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  1. #1
    Atomini's Avatar
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    Atomini's thread on ESTERS: What they are, how they are formed, and their purpose!

    ESTERS: What they are, how they are formed, and their purpose


    This thread was a long time coming, and by all means I should have put this up before my trenbolone thread. Reason why this has taken so long is because I was waiting for admin to increase the direct-linked image limit on the forum to more than 5. I don't think he was able to do that, so i'm posting this now. Now, we already have threads on esters and their release times they grant different anabolic steroids , and information on how esters affect our cycles in the long run. The purpose of this thread is to educate people down to the chemistry of what an ester exactly is and how it is formed.

    But what is an ester? This is the question a lot of confused people tend to ask, especially by those who have no background in chemistry or those who have forgotten their basic highschool chemistry. And that's understandable! I have run into people on this forum who thought that esters were somehow these separate 'things' that were added to solutions to act as 'vehicles' for the anabolic steroids to do their job in the body. Obviously, this is a very wrong understanding of the subject at hand, and I felt the need to just give people a general refresher on basic chemistry and how these things work in order to correct this.

    The origins of this thread started in a thread a while ago where I stated that long esters hold a far heavier molecular weight than short estered steroids. Therefore, on a mg for mg basis, you are getting far more mg of steroid in a short estered compound vs a large estered compound. For example, you are getting far more mg of testosterone in 600mg of test prop than 600mg of test enanthate . This is because of the shorter lighter weight to the propionate ester compared to the large heavy enanthate ester. You actually are getting MORE steroid in any given concentration of propionate than enanthate. I'll now explain why, and through this explanation you will also gain the understanding behind what an ester is and how these things work.

    Unfortunately there will be no cited references for these things, because this is basic chemistry knowledge. Trust me, it is VERY BASIC chemistry. You can do the math yourself even if the last chemistry you did was in high school. The only reference I can site for you if you'd like to confirm all of this knowledge is to simply pick up any highschool chemistry textbook, it's all in there.

    Now, here begins the small chemistry lesson and i've even taken the time here to photoshop pictures of chemical structures for you so that you may understand better. I'm also going to copy and paste direct from some of my older chemistry notes from school, since I have all the descriptions right here ready to go of what an ester bond is and how it is formed. The first thing to understand is that Testosterone is not an independant ingredient when it is colloquially known as 'Testosterone Enanthate ', or 'Testosterone Propionate '. Now the lesson shall begin:

    Here is your basic bare-bones testosterone molecule:



    What you have here is testosterone without an ester bonded to the molecule. Lets focus on testosterone propionate here in order to put this in perspective for you. Testosterone itself is a lipid (a fat), as it is cholesterol based. Its sterane structure makes it a fat (all steroid hormones are really fats), and this is why anabolic steroids work in the manner they do, by diffusing through the phospholipid bilayer membrane of the target cells. They are fat-soluble, so they can do this with ease. In comparison, protein hormones cannot do this as they are proteins, and not fats. Protein is not fat-soluble.

    Now, here's a little refresher on lipids in general for you, copypasted straight from my chem notes:

    Fats and oils are made by attaching fatty acids to a glycerol molecule. The glycerol molecule - see page 16 in written notes. Glycerol molecules can react with the carboxylic acid part of up to 3 fatty acids producing up to 3 water molecules and either a fat or an oil molecule – see page 16 in written notes and page 52 in textbook. The resulting fat or oil molecule is called a triglyceride. Whether the fat or oil is solid or liquid in room temperature depends on whether or not the fatty acids in the triglyceride are polyunsaturated or a saturated. If the fatty acids are saturated, then it’s most likely a solid. If they are polyunsaturated, then it’s most likely a liquid. The shorter the chain lengths, the less the attraction between molecules, so therefore the smaller the chain then the more likely it’s an oil and the larger the chain, the more likely it’s a fat.



