a must read

[john1181]

so this guy at the gym i know told me about this link...check it out guys

HCG - Unraveled

By Eric M. Potratz (Email)

Eric M. Potratz has developed his education in the field of endocrinology and performance enhancement through years of research, counseling, and real world experience. Over the past five years he has been a private consultant for hundreds of athletes and bodybuilders alike, and is the founder & president of Primordial Performance.

PCT is a must upon cessation of steroid use . Many great PCT protocols have been outlined over the years, and many individuals have had success with following such protocols. Nevertheless, what works can always work better, and I intend to show you the most effective way to recover from AAS. This is especially the case for those that have had a lack of success following popular advice. In this article I will address the misunderstanding and misuse of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (hCG) and show you the most efficient way to use hCG for the fastest and most complete recovery.

HCG unraveled –

Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (hCG) is a peptide hormone that mimics the action of luteinizing hormone (LH). LH is the hormone that stimulates the testes to produce testosterone . (1) More specifically LH is the primary signal sent from the pituitary to the testes, which stimulates the leydig cells within the testes to produce testosterone.

When steroids are administered, LH levels rapidly decline. The absence of an LH signal from the pituitary causes the testes to stop producing testosterone, which causes rapid onset of testicular degeneration. The testicular degeneration begins with a reduction of leydig cell volume, and is then followed by rapid reductions in intra-testicular testosterone (ITT), peroxisomes, and Insulin -like factor 3 (INSL3) – All important bio-markers and factors for proper testicular function and testosterone production. (2-6,19) However, this degeneration can be prevented by a small maintenance dose of hCG ran throughout the cycle. Unfortunately, most steroid users have been engrained to believe that hCG should be used after a cycle, during PCT. Upon reviewing the science and basic endocrinology you will see that a faster and more complete recovery is possible if hCG is ran during a cycle.

Firstly, we must understand the clinical history of hCG to understand its purpose and its most efficient application. Many popular “steroid profiles” advocate using hCG at a dose of 2500-5000iu once or twice a week. These were the kind of dosages used in the historical (1960’s) hCG studies for hypogonadal men who had reduced testicular sensitivity due to prolonged LH deficiency. (21,22) A prolonged LH deficiency causes the testes to desensitize, requiring a higher hCG dose for ample stimulation. In men with normal LH levels and normal testicular sensitivity, the maximum increase of testosterone is seen from a dose of only 250iu, with minimal increases obtained from 500iu or even 5000iu. (2,11) (It appears the testes maximum secretion of testosterone is about 140% above their normal capacity.) (12-18) If you have allowed your testes to desensitize over the length of a typical steroid cycle, (8-16 weeks) then you would require a higher dose to elicit a response in an attempt to restore normal testicular size and function – but there is cost to this, and a high probability that you won’t regain full testicular function.

One term that is critical to understand is testosterone secretion capacity which is synonymous to testicular sensitivity. This is the amount of testosterone your testes can produce from any given LH or hCG stimulation. Therefore, if you have reduced testosterone secretion capacity (reduced testicular sensitivity), it will take more LH or hCG stimulation to produce the same result as if you had normal testosterone secretion capacity. If you reduce your testosterone secretion capacity too much, then no amount of LH or hCG stimulation will trigger normal testosterone production – and this leads to permanently reduced testosterone production.

To get an idea of how quickly you can reduce your testosterone secretion capacity from your average steroid cycle, consider this: LH levels are rapidly decreased by the 2nd day of steroid administration. (2,9,10) By shutting down the LH signal and allowing the testis to be non-functional over a 12-16 week period, leydig cell volume decreases 90%, ITT decreases 94%, INSL3 decreases 95%, while the capacity to secrete testosterone decreases as much as 98%. (2-6)

Note: visually analyzing testes size is a poor method of judging your actual testicular function, since testicular size is not directly related to the ability to secrete testosterone. (4) This is because the leydig cells, which are the primary sites of testosterone secretion, only make up about 10% of the total testicular volume. Therefore, when the testes may only appear 5-10% smaller, the testes ability to secrete testosterone upon LH or hCG stimulation can actually be significantly reduced to 98% of their normal production. (3-5) The point here is to not judge testosterone secretion capacity by testicular size.



