Ask the Exercise Scientist

**Ernst** · 10-31-2008, 08:19 AM

I was reading about catatonic schizophrenia (these patients will stay perfectly still, apparently zoned out, for amazing amounts of time, sometimes in odd or contorted positions), and it was described that these patients can display amazing strength when repositioning, when resisting repositioning, or when resisting psych ward staff. Is there some reason for this, that these patients can reportedly display amazing strength while not receiving any exercise to speak of? Isometrics perhaps? Is there a gain of available strength in a muscle group held perfectly still for a period of time?

**MuscleScience** · 10-31-2008, 08:42 AM

Originally Posted by 10nispro

The shoulder was scoped and was repaired by putting, two hangers(orthropod's language) that have sutures on them. The hangers are screwed into the glenoid fossa(shoulder capsule). All swelling related to surgery is gone. The rotator cup does seem to cramp some, but the dr. and PT attribute that to overcompensation(labrum weakness). There are lots of trigger points in several areas, all associated with the right traps, rhomboids, and scapula areas. The PT check reflexes of the (R) arm and everything in intact. I do notice that if the hand is in a relaxed position(arm held straight out in front, palm down, hand relaxed at wrist), there is no tremors, but when I lift or raise the hand, at the wrist, the tremors begin. I hope some of this helps. Thanks again. T

Ok, If I am thinking about how your describing how your arm is anatomically speaking. Then we are talking about your wrist extensors. If it is in fact your extensors we are talking about here, there could be several causes.

One is that your scalenes in your neck are very tight from being immobilized from the surgery and the arm sling. This can cause compression on the brachial plexus because this plexus runs between the middle and anterior scalene muscles. ( I think this is unlikely since you would have other neuropathies)

The Second and the most likely in my opinion is that you have some sort of compression or damage to the posterior cord of the brachial plexus. This eventually branches off to form the radial nerve. Which controls the wrist extensors and triceps.

Do you have and tricep dysfunction by chance.?

Keep in mind this is if I have your arm position down correctly from your description.

here are some links to look at that may help with your descriptions and some of my explanations.

http://depts.washington.edu/anesth/r...usanatomy.html

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/e...cle/000790.htm

Disclaimer: this is for informational purposes only and in no way should this be used instead of a doctors advice, but you already know that.....LOL

**MuscleScience** · 10-31-2008, 09:33 AM

Originally Posted by ErnstHatAngst

I was reading about catatonic schizophrenia (these patients will stay perfectly still, apparently zoned out, for amazing amounts of time, sometimes in odd or contorted positions), and it was described that these patients can display amazing strength when repositioning, when resisting repositioning, or when resisting psych ward staff. Is there some reason for this, that these patients can reportedly display amazing strength while not receiving any exercise to speak of? Isometrics perhaps? Is there a gain of available strength in a muscle group held perfectly still for a period of time?

This is a very interesting topic to me personally, because it deals with neuromuscular control in a lot of interesting ways. Without going into great detail they generally are suffering from some sort of paranoia that causes these weird body motions. Now when someone trys to reposition them they often times try to fight or resist this which is called negativism.

The part of the brain that helps control voluntary motor control is also one of the areas that is effected in this condition. Skeletal muscle has a number of protective mechanism to prevent the muscle from producing to much force and damaging things like the tendons and joints that it is moving. There is a feedback system that monitors how much force and length at which the muscle is at at any one point in time. These are called the muscle spindle fibers which reside within the muscle and the Golgi Tendon Organ which resides in the tendons.

When these systems sense that a muscle is producing to much force or is changing its length to rapidly, they send an inhibitor signal directly to the motor unit synapse (Some neurophysiologist call these tri-synaptic loops, I wish i could find an image that would describe it better) involved and an excititory signal to the opposing muscle group to control joint movement. At any given time most individuals can not fully contract a given muscle harder than about 90% of its true contractile potential.