    Alright, that's the basic low-down on fats. Now, here is where the ester bonding comes into play. Again, more from my chem notes:

    Whenever an alcohol-containing molecule reacts with a carboxylic acid-containing molecule such as a fatty acid reacting with glycerol, water molecules (H2O) are always produced and the bond between the newly united molecules is called an ester linkage (or, ester bond) and the process is called esterification (see page 40 in Arms & Camp textbook). The result is a molecule called a triglyceride.

    Diagram of the esterification process:



    (3) Phospholipids

    Phospholipids are similar to triglycerides in that fatty acids are esterifying but the difference is that one of the alcohol groups is esterifying to a phosphate group (see page 40 in Arms & Camp textbook.)




    Alright, thats the basics on ester bonding. Now, back to testosterone propionate.... i've already posted a picture of the chemical strucutre of bare bones testosterone with no ester attached to it. Now, allow me to introduce you to our friend here, called Propionic Acid:

    Atomini's thread on ESTERS: What they are, how they are formed, and their purpose!-proprk.jpg

    As you can see, its a very small molecule. I will now explain where the typical bonding area is when it esterifies (bonds) to other molecules (in this case, testosterone). So, what happens in a lab is a chemical reaction is produced whereby the propionic acid loses its OH group, and an H comes off the testosterone. The OH from the propionic acid, and the H from the testosterone bond to form H2O, and leave the molecule as such. Now, you have a newly formed chemical compound: TESTOSTERONE PROPIONATE.

    Scroll up and take a look at the bare-bones testosterone picture. Now compare it with this, testosterone propionate:

    Atomini's thread on ESTERS: What they are, how they are formed, and their purpose!-testprop.jpg

    Here, in case you haven't noticed, I took the liberty of outlining the area on the molecule that has now changed (or rather, an addition):

    Atomini's thread on ESTERS: What they are, how they are formed, and their purpose!-testpropoutlined.jpg

    See where the OH is gone from the Propionic Acid? And how it is now bonded to testosterone? Once again, this forms Testosterone Propionate. It is no longer testosterone - peroid.

    Here is a further 3D-ish picture of a Testosterone Propionate molecule I built out of my organic chemistry set (I originally posted this in a thread from a loooong time ago, here: http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...ight=chemistry )

    Bare-bones testosterone:
    Atomini's thread on ESTERS: What they are, how they are formed, and their purpose!-chemmodelkw1.jpg

    Testosterone Propionate:
    Atomini's thread on ESTERS: What they are, how they are formed, and their purpose!-testprop2.jpg

    See the propionate attached to it?

    What this esterification process does is enable the main compound (testosterone) to be released at slower rates in the body than if testosterone was un-estered to anything. Your body now has to send the anabolic steroid to the liver and use enzymes to cleave off that ester so that testosterone is in its bare-bones form again (which is the only form it can actually do its job and be used by the body). This is also THE reason why there is no such thing as site-specific growth except for AAS like testosterone suspension . Test suspension is simply un-esterified testosterone suspended in water. All esterified anabolic steroids must be processed by enzymes before they can be in their useable form. The longer the bigger the ester is, the longer it takes the body to cleave the ester off (hence the longer release times for esters like enanthate, undecanoate, etc.)

    Alright, so the chemistry lesson is over. What does all this mean and how does it refer to the mg/ml stuff I was talking about earlier? Well, it's pretty simple at this point in case you haven't figured it out... the propionic acid has a particular molecular weight to it.... and testosterone has a particular molecular weight..

    So at this point, its basic grade 2 math. You take the molecular weight of propionic acid and use this nifty little function on your calculator: + and punch in the molecular weight of bare-bones testosterone. Now you have the molecular weight of testosterone propionate. Now, it stands to reason that if you have a longer heavier ester attached to testosterone, your weight measurements of pure testosterone will become fudged because you now need to factor in the weight of the ester, because remember: testosterone is no longer testosterone when you have enanthate attached. It is now testosterone enanthate.