The decreased testosterone secretion capacity caused by steroid use was well demonstrated in a study on power athletes who used steroids for 16 weeks, and were then administered 4500iu hCG post cycle. It was found that the steroid users were about 20 times less responsive to hCG, when compared to normal men who did not use steroids . (8) In other words, their testosterone secretion capacity was dramatically reduced because they did not receive an LH signal for 16 weeks. The testes essentially became desensitized and crippled. Case studies with steroid using patients show that aggressive long-term treatment with hCG at dosages as high as 10,000iu E3D for 12 weeks were unable to return full testicular size. (7) Another study with men using low dose steroids for 6 weeks showed unsuccessful return of Insulin-like factor-3 (INSL3) concentration in the testes upon 5000iu/wk of HCG treatment for 12 weeks (6) (INSL3 is an important biomarker for testosterone production potential and sperm production. 20)

These studies show that postponing hCG usage until the end of a steroid cycle increases your need for a higher dose of hCG, and decreases your odds of a full recovery. As a consequence to using a higher dose of hCG at the end of a cycle, estrogen will be increased disproportionately to testosterone, which then causes further HPTA suppression (from high estrogen) while increasing the risk of gyno. (11) For example, high doses of hCG have been found to raise estradiol up to 165%, while only raising testosterone 140%. (11) Higher doses of hCG are also known to reduce LH receptor concentration and degrade the enzymes responsible for testosterone synthesis within the testes (12,13,19 ) -- the last thing someone wants during recovery. While these negative effects of hCG can be partly mitigated by the use of a SERM such as tamoxifen , it will create further problems associated with using a toxic SERM (covered in another article).

In light of the above evidence, it becomes obvious that we must take preventative measures to avoid this testicular degeneration. We must protect our testicular sensitivity. Besides, with hCG being so readily available, and such a painless shot, it makes you wonder why anyone wouldn’t use it on cycle.

Based on studies with normal men using steroids, 100iu HCG administered everyday was enough to preserve full testicular function and ITT levels, without causing desensitization typically associated with higher doses of hCG. (2) It is important that low-dose hCG is started before testicular sensitivity is reduced, which appears to rapidly manifest within the first 2-3 weeks of steroid use. Also, it’s important to discontinue the hCG before you start PCT so your leydig cells are given a chance to re-sensitize to your body’s own LH production. (To help further enhance testicular sensitivity, the dietary supplement Toco-8 may be used)

A more convenient alternative to the above recommendation would be a twice a week shot of 200iu hCG, or possibly a once a week shot of 500iu. However, it is most desirable to adhere to a lower more frequent dose of hCG to mimic the body’s natural LH release and minimize estrogen conversion. If you are starting hCG late in the cycle, one could calculate a rough estimate for their required hCG ‘kick starting’ dosage by multiplying 40iu x days of LH absence, since the testes will be desensitized, thus requiring a higher dose. (ie. 40iu x 60 days = 2400iu HCG dose)

Note: If following the on cycle hCG protocol, hCG should NOT be used for PCT.

Recap –

For preservation of testicular sensitivity, use 100iu hCG ED starting 7 days after your first AAS dose. At the end of the cycle, drop the hCG two weeks before the AAS clear the system. For example, you would drop hCG about the same time as your last Testosterone Enanthate shot. Or, if you are ending the cycle with orals, you would drop the hCG about 10 days before your last oral dose. This will allow for a sudden and even clearance in hormone levels, while initiating LH and FSH production from the pituitary, to begin stimulating your testes to produce testosterone. Remember, recovery doesn’t begin until you are off hCG since your body will not release its own LH until the hCG has cleared the system.

In conclusion, we have learned that utilizing hCG during a steroid cycle will significantly prevent testicular degeneration. This helps create a seamless transition from “on cycle” to “off cycle” thus avoiding the post cycle crash.



References -

1. Glycoprotein hormones: structure and function.
Pierce JG, Parsons TF 1981
Annu Rev Biochem 50:466–495

2. Low-Dose Human Chorionic Gonadotropin Maintains Intratesticular Testosterone in Normal Men with Testosterone-Induced Gonadotropin Suppression
Andrea D. Coviello, et al
J. Clin. Endocrinol. Metab., May 2005; 90: 2595 - 2602.

3. Luteinizing hormone on Leydig cell structure and function.
Mendis-Handagama SM
Histol Histopathol 12:869–882 (1997)

4. Leydig cell peroxisomes and sterol carrier protein-2 in luteinizing hormone-deprived rats
SM Mendis-Handagama, et al.
Endocrinology, Dec 1992; 131: 2839.