Now in these schizophrenic patients they can somehow override this inhibitory system and can elicit muscle contractions to the absolute maximum capacity. Normal individuals can do this to, in extreme instances of stress such as in a life threatening situation. (fight or flight response) the difference is that we can not do it on command. The brain automatically does it for us, without us thinking about it, even then there is usually some reserve of strength held.

Hope this makes sense I got a bit of a cold right now an the cold medicine is making me pretty sleepy.....

Note I will go back and re-read what I wrote to make sure it makes sence once my cold medicine wears off....hahahahha

**10nispro** · 10-31-2008, 12:09 PM

Originally Posted by MuscleScience

Ok, If I am thinking about how your describing how your arm is anatomically speaking. Then we are talking about your wrist extensors. If it is in fact your extensors we are talking about here, there could be several causes.

One is that your scalenes in your neck are very tight from being immobilized from the surgery and the arm sling. This can cause compression on the brachial plexus because this plexus runs between the middle and anterior scalene muscles. ( I think this is unlikely since you would have other neuropathies)

The Second and the most likely in my opinion is that you have some sort of compression or damage to the posterior cord of the brachial plexus. This eventually branches off to form the radial nerve. Which controls the wrist extensors and triceps.

Do you have and tricep dysfunction by chance.?

Keep in mind this is if I have your arm position down correctly from your description.

here are some links to look at that may help with your descriptions and some of my explanations.

http://depts.washington.edu/anesth/r...usanatomy.html

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/e...cle/000790.htm

Disclaimer: this is for informational purposes only and in no way should this be used instead of a doctors advice, but you already know that.....LOL

I think you have the position correct. My right trap does stay contracted/guarded position lots, which causes some cramping and I have to stretch it several times a day.

I don't have any strength problems in my triceps. Maybe alittle atrophy do to lack of activity, but my PT has me doing strength exercises and everything seems fine.

I will keep you posted on my condition.

**MuscleScience** · 11-01-2008, 12:39 PM

Bump for more questions.

**MuscleScience** · 11-08-2008, 05:22 PM

I am Glad that I inspired thegodfather and DSM4Life in such a profound ways as to have spin off threads of this one.....LOL

**bodybuilder1107** · 11-08-2008, 05:35 PM

is it better to low card for cutting or carb cycle?

**wascaptain5214** · 11-08-2008, 05:44 PM

Ive been getting epidural cortisone injections at t8/t9 in my thoracic spine for pain relief. are these injections harmful in the long term? thx

**DSM4Life** · 11-08-2008, 06:10 PM

How come my thread is better than yours ?

**MuscleScience** · 11-08-2008, 07:16 PM

Originally Posted by bodybuilder1107

is it better to low card for cutting or carb cycle?

That one is purely a matter of opinion, the basics of any weight loss plan is to be in a state of negative energy balance, both types of dieting achieve both.

Dieting is important for weight loss. However the scientific literature is very none descript on this subject. It is very hard to conduct studies on dieting but one things is clear from the literature. Adherence to a diet plan has the most direct impact on the dieters goals. I wish I could give you more specific...

**MuscleScience** · 11-08-2008, 07:38 PM

Originally Posted by wascaptain5214

Ive been getting epidural cortisone injections at t8/t9 in my thoracic spine for pain relief. are these injections harmful in the long term? thx

It kind of depends on who you ask but on the subject. Orthopods will tell you that there is low chance of side effects occurring. That is certainly true in the short term. Long term use can cause a variety of bone abnormalities such lose of bone mineral density around the sites of injection, avascular necrosis and and increase chances of fracture.

If your concerned about possible side effects make sure you ask your doctor about them.

**DSM4Life** · 11-08-2008, 07:40 PM

Sureeeee ignore the big elephant in the room !

**MuscleScience** · 11-08-2008, 07:58 PM

Originally Posted by DSM4Life

How come my thread is better than yours ?