    So, just a quick little re-cap:

    Bare-bones Testosterone:

    Atomini's thread on ESTERS: What they are, how they are formed, and their purpose!-testgll.jpg

    Testosterone Propionate:

    Atomini's thread on ESTERS: What they are, how they are formed, and their purpose!-testprop2.jpg

    Testosterone + Propionic Acid = Testosterone Propionate .

    Esters such as Propionate, Enanthate , Undecanoate, Acetate, etc. etc. etc. are literally bonded to the hormone in question to create, essentially, a new molecule. As such, the weight of the ester must be taken into account. You are NOT getting 100mg of testosterone when you are injecting testosterone propionate into yourself. You are getting slightly less mg of testosterone than you think. And the larger the ester is (such as enanthate or undecanoate), the far less testosterone (or whatever hormone is bonded to the ester) you are getting out of the total mg.

    Once the enzymes in your body cleave off the propionate ester from testosterone propionate, you are left with pure testosterone. The weight of the molecule now weighs less as pure testosterone compared to when it was testosterone propionate. Therefore, you are now left with far less testosterone in your body than you originally thought.

    And, just to end off, lets compare the actual chemical structures of proionic acid to that of enanthic acid:

    Enanthic acid
    Atomini's thread on ESTERS: What they are, how they are formed, and their purpose!-200px-heptanoic_acid.png

    Scroll up and take a look at propionic acid again (I cannot attach any more pics to this post - 8 max). Do you see the difference in how many more carbons enanthic acid has? This makes it much larger, and will require much more time for the body to cleave that ester off the testosterone molecule than for propionate. This is why you have vastly different half-life times for steroids bonded with enanthate compared to propionate.

    Enanthate half life: approx 7-10 days

    Propionate half life: approx 2 days

    A general example description of how much weight (in percentage) of a total mg weight is taken up by a given ester


    The chemistry lesson continues!

    I will give a brief explanation on what moles (mol) are in the chemistry world so that you understand what's going on here. The Mole is a unit of measurement in chemistry, where things are so tiny and small and where chemical reactions often take place at a level where using grams doesn't work or doesn't make sense. Now, this may sound like ancient Greek to you, you won't understand this at all, but the proper official defition of mole is this: A mole is the quantity of anything (testosterone, H20, carbon dioxide, cyanide, proteins, hydrogen ions, etc.) that has the same number of particles found in 12.000 grams of pure carbon-12 isotope. Now, this 'quantity' (the number of molecules of whatever we're discussing) is literally the exact same number for everything. And this number is... 6.023 X 10^23 (can also be expressed like this: 0.00000000000000000000006023. This number was originally discovered by the great chemist Amedeo Avogadro. This is also why the number is also known as 'Avogadro's number'. The number of molecules in a mole (known as Avogadro's number) is defined so that the mass of one mole of a substance, expressed in grams, is exactly equal to the substance's mean molecular weight. For example, the mean molecular weight of natural water is about 18.015, so one mole of water is about 18.015 grams. This property considerably simplifies many chemical and physical computations.

    So, we want to find out what % of a total mg weight in testosterone propionate is taken up by propionate. As such, we are going to continue using Testosterone Propionate as our example.

    Lets find the molar mass of testosterone. Instead of pulling out the periodic table, and adding up the mass of all the carbon atoms, hydrogen atoms, etc. etc. in the testosterone molecule (because that would take too long), I am just going to pull it off wikipedia. Wikipedia tells me the molar mass of bare bones testosterone is: 288.42g/mol. Now, lets grab the molar mass of Propionic Acid: 74.0g/mol. We want the total molar mass of Testosterone Propionate, so we are going to add 288.42 and 74.0 together, which gives us 362.42g/mol as the molar mass of Testosterone Propionate.

