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  1. #1
    Aggression is offline Member
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    5 g of creatine enough?

    I bought some effervescent creatine that contains 5 g of creatine and 5 g of glutamine per serving. It recomends taking 1 serving daily prior to training. No loading phase necessary.

    Is 5 g of creatine daily enough?

    My full diet and supp schedule is here:

    http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...87#post1198687

  2. #2
    nsa
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    5 grams ED of creatine is what most people use.

  3. #3
    DBarcelo's Avatar
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    5 Grams is enough and you really shouldn't go any higher than that unless you're a very large person. Creatine is very safe until you start taking in too much of it.

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    Aggression is offline Member
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    I am 24 6' 215 with some body fat.

    So, along with my diet and training, I can get good benefits from only taking 5 g of effervescent creatine a day?

    Here is the product I'm taking:

    http://www.performancebiolabs.com/pr...sku_base=11007

  5. #5
    DBarcelo's Avatar
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    That'll be good. That formula would be good if you take it a little before you work out because of the phosphates in it.

  6. #6
    Jantzen4k's Avatar
    Jantzen4k is offline Anabolic Nittany Lion
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    some people believe in stacking it (taking 20g a day, 4 5g servings thoughout the day, for a week and then taking the 5g a day)
    >>its your preference

  7. #7
    DBarcelo's Avatar
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    That's the loading period. It's really not needed. If a person had no creatine in their body at all (which is impossible), then you would need to load it. But since you always have creatine in your body, there's no need to load it. It just empties your bottle quicker so you can go and buy another one.

  8. #8
    RJstrong's Avatar
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    No it's not enough... creatine is the biggest scam in the industry... it simply does not work... at best you have expensive urine... creatine just turns into creatinine a waste product... save your money and use something that we all know works... GEAR!

  9. #9
    Aggression is offline Member
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    So creatine is worthless?

  10. #10
    Jantzen4k's Avatar
    Jantzen4k is offline Anabolic Nittany Lion
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    no, creatine works for some and not for others...my partner will gain 5lbs from creatine (5g a day) but another kid i know gains squat! id stick to gear

  11. #11
    nsa
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    Quote Originally Posted by RJstrong
    No it's not enough... creatine is the biggest scam in the industry... it simply does not work... at best you have expensive urine... creatine just turns into creatinine a waste product... save your money and use something that we all know works... GEAR!
    Are you kidding... Creatine works, and its a bad idea to say screw it and just use gear. Protein, creatine and multivitamins are proven to work.

  12. #12
    nsa
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    Comparing people who know at the gym is not fair cuz some eat weel and some eat bad, some train well and some train bad. Too many variables, stick to scientific studies that have control groups and test groups.

  13. #13
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    Creatine is cheap as hell and works awsome. The only side is that its the gateway drug and you start using everything else after you see the effects of it. At least thats how I got started.

  14. #14
    RJstrong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nsa
    Comparing people who know at the gym is not fair cuz some eat weel and some eat bad, some train well and some train bad. Too many variables, stick to scientific studies that have control groups and test groups.
    it is too bad that all the scientific studies are done by the same companies
    selling creatine... creatine just happens to be part of a billion dollar industry... pretty creative and brainwashing marketing... notice that every mag pushing the stuff has a pro bodybuilder holding a bottle and cheezin'...on the other hand i am a true believer in mind over matter, so if you really think it works it probably will!!! i will hold firm on my comments on creatine, and i do think supplements are useful... protein, vitamins... but most importantly diet is the key... i used creatine up until about 4yrs. ago... up until my college anatomy teacher broke down the digestive process that creatine would undertake... all i am pointing out is that the magic of snake oils should be questioned... and creative marketing that helps to make companies millions is sometimes just false... and the science that backs supplement companies is not regulated by the FDA... just read the label!