5. Effect of long term deprivation of luteinizing hormone on Leydig cell volume, Leydig cell number, and steroidogenic capacity of the rat testis.
Keeney DS, et al.
Endocrinology 1988; 123:2906–2915.

6.The Effects of Gonadotropin Suppression and Selective Replacement on Insulin-Like Factor 3 Secretion in Normal Adult Men
Katrine Bay, et al
J. Clin. Endocrinol. Metab., Mar 2006; 91: 1108 - 1111.

7. Successful treatment of anabolic steroid–induced azoospermia with human
chorionic gonadotropin and human menopausal gonadotropin
Dev Kumar Menon, et al.
FERTILITY AND STERILITY VOL. 79, SUPPL. 3, JUNE 2003

8. Testicular responsiveness to human chorionic godadotrophin during transient hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism induced by androgenic /anabolic steroids in power athletes
Hannu et al.
J. Steroid Biochem. Vol. 25, No. 1 pp. 109-112 (1986)

9. Comparison of testosterone, dihydrotestosterone, luteinizing hormone, and follicle-stimulating hormone in serum after injection of testosterone enanthate of testosterone cypionate .
Schulte-Beerbuhl M, et al 1980
Fertil Steril 33:201–203

10. Effects of chronic testosterone administration in normal men: safety and efficacy of high dosage testosterone and parallel dose-dependent suppression of luteinizing hormone, follicle-stimulating hormone, and sperm production.
Matsumoto AM, et al 1990
J Clin Endocrinol Metab 70:282–287

11. Effect of human chorionic gonadotropin on plasma steroid levels in young and old men.
Longcope C et al
Steroids 21:583–590 (1973)

12. Regulation of peptide hormone receptors and gonadal steroidogenesis.
Catt KJ, et al
Rec Prog Horm Res 1980; 36:557–622

13. Effect of human chorionic gonadotropin on the endocrine function of Papio testes
GV Katsiia, et al

[Dukkit]

interesting. i love reading new things

[john1181]

me too..from now on hcg will be n all my cycles

[Swifto]

I've been telling all steroid users to use HCG for years now. Its imperitive.

It should be used whenever the HPTA is fully shutdown for over 3-4 weeks IMHO.

[WARMachine]

Nice read thanks bro!

I use 500IU's 2xW so im not far off of what is suggested.

Again, nice read!

[bladerunner9]

****kking good one. Even a non steroid user can get the thumb rule of using HCG . Good postm John. 10/10

[Primordial Perf]

Glad you guys enjoyed it.

-Eric

[Swifto]

Glad you guys enjoyed it.

-Eric

I thought I saw this somewhere before, its yours.

Great read Eric.

[Royal MaKo Rumble]

fooking brilliant post!

[The Deuce]

Has anyone ever done 100 iu's a day whilst on cycle??? And if you were to do that according to the article you omit the HCG for PCT.. Did I read that correctly??

[WARMachine]

There are a lot of people who SWEAR by using hCG during cycle.

I never felt the need to though.

As long as its used in moderation.

[thebutcher95]

good read

[clockwork_killer]

good read john

[Ernst]

Good post bro.

[brew69420]

So what about the people who have not run it during a cycle and had bloodwork done after pct that says their nat test levels are ok? Does this mean that their test levels are ok but maybe not as high as they could be cause they don't have full testicular function?

[brew69420]

this info is making me a little nervous that i might not have full testicular function

[georgemrcs]

after reading this its its safe to say that i can kick start my HCG NOW 63 days into my cycle, 63x40iu which would be a shot of approx 2500iu. then i would take 250 twice a week till the end of my cycle..
what would my PCT be at the end of my cycle if no HCG is required??
any ideas anyone?

[sizerp]

Is this information, about HCG administration, applicable to a PH cycle? For example 4 weeks of H-Drol?

[WARMachine]

after reading this its its safe to say that i can kick start my HCG NOW 63 days into my cycle, 63x40iu which would be a shot of approx 2500iu. then i would take 250 twice a week till the end of my cycle..
what would my PCT be at the end of my cycle if no HCG is required??
any ideas anyone?

Start your own thread bro, this one is for educational purposes...

Same with the poster above this post...

[sizerp]

My bad.

[Primordial Perf]

So what about the people who have not run it during a cycle and had bloodwork done after pct that says their nat test levels are ok? Does this mean that their test levels are ok but maybe not as high as they could be cause they don't have full testicular function?

