Creatine Mono and sugar?

[spickidy]

I always take my mono with about 30-35 grams of dextrose to deliver it but do not like the fact of taking that much sugar in except after workouts. Has anyone taken creatine mono in nothing but water and seen results?

[Swifto]

Of course...

I take mine with my PWO shake.

[RATTLEHEAD]

yea, don't use sugar with creatine unless you want diabetes. Any extra sugar in anything is bad. Thats why I always tell everyone cell tech is complete trash.

[IM708]

take w/ protein shake, good combo

[mmnjtwa]

I take it with Waximaize for a post w/o shake

[mho]

Take creatine post workout with a simple sugar (glucose, dextrose)

http://www.creatinemonohydrate.net/c...sletter_2.html

[eatrainrest]

go size on mono sucks and i just poop it out

[IM708]

Take creatine post workout with a simple sugar (glucose, dextrose)

http://www.creatinemonohydrate.net/c...sletter_2.html

No, don't take with simple sugar. It has been stated on here that the so called insulin spike post workout through dextrose supplementation isn't significant enough to make for better absorption.

[RATTLEHEAD]

Don't ever add extra sugar (of any form) to anything. PERIOD.

[mho]

No, don't take with simple sugar. It has been stated on here that the so called insulin spike post workout through dextrose supplementation isn't significant enough to make for better absorption.

Could you post a credible source? I know this is a widely debated topic. Thanks.

[IM708]

Could you post a credible source? I know this is a widely debated topic. Thanks.

No, info passed to me from people like Narkissos which I find him to be plenty credible. Take it or leave it, don't give a shit.

[Swifto]

No, info passed to me from people like Narkissos which I find him to be plenty credible. Take it or leave it, don't give a shit.

Really?

I was under the impression carbs PWO were good.

If foods with high GI (within reason) are acceptable in a PWO meal following a shake. Why wouldnt sugars, like Dex?

[IM708]

Really?

I was under the impression carbs PWO were good.

If foods with high GI (within reason) are acceptable in a PWO meal following a shake. Why wouldnt sugars, like Dex?

Carbs are good post workout when in the form of a complex carb or as waxy maize starch. The insulin spike idea is overrated in its ability to shuttle nutrients...that won't be the same if taking supplemental insulin. Dex is pure sugar as you know. It will be metabolized fast some getting converted into fat weight from the insulin spike and some used for recovery. So basically what I'm saying is there is no real true benefit to using dex vs having some oats.

[mho]

Really?

I was under the impression carbs PWO were good.

If foods with high GI (within reason) are acceptable in a PWO meal following a shake. Why wouldnt sugars, like Dex?

That's what we're debating. I too thought simple carbs were good pwo based on research I had read about in the past. You have to subscribe to read the whole article, but I've added the summary below.


Carbohydrate ingestion augments skeletal muscle creatine accumulation during creatine supplementation in humans
A. L. Green, E. Hultman, I. A. Macdonald, D. A. Sewell and P. L. Greenhaff
Department of Physiology and Pharmacology, University Medical School, Queen's Medical Center, Nottingham, United Kingdom.

"This study investigated the effect of carbohydrate (CHO) ingestion on skeletal muscle creatine (Cr) accumulation during Cr supplementation in humans. Muscle biopsy, urine, and plasma samples were obtained from 24 males before and after ingesting 5 g Cr in solution (group A) or 5 g Cr followed, 30 min later, by 93 g simple CHO in solution (group B) four times each day for 5 days. Supplementation resulted in an increase in muscle phosphocreatine (PCr), Cr, and total creatine (TCr; sum of PCr and Cr) concentration in groups A and B, but the increase in TCr in group B was 60% greater than in group A (P < 0.01). There was also a corresponding decrease in urinary Cr excretion in group B (P < 0.001). Creatine supplementation had no effect on serum insulin concentration, but Cr and CHO ingestion dramatically elevated insulin concentration (P < 0.001). These findings demonstrate that CHO ingestion substantially augments muscle Cr accumulation during Cr feeding in humans, which appears to be insulin mediated."

http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/co...urcetype=HWCIT

[Swifto]

Carbs are good post workout when in the form of a complex carb or as waxy maize starch. The insulin spike idea is overrated in its ability to shuttle nutrients...that won't be the same if taking supplemental insulin. Dex is pure sugar as you know. It will be metabolized fast some getting converted into fat weight from the insulin spike and some used for recovery. So basically what I'm saying is there is no real true benefit to using dex vs having some oats.

If some gets converted to fat, then surely it should put more emphasis on exactly how much to comsume, not none at all?

I'm going to look into this more as I still consume 30-50g dextrose in my PWO shake, then consume a low-moderate carb meal with high protein, low fats.