  15. #15
    nsa
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    Quote Originally Posted by RJstrong
    it is too bad that all the scientific studies are done by the same companies
    selling creatine... creatine just happens to be part of a billion dollar industry... pretty creative and brainwashing marketing... notice that every mag pushing the stuff has a pro bodybuilder holding a bottle and cheezin'...on the other hand i am a true believer in mind over matter, so if you really think it works it probably will!!! i will hold firm on my comments on creatine, and i do think supplements are useful... protein, vitamins... but most importantly diet is the key... i used creatine up until about 4yrs. ago... up until my college anatomy teacher broke down the digestive process that creatine would undertake... all i am pointing out is that the magic of snake oils should be questioned... and creative marketing that helps to make companies millions is sometimes just false... and the science that backs supplement companies is not regulated by the FDA... just read the label!
    There are studies done by labs other than those owned by supplement companies. What you are referring to is stuff like muscletech and those supplements, but there are scientific studies done of protein and creatine often, even some less than popular supps by third-party labs for research into the given compound.

  16. #16
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    I hate to beat this creatine thing to death but i think it's important... did you know that ingesting extra creatine decreases the body's own synthesis of creatine, and it is not known whether natural synthesis recovers after long-term creatine supplementation... it simply needs more research to determine its safety and its value!

  17. #17
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    nsa you are correct... although, many studies have failed to find a performance-enhancing effect of creatine supplementation.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier of Misfortune
    Creatine is cheap as hell and works awsome. The only side is that its the gateway drug and you start using everything else after you see the effects of it. At least thats how I got started.
    i couldnt agree more. it starts with the protein/amino acids, then goes to creatine, then goes to prohormones (for some) then before you know it you see people on roids and do the samee

  19. #19
    daos is offline Associate Member
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    i hate the **** stuff. doesnt ever do **** for me. guess everyones different.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by RJstrong
    No it's not enough... creatine is the biggest scam in the industry... it simply does not work... at best you have expensive urine... creatine just turns into creatinine a waste product... save your money and use something that we all know works... GEAR!

    Creatine doesn't just turn into creatinine. Creatinine is a waste product produced my muscles. Even if you don't suppliment creatine, you still have creatinine in your urine. Creatine gets absorbed by your body, gets sent to muscle cells, the muscle cells use the creatine directly and indirectly (I'm not going to get into the whole process), and then creatinine is produced when the muscles have used it.

    Yes, creatine does work, your muscles wouldn't work very well without it. When you eat, you are taking in creatine in trace amounts and all of the trace amounts of creatine you take in add up to enough to power your skelital muscles.

  21. #21
    DBarcelo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RJstrong
    nsa you are correct... although, many studies have failed to find a performance-enhancing effect of creatine supplementation.
    You also have to remember that many studies done when anabolic steroids were first developed failed to find any performance enhancing effects either.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by RJstrong
    I hate to beat this creatine thing to death but i think it's important... did you know that ingesting extra creatine decreases the body's own synthesis of creatine, and it is not known whether natural synthesis recovers after long-term creatine supplementation... it simply needs more research to determine its safety and its value!

    The body doesn't synthesize it's own creatine. Creatine has to be ingested daily. So, there is no creatine synthesis recovery. That is the reason that some people see a huge difference when supplimenting creatine and some see no difference at all. It's dependent on your eating habbits. Creatine is found mainly in meats and vegitarians don't eat meat, so they have very low creatine. If a vegitarian suppliments creatine and a person that eats a lot of red meat suppliments creatine, they are going the have very different results. The meat eater isn't going to see much difference if any and the vegitarian is going to see a huge difference. If we all synthesized our own creatine, this would not be the case.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aggression
    So creatine is worthless?
    No, creatine isn't worthless, but the effects do very from person to person. For the average person the effects are really pretty mild, but still worth it. Even if you don't see any real outward affects, it helps your muscles work a little more effeciently.