400ng/dl is technically “ok” by most doc’s standards. The long-term detriment of AAS to the HPTA is generally transparent to the user. It’s best to play it safe and just use hCG during the cycle.

-Pp

[Primordial Perf]

Has anyone ever done 100 iu's a day whilst on cycle??? And if you were to do that according to the article you omit the HCG for PCT.. Did I read that correctly??

Yes, if you do hCG during the cycle, you don’t use it for PCT.

100iu/ED is not really the most desirable use of hCG. Short, intermittent spikes of hCG a couple times a week is ideal. The testes stay most responsive this way.

-Pp

[Primordial Perf]

Is this information, about HCG administration, applicable to a PH cycle? For example 4 weeks of H-Drol?

Yes, all the same rules would apply to PH’s… however since most PH’s are ran only 4-6 weeks you don’t really need hCG for a cycle this long.

-Pp

[Primordial Perf]

I thought I saw this somewhere before, its yours.

Great read Eric.

Hey thanks bro...

Shoot me an email will ya?

-Pp

[LizzardSecond]

very good post

[BGIZZLE8629]

so this guy at the gym i know told me about this link...check it out guys

HCG - Unraveled

By Eric M. Potratz (Email)

Eric M. Potratz has developed his education in the field of endocrinology and performance enhancement through years of research, counseling, and real world experience. Over the past five years he has been a private consultant for hundreds of athletes and bodybuilders alike, and is the founder & president of Primordial Performance.

PCT is a must upon cessation of steroid use . Many great PCT protocols have been outlined over the years, and many individuals have had success with following such protocols. Nevertheless, what works can always work better, and I intend to show you the most effective way to recover from AAS. This is especially the case for those that have had a lack of success following popular advice. In this article I will address the misunderstanding and misuse of Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (hCG) and show you the most efficient way to use hCG for the fastest and most complete recovery.

HCG unraveled –

Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (hCG) is a peptide hormone that mimics the action of luteinizing hormone (LH). LH is the hormone that stimulates the testes to produce testosterone . (1) More specifically LH is the primary signal sent from the pituitary to the testes, which stimulates the leydig cells within the testes to produce testosterone.

When steroids are administered, LH levels rapidly decline. The absence of an LH signal from the pituitary causes the testes to stop producing testosterone, which causes rapid onset of testicular degeneration. The testicular degeneration begins with a reduction of leydig cell volume, and is then followed by rapid reductions in intra-testicular testosterone (ITT), peroxisomes, and Insulin -like factor 3 (INSL3) – All important bio-markers and factors for proper testicular function and testosterone production. (2-6,19) However, this degeneration can be prevented by a small maintenance dose of hCG ran throughout the cycle. Unfortunately, most steroid users have been engrained to believe that hCG should be used after a cycle, during PCT. Upon reviewing the science and basic endocrinology you will see that a faster and more complete recovery is possible if hCG is ran during a cycle.

Firstly, we must understand the clinical history of hCG to understand its purpose and its most efficient application. Many popular “steroid profiles” advocate using hCG at a dose of 2500-5000iu once or twice a week. These were the kind of dosages used in the historical (1960’s) hCG studies for hypogonadal men who had reduced testicular sensitivity due to prolonged LH deficiency. (21,22) A prolonged LH deficiency causes the testes to desensitize, requiring a higher hCG dose for ample stimulation. In men with normal LH levels and normal testicular sensitivity, the maximum increase of testosterone is seen from a dose of only 250iu, with minimal increases obtained from 500iu or even 5000iu. (2,11) (It appears the testes maximum secretion of testosterone is about 140% above their normal capacity.) (12-18) If you have allowed your testes to desensitize over the length of a typical steroid cycle, (8-16 weeks) then you would require a higher dose to elicit a response in an attempt to restore normal testicular size and function – but there is cost to this, and a high probability that you won’t regain full testicular function.

One term that is critical to understand is testosterone secretion capacity which is synonymous to testicular sensitivity. This is the amount of testosterone your testes can produce from any given LH or hCG stimulation. Therefore, if you have reduced testosterone secretion capacity (reduced testicular sensitivity), it will take more LH or hCG stimulation to produce the same result as if you had normal testosterone secretion capacity. If you reduce your testosterone secretion capacity too much, then no amount of LH or hCG stimulation will trigger normal testosterone production – and this leads to permanently reduced testosterone production.