[RATTLEHEAD]

don't consume that much sugar with anything. I can care less what anyone says in here or what anyone copies and pastes from an article somewhere. I've been reading into this subject a lot lately, and none of my sources are online sources so it would be really tedious to sit here and cite all my sources. But i've been reading into a few different university studies on this matter. Conclusion: None show significant evidence enough to support it is beneficial. I even read something about it in a Mens Health magazine, I think it may have even of been last months issue..

[spickidy]

I believe the simple carbs are also overrated, since I have added dextrose for pwo I have gotten a little bit of fat on the lower ab region. Before, I used to use oats and sometimes potatoes and the recover time was the same and my six pack was still showing. Sugar stores fat and has no nutrition benefits.

[peachfuzz]

I hate this topic. simple carbs are NOT needed post workout. complex carbs will do just fine.

[flyguy7]

It seems like ideas on workout nutrition bounce back and forth all the time, and PWO is an important time, so I'd like to hear more opinions on this...
How can the idea of taking in simple sugars releasing higher insulin levels be overrated? ironmaiden you said the insulin from simple carbs will not be as significant as insulin supplementation. What makes you say this? Everything I know about human biology states that a large amount of sugar ingestion releases a large amount of insulin, basically funneling nurients to their destination to counter the increase in blood sugar? What has started this idea that CEE products are all crap now and we should slowly process protein into our muscles PWO? Isn't that partly the point of protein shakes after a workout too, the speed that they are absorbed?

[IM708]

How can the idea of taking in simple sugars releasing higher insulin levels be overrated?

It won't make a significant difference in the absorption/uptake of foods.

ironmaiden you said the insulin from simple carbs will not be as significant as insulin supplementation. What makes you say this?

So wait, you're comparing the amount of insulin that the body releases vs the amount that some BBs get from exogeneous sources? Your body itself does NOT release enough insulin to put you into shock/coma/death (this is NOT referring to diabetics). The insulin from exogeneous sources will be in a much greater quantity so will have a much greater anabolic effect.

Everything I know about human biology states that a large amount of sugar ingestion releases a large amount of insulin, basically funneling nurients to their destination to counter the increase in blood sugar?

Any food you eat spikes insulin in the blood whether your eating a salad, chugging a protein shake, or eating steak. The amount that it spikes will depend on what you eat. The amount that it spikes isn't enough to create much of an anabolic effect, if it did you wouldn't be seeing IFBB pros (and many others...) pinning themselves with insulin.

What has started this idea that CEE products are all crap now and we should slowly process protein into our muscles PWO?

No it's just a simple fact that CEE sucks ass. It absorbs better into the body but doesn't assimilate into the muscle better but worse than the all too common CM which makes it pointless. You should know that companies overhype products beyond what they can deliver (ex: the one).

Do you know how long it takes to create a positive nitrogen balance in your muscles post workout through whey protein supplementation, 20 minutes.

Isn't that partly the point of protein shakes after a workout too, the speed that they are absorbed?

I can assure you 20 minutes after ingestion is quick enough for an adequate recovery.

[flyguy7]

I didn't mean to imply that the spike one gets from downing a 50/50 mix of dex/malto was on the same level as a pro BBer injecting themselves with slin, but at the same time we do what we can. A higher insulin spike is still going to come from a high load of fast acting carbs, and that results in quicker transport of nutrients, gastric emptying, etc. Maybe I'm being dense, but I still don't understand how faster transport and absorption rates are overrated post workout. As for the CEE being 'crap,' that could be true, but i've read an awful lot of studies stating its benefit over monohydrate, and your statement that it 'absorbs better into the body but doesn't assimilate into the muscle better but worse' doesn't make a lot of sense. Do you have any studies on this? basis for most of these comments?

[DEE151]

I always take my mono with about 30-35 grams of dextrose to deliver it but do not like the fact of taking that much sugar in except after workouts. Has anyone taken creatine mono in nothing but water and seen results?

lol just finish a glass of water with my mono it has no taste or smell or nothing ya i take it with just a glass of water

[peachfuzz]

every study i have seen shows no increase in the rate of protein synthesis post workout with or without the addition of carbs. i have even seen some showing that it slows the rate. this should be the primary focus post workout.

as for glycogen replinishment...what is the rush? unless your training twice a day i dont see the urgency in immediate glycogen synthesis. i also dont see how flooding your body with glucose can somehow magically speed up the rate at which glycogen synthesis occurs. most of us train at least 24 hours apart. this is more then adequate time to refuel using complex carbs. not to mention the hour or so workouts we do does not even come close to fully depleting glycogen stores.

[IM708]

A higher insulin spike is still going to come from a high load of fast acting carbs, and that results in quicker transport of nutrients, gastric emptying, etc.

Peach already answered this for you.

Maybe I'm being dense,

You are dense.