Better is a relative term, sure your thread is better for laughs and for having to use a lot less brain cells in order to understand.....

My thread is better because it is the OG thread and it will go straight gangsta on yo ass if you do not pay it its props.

Originally Posted by DSM4Life

Sureeeee ignore the big elephant in the room !

How could I ever ignore a Big pink puffy elephant in my room.

**DSM4Life** · 11-08-2008, 08:12 PM

**wascaptain5214** · 11-09-2008, 07:02 AM

Originally Posted by MuscleScience

It kind of depends on who you ask but on the subject. Orthopods will tell you that there is low chance of side effects occurring. That is certainly true in the short term. Long term use can cause a variety of bone abnormalities such lose of bone mineral density around the sites of injection, avascular necrosis and and increase chances of fracture.

If your concerned about possible side effects make sure you ask your doctor about them.

i usually get a good month of no pain after i get it. but after that it wears off and its back to "back" pain..lol.. it is unbelievable the amount of pain meds the quacks prescribe for me. i do not take them as directed, i couldn't function if i did. i guess its a toss up between pain meds and injections. thx for your input and time....

**wascaptain5214** · 11-09-2008, 07:07 AM

another question for you. i get blood work done by my HRT doc every 6 months. could i throw in a cycle of tren inbetween blood works, and it not screw up my test values? thx again

**MuscleScience** · 11-09-2008, 12:55 PM

Originally Posted by wascaptain5214

another question for you. i get blood work done by my HRT doc every 6 months. could i throw in a cycle of tren inbetween blood works, and it not screw up my test values? thx again

I imagine it may, but since your already shut down i do not see it dropping your test levels at all. But I am no expert on this subject.

**peachfuzz** · 11-20-2008, 01:08 AM

As I type this I see how dumb this question is but here it is anyways. Is it possible for an infection caused by IM to not be localized to the injection site? I ask because a few nights ago I had a delt injection I wasnt happy with. A little pain and soreness in the delt but nothing major. Now two days later the pain has completely disapated from the delt but feels as if it has traveled to my tricep and is even more pronounced. The tricep is red and warm and appears a little swollen but my muscles are so big its kinda hard to tell

What are your thoughts. Infection? Necrosis? Am I gonna live?

also gonna post this in the Q and A...

**Phate** · 11-30-2008, 12:39 PM

k, i got one for you

first off you'll need my stats
19
210
14% or so
5'6 to 5'7

i've noticed that i have to take very large amounts of stimulants in order to get desired effects, examples:

i routinely take over 1g of caffeine without getting wired

i have never gotten sides from up to 400mcg/day of clen

AGX AmplifyO2 at 12caps, plus 1g of caffeine got me a nice wired effect but didn't last very long(45-60minutes)

i accidently took 3-4g of caffeine once and though my heartrate increased i was able to go to sleep easily and function normal(i asked my mom, whos an OT, how i was acting and she couldn't tell that i was on caffeine, no tweeking or anything)

so my question is why? my parents are sensitive to stimulants but i have been like this since i can remember

**KatsMeow** · 11-30-2008, 01:10 PM

phate, you're just a crack head...we have already established that ...lOL

**xlxBigSexyxlx** · 11-30-2008, 01:16 PM

What can one do to best increase his/her endurance?
As in one backpacking/hiking for 10 days, wearing a 70 pound pack.
And as far as lifting weights, are we looking at high rep stuff?

Also, I want to dunk. Is plyometrics the answer?

**Phate** · 11-30-2008, 01:22 PM

Originally Posted by KatsMeow

phate, you're just a crack head...we have already established that ...lOL

no i'm not, i'm gonna have to have a word with you when i get back from my caffeine addicts anonymous meeting about these crack head comments

**MuscleScience** · 11-30-2008, 01:28 PM

The body has a mechanism that can render drugs inactive. If you think about it anytime you put something in your body you disrupt its normal physiology. The body wants to be in its normal operating range. The Liver specifically expresses a family of enzymes commonly know as the cytochrome P450 oxidases (CYP). This group of enzymes is very diverse and has important functions.