To get an idea of how quickly you can reduce your testosterone secretion capacity from your average steroid cycle, consider this: LH levels are rapidly decreased by the 2nd day of steroid administration. (2,9,10) By shutting down the LH signal and allowing the testis to be non-functional over a 12-16 week period, leydig cell volume decreases 90%, ITT decreases 94%, INSL3 decreases 95%, while the capacity to secrete testosterone decreases as much as 98%. (2-6)

Note: visually analyzing testes size is a poor method of judging your actual testicular function, since testicular size is not directly related to the ability to secrete testosterone. (4) This is because the leydig cells, which are the primary sites of testosterone secretion, only make up about 10% of the total testicular volume. Therefore, when the testes may only appear 5-10% smaller, the testes ability to secrete testosterone upon LH or hCG stimulation can actually be significantly reduced to 98% of their normal production. (3-5) The point here is to not judge testosterone secretion capacity by testicular size.



The decreased testosterone secretion capacity caused by steroid use was well demonstrated in a study on power athletes who used steroids for 16 weeks, and were then administered 4500iu hCG post cycle. It was found that the steroid users were about 20 times less responsive to hCG, when compared to normal men who did not use steroids . (8) In other words, their testosterone secretion capacity was dramatically reduced because they did not receive an LH signal for 16 weeks. The testes essentially became desensitized and crippled. Case studies with steroid using patients show that aggressive long-term treatment with hCG at dosages as high as 10,000iu E3D for 12 weeks were unable to return full testicular size. (7) Another study with men using low dose steroids for 6 weeks showed unsuccessful return of Insulin-like factor-3 (INSL3) concentration in the testes upon 5000iu/wk of HCG treatment for 12 weeks (6) (INSL3 is an important biomarker for testosterone production potential and sperm production. 20)

These studies show that postponing hCG usage until the end of a steroid cycle increases your need for a higher dose of hCG, and decreases your odds of a full recovery. As a consequence to using a higher dose of hCG at the end of a cycle, estrogen will be increased disproportionately to testosterone, which then causes further HPTA suppression (from high estrogen) while increasing the risk of gyno. (11) For example, high doses of hCG have been found to raise estradiol up to 165%, while only raising testosterone 140%. (11) Higher doses of hCG are also known to reduce LH receptor concentration and degrade the enzymes responsible for testosterone synthesis within the testes (12,13,19 ) -- the last thing someone wants during recovery. While these negative effects of hCG can be partly mitigated by the use of a SERM such as tamoxifen , it will create further problems associated with using a toxic SERM (covered in another article).

In light of the above evidence, it becomes obvious that we must take preventative measures to avoid this testicular degeneration. We must protect our testicular sensitivity. Besides, with hCG being so readily available, and such a painless shot, it makes you wonder why anyone wouldn’t use it on cycle.

Based on studies with normal men using steroids, 100iu HCG administered everyday was enough to preserve full testicular function and ITT levels, without causing desensitization typically associated with higher doses of hCG. (2) It is important that low-dose hCG is started before testicular sensitivity is reduced, which appears to rapidly manifest within the first 2-3 weeks of steroid use. Also, it’s important to discontinue the hCG before you start PCT so your leydig cells are given a chance to re-sensitize to your body’s own LH production. (To help further enhance testicular sensitivity, the dietary supplement Toco-8 may be used)

A more convenient alternative to the above recommendation would be a twice a week shot of 200iu hCG, or possibly a once a week shot of 500iu. However, it is most desirable to adhere to a lower more frequent dose of hCG to mimic the body’s natural LH release and minimize estrogen conversion. If you are starting hCG late in the cycle, one could calculate a rough estimate for their required hCG ‘kick starting’ dosage by multiplying 40iu x days of LH absence, since the testes will be desensitized, thus requiring a higher dose. (ie. 40iu x 60 days = 2400iu HCG dose)

Note: If following the on cycle hCG protocol, hCG should NOT be used for PCT.

Recap –

For preservation of testicular sensitivity, use 100iu hCG ED starting 7 days after your first AAS dose. At the end of the cycle, drop the hCG two weeks before the AAS clear the system. For example, you would drop hCG about the same time as your last Testosterone Enanthate shot. Or, if you are ending the cycle with orals, you would drop the hCG about 10 days before your last oral dose. This will allow for a sudden and even clearance in hormone levels, while initiating LH and FSH production from the pituitary, to begin stimulating your testes to produce testosterone. Remember, recovery doesn’t begin until you are off hCG since your body will not release its own LH until the hCG has cleared the system.