    So, what now? Well, I originally thought that we would have to convert g/mol into mg/ml but now that i'm right in the middle of doing this, I realize this is not necessary. All I would be doing is an extra complicated step that doesn't really help us find anything out, so we can just skip that. All we need to do is find out the percentage of weight that propionate occupies out of the whole 263.42g/mol, and then we can easily just apply that to any given mg/ml. All I need to do is divide the base weight (288.42 for test) by the ester and the base weight for a percentage. So, lets find this out:

    288.42 / 362.42 = 0.795817007

    Now lets convert this into a percentage: 0.795817007 X 100 = 80% (rounded off)

    So, basically... 80% of the total weight was taken up by testosterone, leaving us with 20% of the molecular weight taken up by propionate. Now, we can easily do this with mg. Lets take a look at 100mg of test prop (you don't even need to do the math for this since it is very simple, but here it is anyways):

    0.20 X 100mg = 20mg of propionate

    100mg - 20mg = 80mg bare-bones testosterone left over in 100mg of test prop

    Lets take a look at Testosterone Enanthate for a change. Testosterone: 288.42g/mol. Enanthic Acid: 130.18g/mol. Testosterone Enanthate: 288.42 + 130.18 = 418.6g/mol.

    288.42 / 418.6 = 0.689010989

    Convert to percentage: 0.689010989 X 100 = 69% (rounded off)

    So, lets take a look at how much bare-bones testosterone you're left with in 500mg of Testosterone Enanthate.

    0.69 X 500mg = 345mg testosterone is what you're left with in 500mg of testosterone enanthate

    345mg - 500mg = 155mg of enanthate ester is what occupies that 500mg of testosterone enanthate

    I hope this has broadened your understanding of what exactly an ester is, how it is formed, and how it affects total mg of substance! Here is some further reading for you on the understanding of ester half lives, and active life: http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...-and-Half-Life

  2. #2
    kelkel's Avatar
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    Great post! Read it twice and will probably read it again tomorrow to make sure it sinks in. My memories half-life is not what it used to be!

    Thanks Atomini!

  3. #3
    Capebuffalo's Avatar
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    Holy crap. Are those your thumbs in the photos or your lab assistant? Damn son your a shoe in for the $100 next month. Great job. Keep it coming.

  4. #4
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    Great read and Thank you for sharing! I'll be reading this multiple times as well. First thing I read after waking up and it's beginning to make my brain throb haha.

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    Nice post Atomini..

    Everyone can use a little refresher on occasion and this write-up is gold for new members.

  6. #6
    Atomini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capebuffalo View Post
    Holy crap. Are those your thumbs in the photos or your lab assistant? Damn son your a shoe in for the $100 next month. Great job. Keep it coming.
    That would be my hand in the pictures. Yes, I have large hands. But i've seen people with bigger lol.

  7. #7
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    No my reason for asking that was to see if you actually built a molecular model for this. I now know yes you did. You gotta be pre-med?

  8. #8
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    Great info Atomini, always on point!! We all appreciate it!!

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    Atomini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capebuffalo View Post
    No my reason for asking that was to see if you actually built a molecular model for this. I now know yes you did. You gotta be pre-med?
    You bet!

    I've got all kinds of other constructed molecules I made in the past, sitting in the corner collecting dust.

  10. #10
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    I'm currently on trt and I do test cyp shots. But the new doctor I'm seeing for monitoring is trying to convince me to switch to a gel/Cream because she says its more "bioidentical". she said that long term injections will cause the esters that get cleaved off to eventually build up and be toxic. Does that actually happpen or is shhe just talking out of her ass. It was my understanding that the only difference was the ester. It was my understanding that test cyp is bioidentical once the ester is cleaved off. I asked her about this and she said it wasn't. Wtf? I really don't want to switch to a gel.

  11. #11
    Atomini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jacobk91 View Post
    I'm currently on trt and I do test cyp shots. But the new doctor I'm seeing for monitoring is trying to convince me to switch to a gel/Cream because she says its more "bioidentical". she said that long term injections will cause the esters that get cleaved off to eventually build up and be toxic. Does that actually happpen or is shhe just talking out of her ass. It was my understanding that the only difference was the ester. It was my understanding that test cyp is bioidentical once the ester is cleaved off. I asked her about this and she said it wasn't. Wtf? I really don't want to switch to a gel.
    It sounds to me like she's talking out of her ass... esters are not toxic. Of course, it is well known that any metabolic reaction in the body produces waste material and oxidation. But unless this is happening at an extremely fast uncontrollable rate so much so that the body cannot keep up, it is not usually an issue. There have been no reports in any clinical settings that esterified anabolics cause toxicity issues when enzymes break the ester bonds, and no evidence otherwise to suggest such a thing...