As for the CEE being 'crap,' that could be true, but i've read an awful lot of studies stating its benefit over monohydrate,

I think you need to put down the muscle and fitness magazines.

and your statement that it 'absorbs better into the body but doesn't assimilate into the muscle better but worse' doesn't make a lot of sense. Do you have any studies on this? basis for most of these comments?

Actually I do.

[flyguy7]

I'll put your typical 'forum drama' rude comments aside and stay on track iron. So if I did stop ingesting sugars of any kind after a workout what would you recommend I eat? Should my shake also be replaced with chicken breast, if absorption time is not an issue? When I get some free time I'll compare some studies, because it seems like there could be validity to what you say

[IM708]

I'll put your typical 'forum drama' rude comments aside and stay on track iron. So if I did stop ingesting sugars of any kind after a workout what would you recommend I eat? Should my shake also be replaced with chicken breast, if absorption time is not an issue? When I get some free time I'll compare some studies, because it seems like there could be validity to what you say

No no no....chicken breat post workout would be a terrible choice. In no spot did I say that it absorption time isn't important. By itself whey protein is starting recovery within 20 mins after ingestion. You don't need to enhance it with sugar when the protein shake itself will spike the insulin to a degree and your body after exercising is already in a hypersensitive state. It takes 3-5 hours to completely digest chicken, so no it would be a terrible replacement. PWO, I'd recommend oats with a protein shake then an hour later have some chicken.

Creatine does the job of getting loaded into your muscles just fine without the use for sugar. After you get to the saturation point of creatine in the muscles it takes a mere 2-5g to keep that level intact, so in actuality it is unneccesary to take with sugar.

The only people who could possibly benefit from the use of sugar pwo is athletes who do multiple workouts within a day where it is critical to get as much recovery in as possible.

[sizerp]

The point of low-medium GI carbohydrate consumption PWO is to keep blood-insulin levels consistent! This makes most sense to me, I'd have to agree with RH!

[quaker48]

After a hard workout it is fine to use dextrose if your under 10%BF if not you need to use glut. and glycine in a high dose along with CMF WPI , and add creatine. I also recommend 10 grams of leucine.

[flyguy7]

Creatine does the job of getting loaded into your muscles just fine without the use for sugar. After you get to the saturation point of creatine in the muscles it takes a mere 2-5g to keep that level intact, so in actuality it is unneccesary to take with sugar.

Interesting, so if all we're doing by taking creatine everyday is keeping saturation levels up, is there really any point to taking it after a workout and not just, say, in the morning when I wake up?

[flyguy7]

and off the subject of creatine, Sizerp do you have any reason to keep insulin levels at a constant rate, other than your pancreas' long term health? Doesn't it make most sense to spike your insulin and fast transport nutrients/protein during the anabolic window?
quaker I take glutamine, but I'm not real familiar with glycine, why is that good PWO?

[IM708]

After a hard workout it is fine to use dextrose if your under 10%BF if not you need to use glut. and glycine in a high dose along with CMF WPI , and add creatine. I also recommend 10 grams of leucine.

Just take your money and throw it in the garbage.

Interesting, so if all we're doing by taking creatine everyday is keeping saturation levels up, is there really any point to taking it after a workout and not just, say, in the morning when I wake up?

After workout or in the morning are good windows. After a workout is good since you just 'burned' up some of the creatine you loaded and are then replenishing it. But if you want to do it in the morning when your body is in a hypersensitive state then that would also suffice.

Think of creatines mechanism this way: you fill up the gas tank to your car, you drive it around a while hence you burn up some of the fuel, you fill it up afterwards to replenish what you lost. Take creatine, burn it up during exercise, replenish afterwards.

[DEE151]

can i take creatine mono in the morning mix with my coffee?

[IM708]

can i take creatine mono in the morning mix with my coffee?

Umm it won't dissolve in it. If you'd like go for it. Supposedly caffeine depletes creatine from the body but I havn't seen any conclusive evidence either way.

[peachfuzz]

Umm it won't dissolve in it. If you'd like go for it. Supposedly caffeine depletes creatine from the body but I havn't seen any conclusive evidence either way.

^alot of knowledge regarding supps right here.

soak it all in boys...

[sizerp]

and off the subject of creatine, Sizerp do you have any reason to keep insulin levels at a constant rate, other than your pancreas' long term health? Doesn't it make most sense to spike your insulin and fast transport nutrients/protein during the anabolic window?
quaker I take glutamine, but I'm not real familiar with glycine, why is that good PWO?

To answer your question, yeah I'd want a spike PWO always, for packing on and replenishing glycogen stores. I personally use a 2:1 ratio carbs to protein. 30-40g whey + 60-80g carbs. usually oats or baked potatoes. I guess it's all preference, and dependent on your body type, goals, and training/diet routine though.