  24. #24
    RJstrong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DBarcelo
    The body doesn't synthesize it's own creatine. Creatine has to be ingested daily. So, there is no creatine synthesis recovery. That is the reason that some people see a huge difference when supplimenting creatine and some see no difference at all. It's dependent on your eating habbits. Creatine is found mainly in meats and vegitarians don't eat meat, so they have very low creatine. If a vegitarian suppliments creatine and a person that eats a lot of red meat suppliments creatine, they are going the have very different results. The meat eater isn't going to see much difference if any and the vegitarian is going to see a huge difference. If we all synthesized our own creatine, this would not be the case.
    you are wrong my friend... creatine is a small, amino acid-like molecule that is both synthesized in the body and derived from foods... relaxed muscle fibers produce more ATP than they need for resting metabolism. The excess ATP is used to synthesize creatine phosphate...the enzyme creatine kinase (CK) catalyzes the transfer of the high-energy phophate groups from ATP to creatine, forming creatine phosphate and ADP...shall i continue... creatine phosphate is 3-6x more plentiful than ATP in the sarcoplasm of a relaxed muscle fiber. when contraction begins and the ADP level starts to rise, (CK) catalyzes the transfer of a high-energy phosphate group from creatine phosphate back to ADP. this direct phosphorylation reaction quickly forms new ATP molecules. Together, creatine phosphate and ATP provide enough energy for muscles to contract maximally for about 15 seconds. this amount of energy is sufficient for maximal short bursts of activity- for example a 100 meter dash... nothing personal but accurate info. is always the best info.

  25. #25
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    Adults need to synthesize and ingest a total of about 2 grams of creatine daily to make up for the urinary loss of creatinine, the breakdown product of creatine!!! so to answer the original question 5 grams will be plenty!!!

  26. #26
    DBarcelo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RJstrong
    you are wrong my friend... creatine is a small, amino acid-like molecule that is both synthesized in the body and derived from foods... relaxed muscle fibers produce more ATP than they need for resting metabolism. The excess ATP is used to synthesize creatine phosphate...the enzyme creatine kinase (CK) catalyzes the transfer of the high-energy phophate groups from ATP to creatine, forming creatine phosphate and ADP...shall i continue... creatine phosphate is 3-6x more plentiful than ATP in the sarcoplasm of a relaxed muscle fiber. when contraction begins and the ADP level starts to rise, (CK) catalyzes the transfer of a high-energy phosphate group from creatine phosphate back to ADP. this direct phosphorylation reaction quickly forms new ATP molecules. Together, creatine phosphate and ATP provide enough energy for muscles to contract maximally for about 15 seconds. this amount of energy is sufficient for maximal short bursts of activity- for example a 100 meter dash... nothing personal but accurate info. is always the best info.

    Okay, no, the body doesn't synthesize creatine (once again). No, ATP isn't used to CREATE creatine. No, creatine kinase doesn't catalize anything from ATP into creatine, it turns plasma creatine into usfull form for the muscles to use (I'm too tired to get into the micro biology of it right now, but I'll do it sometime in the morning if you like). But I will tell you that you have things a little confused. It does alter ADP, but it doesn't turn creatine phosphate into ADP, it gives it's phosphate atom to ADP to turn it back into ATP so it can take one more pass before completely breaking down the phosphate chain. Yes, the creatine does help the muscle work a little better and creatine supplimentation does help mainly with short bursts of energy. And yes, accurate information is always best, which is why I feel that I must point out that you are not giving accurate information.

  27. #27
    DBarcelo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RJstrong
    Adults need to synthesize and ingest a total of about 2 grams of creatine daily to make up for the urinary loss of creatinine, the breakdown product of creatine!!! so to answer the original question 5 grams will be plenty!!!
    And as I said before, creatinine is not the breakdown product of creatine. The creatine has already been broken down and altered before the muscles have used it. Creatinine is the breakdown product of muscles.

  28. #28
    DBarcelo's Avatar
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    Actually, I will retract one part of what I said. The body can combine arganine, glycine and methionone in the liver, pancrease and the kidneys in order to create it's own creatine if the body is not getting creatine from the diet. But that process is not normal and really should not happen. But since the body needs creatine for the muscles, it will combine things in order to fulfil it's need. So, I will say that the body doesn't normally synthesize it's own creatine. You normally have to ingest it, but your body will synthesize it's own creatine if it absolutely has to.

    You kind of jogged my memory with your explination of how the body creates it's own creatine, which is way off base. Like you said, accuracy is important.