    Is your doctor a GP or a specialist? If she's a GP, the chances are far higher that she's talking out of her ass, she doesn't know...

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    jacobk91 is offline Junior Member
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    She's a nd, (naturopath). I'm seeing her because my insurance covers her and all the test she prescribes me. She's the best I got atm that's why I do my own research and never take anything a doctor says at face value. She's actually the best of the three trt doctors that I've had. That tells you a lot about the first two lol.

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    Well, I don't understand her reasoning behind what she's saying. It sounds like she's lacking knowledge in this particular arena.

    Her idea of prescribing you a topical gel/cream solution is a little crazy because those have a MUCH higher rate of aromatization. More of the test will be aromatized into estrogen, because when you rub that stuff on it has to seep through your skin, and then through your subcutaneous fat. The problem here lies in the fact that aromatase activity is like a hornets nest in fat tissue. Fat tissue is the greatest peripheral source of aromatase. Hence why creams will cause higher estrogen conversion.

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    jacobk91 is offline Junior Member
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    She advertises as a bioidentical hrt specialist, she mostly works with women though. And I Am going to tell her I don't want a gel. Its easier to do one or two shots a week versus rubbing gel in every morning.

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    warmouth is offline Productive Member
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    I am blown away by this!

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    awesome thread man thanks for all the info!! ive read it 3 times

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    Quote Originally Posted by Atomini View Post
    Well, I don't understand her reasoning behind what she's saying. It sounds like she's lacking knowledge in this particular arena.

    Her idea of prescribing you a topical gel/cream solution is a little crazy because those have a MUCH higher rate of aromatization. More of the test will be aromatized into estrogen, because when you rub that stuff on it has to seep through your skin, and then through your subcutaneous fat. The problem here lies in the fact that aromatase activity is like a hornets nest in fat tissue. Fat tissue is the greatest peripheral source of aromatase. Hence why creams will cause higher estrogen conversion.
    It's the opposite. Transdermals tend to convert more readily to DHT, as they first pass through the skin, which is where the 5a-r enzyme is found in high concentrations. And gels are typically applied to lean areas of the body with little subcutaneous fat (wrist, shoulders, etc).
    Last edited by Bonaparte; 08-09-2012 at 08:38 PM.

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    Atomini's Avatar
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    I remember reading a study somewhere that showed the aromatization rate was pretty high, somewhere around the 30% mark. I'll try to find it.

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    Bump.

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    Bump.

  21. #21
    Sworder is offline Banned
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    Bump for using this information to frontload.


    To attribute to the thread: Why do some people say they respond better to a certain ester? Is there any truth to this?

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    Atomini's Avatar
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    No clue. I think that falls into the category of conjecture and strange mental placebo effects. There really isn't a whole lot of SOLID evidence out there that states that Testosterone Enanthate has any significantly large advantage or disadvantage over Testosterone Propionate , and vice versa. We know Testosterone is Testosterone once your body's enzymes cleave that ester off. There's a little teeny tiny itty bit of evidence out there that there is some marginal aromatization difference between the longer estered Testosterones and the short estered ones, but this is more likely related to blood plasma peaks and such.

    I PERSONALLY enjoy short estered AAS compared to long estered AAS but it doesn't mean I have found myself responding better to one or the other. It is a personal preference related to convenience or whatnot, and maybe that is what most are talking about when they say they respond better.

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    Sworder is offline Banned
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    Do you think blends are preferable to single esters? For example, Sustanon versus enanthate .

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    Can you give me some info on the Dec and phenylpropionate a long and a medium esters please. And their place with test?