Think about it - whether you're bulking or cutting - you have probably 4-8 meals per day where you spike your insulin with carbohydrate. Do you eat dextrose for those meals other than your shake? No, probably not. Why mess up the homeostasis? Try carb cycling to change it up.

[quaker48]

[QUOTE=ironmaiden708;4689336]Just take your money and throw it in the garbage.

After workout or in the morning are good windows. After a workout is good since you just 'burned' up some of the creatine you loaded and are then replenishing it. But if you want to do it in the morning when your body is in a hypersensitive state then that would also suffice.

Think of creatines mechanism this way: you fill up the gas tank to your car, you drive it around a while hence you burn up some of the fuel, you fill it up afterwards to replenish what you lost. Take creatine, burn it up during exercise, replenish afterwa

.

[Swifto]

So...



Hyperinsulinaemia, hyperaminoacidaemia and post-exercise muscle anabolism: the search for the optimal recovery drink

Dietary supplements and other ergogenic aids are popular among athletes. Recent studies have shown that nutritional mixtures containing protein hydrolysates, added leucine, and high-glycaemic carbohydrates greatly augment insulin secretion compared with high-glycaemic carbohydrates only. When post-exercise hyperinsulinaemia is supported by hyperaminoacidaemia induced by protein hydrolysate and leucine ingestion, net protein deposition in muscle should occur. Thus, consumption of post-exercise recovery drinks containing these nutrients in conjunction with appropriate resistance training may lead to increased skeletal muscle hypertrophy and strength. However, the long-term effects on body composition and exercise performance remain to be determined.

British Journal of Sports Medicine.


Effects of ingesting protein with various forms of carbohydrate following resistance-exercise on substrate availability and markers of anabolism, catabolism, and immunity

Background

Ingestion of carbohydrate (CHO) and protein (PRO) following intense exercise has been reported to increase insulin levels, optimize glycogen resynthesis, enhance PRO synthesis, and lessen the immuno-suppressive effects of intense exercise. Since different forms of CHO have varying glycemic effects, the purpose of this study was to determine whether the type of CHO ingested with PRO following resistance-exercise affects blood glucose availability and insulin levels, markers of anabolism and catabolism, and/or general immune markers.
Methods
40 resistance-trained subjects performed a standardized resistance training workout and then ingested in a double blind and randomized manner 40 g of whey PRO with 120 g of sucrose (S), honey powder (H), or maltodextrin (M). A non-supplemented control group (C) was also evaluated. Blood samples were collected prior to and following exercise as well as 30, 60, 90, and 120 min after ingestion of the supplements. Data were analyzed by repeated measures ANOVA or ANCOVA using baseline values as a covariate if necessary.
Results
Glucose concentration 30 min following ingestion showed the H group (7.12 ± 0.2 mmol/L) to be greater than S (5.53 ± 0.6 mmol/L; p < 0.03); M (6.02 ± 0.8 mmol/L; p < 0.05), and C (5.44 ± 0.18 mmol/L; p < 0.0002) groups. No significant differences were observed among groups in glucose area under the curve (AUC) values, although the H group showed a trend versus control (p = 0.06). Insulin response for each treatment was significant by time (p < 0.0001), treatment (p < 0.0001) and AUC (p < 0.0001). 30-min peak post-feeding insulin for S (136.2 ± 15.6 uIU/mL), H (150.1 ± 25.39 uIU/mL), and M (154.8 ± 18.9 uIU/mL) were greater than C (8.7 ± 2.9 uIU/mL) as was AUC with no significant differences observed among types of CHO. No significant group × time effects were observed among groups in testosterone , cortisol, the ratio of testosterone to cortisol, muscle and liver enzymes, or general markers of immunity.
Conclusion
CHO and PRO ingestion following exercise significantly influences glucose and insulin concentrations. Although some trends were observed suggesting that H maintained blood glucose levels to a better degree, no significant differences were observed among types of CHO ingested on insulin levels. These findings suggest that each of these forms of CHO can serve as effective sources of CHO to ingest with PRO in and attempt to promote post-exercise anabolic responses.

J Int Soc Sports Nutr

THE EFFECTS OF LIQUID CARBOHYDRATE ON MARKERS OF ANABOLISM FOLLOWING HIGH INTENSITY RESISTANCE EXERCISE.
[H30D FREE COMMUNICATION/SLIDE NUTRITION AND RESISTANCE EXERCISE]
CONCLUSION:

A CHO compared to a PLC consumed before and after a high intensity resistance training session increased plasma [insulin]. Liquid CHO appears to lead to a more favorable anabolic post-workout environment, however our indirect measure of protein degradation ([NH3+]) did not demonstrate this. Funded by Gatorade Sports Science Institute.

The American College of Sports Medicine