When the body is exposed to a compound lets call it compound X. The body reacts to it by up regulating the expression of CYP that is specific to that compound. CYP will react with compound X rendering it chemically inactive. Usually by oxidizing the compound which is known as Phase I metabolism by pharmacologist. This leads to drug tolerance which requires more drug to get the same therapeutic effect.

Which leads me to what i think is responsible for your instance. Chronic use of caffeine can and will certainly lead to a increase in drug tolerance. There are conditions where people who consume large amounts of caffeine start to up regulate receptors for adenosine. Caffeine is an adenosine antagonist and though I do not completely understand the mechanism, from what I remember from biochem and some studies I have read. When the adenosine receptors in the CNS are up-regulated they counteract the effects that caffeine would normally have.

**Jfew44** · 11-30-2008, 01:32 PM

[QUOTE=xlxBigSexyxlx;4317069]What can one do to best increase his/her endurance?
As in one backpacking/hiking for 10 days, wearing a 70 pound pack.
And as far as lifting weights, are we looking at high rep stuff?

Also, I want to dunk. Is plyometrics the answer?[/QUOTE]

Yes, or lower the rim

**Jfew44** · 11-30-2008, 01:36 PM

I do have a serious question though. Being 6'4", am I at a disadvantage to heavy compound movements such as deads, squats, and bench? It seems my shorter-limbed friends have an easier time throwing weights around in those lifts. I know there is a greater ROM for me but does that mean my muscles are being taxed more than theirs or is it an equal amount because I have longer muscles?

**MuscleScience** · 11-30-2008, 01:39 PM

Originally Posted by xlxBigSexyxlx

What can one do to best increase his/her endurance?
As in one backpacking/hiking for 10 days, wearing a 70 pound pack.
And as far as lifting weights, are we looking at high rep stuff?

Also, I want to dunk. Is plyometrics the answer?

You need to put your time in on doing cardio. I think the stair stepper would be about as specific to what you would see while hiking. if you have a backpack you could wear that to be even more specific. I would say that depending on how long you have before your hike, 3-5 times a week for at least 30 minutes at moderate intensity which would be good enough to take advantage of the overload principle of training adaptation.

Plyo's are a great way to increase anaerobic power. Much of their training effect is neural adaptation at first. Later muscular strength will increase just like any other power or strength protocol.

**MuscleScience** · 11-30-2008, 01:42 PM

Originally Posted by KatsMeow

Exactly Phate, you will never get as high as you did the first time you smoked crack, thats why you are having to smoke more and more...

Better edit the rec drug comments before you get into trouble....

**MuscleScience** · 11-30-2008, 01:54 PM

Originally Posted by Jfew44

I do have a serious question though. Being 6'4", am I at a disadvantage to heavy compound movements such as deads, squats, and bench? It seems my shorter-limbed friends have an easier time throwing weights around in those lifts. I know there is a greater ROM for me but does that mean my muscles are being taxed more than theirs or is it an equal amount because I have longer muscles?

Oh biomechanics thats my weak point. Having longer limbs puts you at a mechanical disadvantage because it takes more force to move a longer lever. Having said that having a longer lever means you can generate more power. Just like a longer golf club generates more power for a longer drive. A longer arm generates more power for throwing a baseball than a shorter arm, given that the exact amount of force can be produced by the muscle for each example.

**xlxBigSexyxlx** · 11-30-2008, 01:56 PM

Originally Posted by MuscleScience

You need to put your time in on doing cardio. I think the stair stepper would be about as specific to what you would see while hiking. if you have a backpack you could wear that to be even more specific. I would say that depending on how long you have before your hike, 3-5 times a week for at least 30 minutes at moderate intensity which would be good enough to take advantage of the overload principle of training adaptation.