In conclusion, we have learned that utilizing hCG during a steroid cycle will significantly prevent testicular degeneration. This helps create a seamless transition from “on cycle” to “off cycle” thus avoiding the post cycle crash.



References -

1. Glycoprotein hormones: structure and function.
Pierce JG, Parsons TF 1981
Annu Rev Biochem 50:466–495

2. Low-Dose Human Chorionic Gonadotropin Maintains Intratesticular Testosterone in Normal Men with Testosterone-Induced Gonadotropin Suppression
Andrea D. Coviello, et al
J. Clin. Endocrinol. Metab., May 2005; 90: 2595 - 2602.

3. Luteinizing hormone on Leydig cell structure and function.
Mendis-Handagama SM
Histol Histopathol 12:869–882 (1997)

4. Leydig cell peroxisomes and sterol carrier protein-2 in luteinizing hormone-deprived rats
SM Mendis-Handagama, et al.
Endocrinology, Dec 1992; 131: 2839.

5. Effect of long term deprivation of luteinizing hormone on Leydig cell volume, Leydig cell number, and steroidogenic capacity of the rat testis.
Keeney DS, et al.
Endocrinology 1988; 123:2906–2915.

6.The Effects of Gonadotropin Suppression and Selective Replacement on Insulin-Like Factor 3 Secretion in Normal Adult Men
Katrine Bay, et al
J. Clin. Endocrinol. Metab., Mar 2006; 91: 1108 - 1111.

7. Successful treatment of anabolic steroid–induced azoospermia with human
chorionic gonadotropin and human menopausal gonadotropin
Dev Kumar Menon, et al.
FERTILITY AND STERILITY VOL. 79, SUPPL. 3, JUNE 2003

8. Testicular responsiveness to human chorionic godadotrophin during transient hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism induced by androgenic /anabolic steroids in power athletes
Hannu et al.
J. Steroid Biochem. Vol. 25, No. 1 pp. 109-112 (1986)

9. Comparison of testosterone, dihydrotestosterone, luteinizing hormone, and follicle-stimulating hormone in serum after injection of testosterone enanthate of testosterone cypionate .
Schulte-Beerbuhl M, et al 1980
Fertil Steril 33:201–203

10. Effects of chronic testosterone administration in normal men: safety and efficacy of high dosage testosterone and parallel dose-dependent suppression of luteinizing hormone, follicle-stimulating hormone, and sperm production.
Matsumoto AM, et al 1990
J Clin Endocrinol Metab 70:282–287

11. Effect of human chorionic gonadotropin on plasma steroid levels in young and old men.
Longcope C et al
Steroids 21:583–590 (1973)

12. Regulation of peptide hormone receptors and gonadal steroidogenesis.
Catt KJ, et al
Rec Prog Horm Res 1980; 36:557–622

13. Effect of human chorionic gonadotropin on the endocrine function of Papio testes
GV Katsiia, et al

So if I use adex and hcg throughout my cycle, then what should my pct consist of? just nolvadex ?

[BGIZZLE8629]

anyone?

[Swifto]

So if I use adex and hcg throughout my cycle, then what should my pct consist of? just nolvadex?

Mine's Toremifene, Clomid, Nolva.

I'll use 2 of those SERMs, not all 3.

[BGIZZLE8629]

alright cool.. ive decided to run the adex at .25mg eod throughout the cycle and hcg @ 200ius every 3rd day throughout the cycle.... considering buying some nolva after all and doing a nolva only pct 40/20/20/20 its either that or nolva + clomid
nolva: 20/20/20/20
clomid: 50/50/25/25

but regardless of running one or both ancilleries, i should start 2wks after last test inj. correct?

one more thing... stopping hcg 1wk prior to last test inj. and running adex up until last inj day is the best approach towards pct right?

[Swifto]

alright cool.. ive decided to run the adex at .25mg eod throughout the cycle and hcg @ 200ius every 3rd day throughout the cycle.... considering buying some nolva after all and doing a nolva only pct 40/20/20/20 its either that or nolva + clomid
nolva: 20/20/20/20
clomid: 50/50/25/25

but regardless of running one or both ancilleries, i should start 2wks after last test inj. correct?

one more thing... stopping hcg 1wk prior to last test inj. and running adex up until last inj day is the best approach towards pct right?

Read my sticky. Thats how I run HCG.