  25. #25
    Atomini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sworder View Post
    Do you think blends are preferable to single esters? For example, Sustanon versus enanthate.
    No, I don't like blends and i've made this clear in other posts on here. I like to be in full control of my half-lives and ratios when using something, and blends just throw this off way too much. Again, an issue of personal preference but it's becoming more and more clear that things like Sustanon and Test 400, etc. are just not very good because of their requirement for weird dosing schedules and shooting blood plasma levels of the hormones all over the place. Sustanon and blends need to be shot EOD, but with the longer esters in the mix, it just gets too rediculous. I like to keep things simple and stick to a single ester of whatever i'm using, and I reccomend the same to others.

    I like to think nearly everything has its place but I believe Sustanon and these different blends are the one things that just don't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Capebuffalo View Post
    Can you give me some info on the Dec and phenylpropionate a long and a medium esters please. And their place with test?
    What info do you need? I believe there's a list/database on this forum somewhere that lists the half-lives of the Decanoate and Phenylpropionate esters. You can find it via google as well.

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    I agree completely, to sustain the most stable serum concentrations of a blend you will have to go after the shortest ester. This will be done by pinning EOD(or ED) which is what you want to avoid doing since you have long esters in the mix.

  27. #27
    Capebuffalo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atomini View Post
    No, I don't like blends and i've made this clear in other posts on here. I like to be in full control of my half-lives and ratios when using something, and blends just throw this off way too much. Again, an issue of personal preference but it's becoming more and more clear that things like Sustanon and Test 400, etc. are just not very good because of their requirement for weird dosing schedules and shooting blood plasma levels of the hormones all over the place. Sustanon and blends need to be shot EOD, but with the longer esters in the mix, it just gets too rediculous. I like to keep things simple and stick to a single ester of whatever i'm using, and I reccomend the same to others.

    I like to think nearly everything has its place but I believe Sustanon and these different blends are the one things that just don't.



    What info do you need? I believe there's a list/database on this forum somewhere that lists the half-lives of the Decanoate and Phenylpropionate esters. You can find it via google as well.
    Thought you might have an opinion or insight into them since they are not commonly used. But like you said I can google it. Thanks. Didn't mean to interrupt your ester thread with an ester question

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    Sworder is offline Banned
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    NPP works well with test prop. Deca doesn't really work well unless you are running sustanon

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    Atomini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Capebuffalo View Post
    Thought you might have an opinion or insight into them since they are not commonly used. But like you said I can google it. Thanks. Didn't mean to interrupt your ester thread with an ester question
    Oh no problem, I just didn't know what exactly you were asking.

    The Decanoate ester is far too large for me to enjoy it. I've never ever used it, but it's pretty clear that if I don't like esters like Enanthate or Cypionate so much, then I DEFINITELY won't enjoy Decanoate, seeing as though it's even larger than the former two. Phenylpropionate is one that is more preferable to me, because it is shorter. It really isn't that much different from Propionate . I actually considered using Nandrolone Phenylpropionate over Nandrolone Decanoate.

    But it stands to reason that if you're going to use NPP, the best Testosterone to combine it with would be Test Prop. Likewise when using Nandrolone Decanoate, the best thing to do is use something such as Testosterone Enanthate (or if you can find it, Testosterone Decanoate).

  30. #30
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    I was making my own blend with these two esters. Just wanted your thoughts. Not something being bought pre made. It would be a custom blend. My research shows these two together would be a very beneficial compound.Test Deca 100 and test pheny 200. For a 300 mg compound. Just curious on your thoughts.
    Last edited by Capebuffalo; 10-23-2012 at 08:19 PM.

  31. #31
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    Thank you.

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    Would you be administering it EOD? That is what I would do with such a blend.

  33. #33
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    Yes eod. Will be running with NPP eod as well. Just trying something different. See what happens.