Plyo's are a great way to increase anaerobic power. Much of their training effect is neural adaptation at first. Later muscular strength will increase just like any other power or strength protocol.

What about lifting weights wise? One needs a strong back, legs, and core. Would lifting at higher reps be any better for hiking/backpacking purposes than your typical low rep, med rep bodybuilding workouts?

Maybe something like circuit training?

**Jfew44** · 11-30-2008, 01:58 PM

So what I'm getting is that in the long run, I have the ability to lift heavier weight because of the longer levers (limbs). Thats what I was thinking. Thanks bro, I'll come up with some more for when you get bored

**MuscleScience** · 11-30-2008, 02:05 PM

Originally Posted by xlxBigSexyxlx

What about lifting weights wise? One needs a strong back, legs, and core. Would lifting at higher reps be any better for hiking/backpacking purposes than your typical low rep, med rep bodybuilding workouts?

Maybe something like circuit training?

Well you could do a circuit that would give you both strength and endurance increases at the same time. I do that for MMA and it works well for both. You dont get as much aerobic benefit out of it as you do anaerobically unless your careful to keep your heart rate up. But then you sacrifice some strength gains. Strength training for both muscular endurance and strength is generally recommended to be in the 10-12 rep range based off Dr. Westcott's research.

**xlxBigSexyxlx** · 11-30-2008, 02:09 PM

Thanks MS

I'm going to look into circuits and interval training and see what I can whip up

**MuscleScience** · 11-30-2008, 02:13 PM

Originally Posted by Jfew44

So what I'm getting is that in the long run, I have the ability to lift heavier weight because of the longer levers (limbs). Thats what I was thinking. Thanks bro, I'll come up with some more for when you get bored

Yes and know, you have more potential for growth since you physically have more room for muscle growth. Will you ever be able to squat 500lbs like your 5'5 friend maybe not. Will you be able to generate more power than he can, Yes.

**MuscleScience** · 11-30-2008, 02:15 PM

Originally Posted by xlxBigSexyxlx

Thanks MS

I'm going to look into circuits and interval training and see what I can whip up

Sorry it is Dr Wayne Westcott not Wescott, that will make a difference.

**goose** · 11-30-2008, 02:19 PM

Dude-

Do you think Citrulline Malate is a decent amino to take and worth it?

thanks,

**sizerp** · 11-30-2008, 02:24 PM

What can I use to counter-act B5 sides? Diarrhea/bloat etc? Non-drug.

**MuscleScience** · 11-30-2008, 02:32 PM

Originally Posted by goose

Dude-

Do you think Citrulline Malate is a decent amino to take and worth it?

thanks,

It seems to have some benefit on aerobic capacity of skeletal muscle. I first heard about this stuff as it has beneficial effects at reducing endotoxins produced by bacteria. I have heard nothing but good stuff about it. A quick literature review seems to confirm that.

**MuscleScience** · 11-30-2008, 02:35 PM

Originally Posted by sizerp

What can I use to counter-act B5 sides? Diarrhea/bloat etc? Non-drug.

How much are you using?

**sizerp** · 11-30-2008, 02:38 PM

Originally Posted by MuscleScience

How much are you using?

I dosed 5g/day for the first 3 days. Then I dosed 10g/day for 2 days. Backed off today though, only done like 2g so far. Get the worst bloat ever. Sucks, I may just opt out and try for accutane instead.

**MuscleScience** · 11-30-2008, 02:46 PM

Originally Posted by sizerp

I dosed 5g/day for the first 3 days. Then I dosed 10g/day for 2 days. Backed off today though, only done like 2g so far. Get the worst bloat ever. Sucks, I may just opt out and try for accutane instead.

Oh I see, 10g/days seems to be the magic number for sides. Just take 6-7 g/day. That is all that is recommended, plus you get lots of B5 from the food you eat anyway.