 2000 calories/day and you have effectively cut 500 calories from your diet. That's great for people who aren't concerned with how their bodies look, and are just interested in 'losing weight'. WE in this game are interested in burning bodyfat, and preserving LBM as much as possible while on a cut. IMO, there is a better way...

Less deficit via diet, more via cardio. In this example, let's only drop our calories by 100, so we're now eating 2400 calories/day. Not a huge deficit at all, and wouldn't do much alone - it would take forever to lose any appreciable amount of bodyfat. However, when you introduce cardio, the game changes. I believe you can use cardio to create an even BIGGER deficit then our original example, yet burn more bodyfat AND preserve more LBM. Why? Well first, you have to make sure the cardio is optimized for burning bodyfat. You cannot run for a half hour at 8.0 on the treadmill and expect great results. You will undoubtedly burn LBM, as well as some bodyfat. But moderate intensity cardio with some high intensity intervals thrown in (not to be confused with true HIIT, see Baseline's thread on this), you can make your body very efficient at burning bodyfat while preserving LBM.

Remember that you are still eating very close to maintenance, so your body is getting the nutrients and fuel it needs to function optimally. This keeps your metabolism fired up, keeps your body in a constant state of processing, and with the added cardio, that gets magnified even more. In our first example, you were not only cutting calories, but think of it as fuel as a whole - including all of the vital nutrients. You were robbing your body, essentially taking the 'easy' way out. Add the same cardio routine in the example above to an already large caloric deficit, and you are just asking your body to torch LBM.

So IMO, a small deficit (or even eating AT maintenance) with optimized cardio > larger deficit. In short, rely on cardio over calorie restriction. This isn't weight watcher's guys!

Completely agree...nice post, G.

**gbrice75** · 11-24-2010, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by D7M

Completely agree...nice post, G.

Thanks D!

**tbody66** · 11-24-2010, 10:52 PM

It is a nice post, I am changing my diet and exercise program up next week too, gonna use some of your wonderful logic GB.

Thanks for being here and doing all you do!

**gbrice75** · 11-25-2010, 09:34 AM

Originally Posted by tbody66

It is a nice post, I am changing my diet and exercise program up next week too, gonna use some of your wonderful logic GB.

Thanks for being here and doing all you do!

I do it all for you T

**canEHdian** · 11-25-2010, 09:40 AM

great post, probably explains why im feeling so fatigued, gonna add a few hundred calories to make up for all the extra cardio lately, no sense in losing lbm to lose fat!

**Twist** · 11-25-2010, 03:41 PM

Originally Posted by gbrice75

This may be obvious to alot of you, but for new members who don't really know the ropes of dieting, and who don't understand caloric balance, this might be handy.

We can all agree on what TDEE is. This is your maintenance calories. If you eat at your TDEE (let's use 2500 calories as an example), you should neither gain nor lose weight. Based on your goals, you either eat above or below, depending on whether you are bulking or cutting.

What I want to specifically address is huge caloric deficits via diet vs. other methods to create the deficit, namely cardio. I have seen too many recent diets posted where the deficit was too great, some over 1000 calories below maintenance.

Let's take our example of a 2500 calorie TDEE. You can eat 2000 calories/day and you have effectively cut 500 calories from your diet. That's great for people who aren't concerned with how their bodies look, and are just interested in 'losing weight'. WE in this game are interested in burning bodyfat, and preserving LBM as much as possible while on a cut. IMO, there is a better way...

Less deficit via diet, more via cardio. In this example, let's only drop our calories by 100, so we're now eating 2400 calories/day. Not a huge deficit at all, and wouldn't do much alone - it would take forever to lose any appreciable amount of bodyfat. However, when you introduce cardio, the game changes. I believe you can use cardio to create an even BIGGER deficit then our original example, yet burn more bodyfat AND preserve more LBM. Why? Well first, you have to make sure the cardio is optimized for burning bodyfat. You cannot run for a half hour at 8.0 on the treadmill and expect great results. You will undoubtedly burn LBM, as well as some bodyfat. But moderate intensity cardio with some high intensity intervals thrown in (not to be confused with true HIIT, see Baseline's thread on this), you can make your body very efficient at burning bodyfat while preserving LBM.

Remember that you are still eating very close to maintenance, so your body is getting the nutrients and fuel it needs to function optimally. This keeps your metabolism fired up, keeps your body in a constant state of processing, and with the added cardio, that gets magnified even more. In our first example, you were not only cutting calories, but think of it as fuel as a whole - including all of the vital nutrients. You were robbing your body, essentially taking the 'easy' way out. Add the same cardio routine in the example above to an already large caloric deficit, and you are just asking your body to torch LBM.

So IMO, a small deficit (or even eating AT maintenance) with optimized cardio > larger deficit. In short, rely on cardio over calorie restriction. This isn't weight watcher's guys!

Great post GB.