  34. #34
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    Man Atomini, I am so glad you bumped this thread! I loved it when you first put it up, and love it all the more now. Quick question regarding the deconate ester vs NPP. I have no way of getting NPP, but nandrolone deconate is plentiful. I know a compound is a compound, but it seems the general consensus is that the deconate ester of nandrolone is highly probably for water retention. This seem to be true of everyone that has experience with it. I prefer "cutters" to "bulkers" and would like to try NPP, as many of the experienced vets have commented they love NPP for cutting. Is there any truth to being able to efficiently "cut" with nandrolone deconate? I know anything can be used to cut or bulk, but it seems that deconate estered nandrolone is preferred to bulk and NPP to cut. I went ahead and got "deca "(your favorite term) as I am planning on mopping the floor with Cape in the Bulk, but can it be use to cut efficiently, or would you even bother? I dont want to retain any water, or at least keep it to a minimum.

  35. #35
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    The thing with Nandrolone in any esterified form is that its estrogenic activity is very low. It does aromatize into estrogen, but very little of it compared to things like dbol or test. So I don't see where all these claims of mass bloating come from. I'd like to know if the claimants are also running the typical 500mg/week of Testosterone with it... then that might explain it. Otherwise, bloat can be kept down with the use of an AI, and diet kept in check, and the truth is that you can use any anabolic steroid for cutting. I don't think too many people in the past have used Nandrolone Decanoate for cutting, and this is why there isn't much data out there on it. So why not be one of the ones to try it and see how it goes?

    Nandrolone in any form SHOULND'T cause one to hold water. Its aromatization rate is on the low end. If you're going to run it, run it at a higher dose and keep Testosterone at TRT levels. That should help.

  36. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atomini View Post
    The thing with Nandrolone in any esterified form is that its estrogenic activity is very low. It does aromatize into estrogen, but very little of it compared to things like dbol or test. So I don't see where all these claims of mass bloating come from. I'd like to know if the claimants are also running the typical 500mg/week of Testosterone with it... then that might explain it. Otherwise, bloat can be kept down with the use of an AI, and diet kept in check, and the truth is that you can use any anabolic steroid for cutting. I don't think too many people in the past have used Nandrolone Decanoate for cutting, and this is why there isn't much data out there on it. So why not be one of the ones to try it and see how it goes?

    Nandrolone in any form SHOULND'T cause one to hold water. Its aromatization rate is on the low end. If you're going to run it, run it at a higher dose and keep Testosterone at TRT levels. That should help.
    Have you ever used nandrolone? I tried it at just 300mg/week (alongside 250mg of Test E and 600mg of Primo) and HATED it. The bloat was almost impossible to control, as was the accompanying gyno. It must have more to do with it interacting with progestin receptors and increase the effects of estrogen.

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    No, I have never used Nandrolone . I love to stick with Trenbolone as my preferred 19-nor. I'm assuming you used the Decanoate ester?

    If your experience with Nandrolone is common, then I would think that NPP would be no different. Sounds like the bloating issue is unrelated to the ester and has everything to do with Nandrolone itself.

  38. #38
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    Yeah, it was Deca . The main thing I disliked about Deca is that even after I stopped taking it, I still had to wait over 2 weeks for the effects to subside.
    Never tried NPP, but my buddy who has used both and competes swears that he liked the NPP I gave him much better (and he was running like 800mg of it).

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    It's as Bonaparte states, must be some weird PR interaction. I don't think it is just an amplification of estrogen effects. Maybe something worth looking into, when time is available to do so....

  40. #40
    warmouth is offline Productive Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bonaparte View Post
    Have you ever used nandrolone? I tried it at just 300mg/week (alongside 250mg of Test E and 600mg of Primo) and HATED it. The bloat was almost impossible to control, as was the accompanying gyno. It must have more to do with it interacting with progestin receptors and increase the effects of estrogen.
    Oh boy! That makes mewantto jump right into it. What if Caber and an AI were used? While were at it, which AI has the least effect on HDL? I need a new one, as the liquidexisnt cuttingitand my total cholesterol is 391.

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