  29. #29
    DBarcelo's Avatar
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    I may as well fight my tiredness and go into it now. It's called either creatine phosphate or phosphocreatine. Creatine is sent to the skelital muscles and is converted into phosphocreatine (so that it can actually enter the muscle). Plasma creatine and serum creatine levels are monitored to determine if the body needs to create it's own creatine. Elevated serum creatine levels raise the plasma creatine levels and that shuts down the body's production of creatine. If you eat red meat and/or suppliment creatine, your body stops producing it's own creatine (which is really the norm). Elevated plasma creatine levels can be dangerous because the body can't store but so much creatine and the body can't filter out creatine, it can only filter out creatinine. After the creatine is turned into phosphocreatine and the phosphate is removed from the creatine, then it becomes creatinine and is expelled from the body. It's the removal of the phosphate not the breakdown of the creatine itself that causes it to become creatinine.

    There is no permanent shutdown of creatine production nor is there a posability of causing the body to no longer be able to pruduce creatine, because the body only needs to combine three very simple things in order to create it and there are three organs that are capable of doing so. When the body does create it's own creatine, it's normally at very low amounts anyway.

  30. #30
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    I respectfully disagree... and i am not confused at all...muscle fibers have 3 ways to produce ATP 1. from creatine phosphate, 2. by anaerobic cellular respiration, and 3. by aerobic cellular respiration... whereas using creatine phosphate for ATP production is unique to muscle fibers, all body cells make ATP by the reactions of anaerobic and aerobic cellular respiration... don't get mad i am enjoying this debate... but honestly research what i am saying, i promise this info. is accurate. i will do the same with your info.

  31. #31
    DBarcelo's Avatar
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    Creatine phosphate doesn't CREATE ATP, it reconverts ADP back into ATP, like I said, by way of giving it's phosphate atom to the ADP.

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    DBarcelo's Avatar
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    And I'm not getting mad, I'm just tired and my brain isn't functioning at 100% right now. I'm just a little slow to recall.

  33. #33
    RJstrong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DBarcelo
    I may as well fight my tiredness and go into it now. It's called either creatine phosphate or phosphocreatine. Creatine is sent to the skelital muscles and is converted into phosphocreatine (so that it can actually enter the muscle). Plasma creatine and serum creatine levels are monitored to determine if the body needs to create it's own creatine. Elevated serum creatine levels raise the plasma creatine levels and that shuts down the body's production of creatine. If you eat red meat and/or suppliment creatine, your body stops producing it's own creatine (which is really the norm). Elevated plasma creatine levels can be dangerous because the body can't store but so much creatine and the body can't filter out creatine, it can only filter out creatinine. After the creatine is turned into phosphocreatine and the phosphate is removed from the creatine, then it becomes creatinine and is expelled from the body. It's the removal of the phosphate not the breakdown of the creatine itself that causes it to become creatinine.

    There is no permanent shutdown of creatine production nor is there a posability of causing the body to no longer be able to pruduce creatine, because the body only needs to combine three very simple things in order to create it and there are three organs that are capable of doing so. When the body does create it's own creatine, it's normally at very low amounts anyway.
    this has been enjoyable... this surely has to be one of the most intellectual debates on this forum in a while... i look foward to matching wits with you in the near future... but like you said i'm tired... chat with you soon!!!

  34. #34
    DBarcelo's Avatar
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    Later.

  35. #35
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    I want everyone to know where my info. is coming from... PRINCIPLES OF ANATOMY & PHYSIOLOGY... tenth edition by Tortora & Grabowski... Copyright 2003 biological sciences textbooks Inc. and Sandra Reynolds Grabowski... I purchased this text at Brevard Community College from the campus bookstore... this is the current text being used for A&P 1 & 2. Publisher info. is as follows... John Wiley & Sons Inc. 111 River Street, Hoboken, NJ 07030 (201)748-6008
    Last edited by RJstrong; 08-13-2004 at 11:28 AM.

  36. #36
    nsa
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    We need to get einstein in on this discussion to get a third party answer to this question...

  37. #37
    RJstrong's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nsa
    We need to get einstein in on this discussion to get a third party answer to this question...
    no doubt... but you have to admit the human body and its physiology is amazing... not easy to understand... but for me that is the fun... challenging yet very interesting... this happens to be my field of study...although i would rather discuss training and chat about principles i have incorporated to become a successful powerlifter!!!
    Last edited by RJstrong; 08-13-2004 at 02:02 PM.

  38. #38
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    So your new book is saying that creatine CREATES ATP, and that creatinine is nothing but the waste product of creatine? I find that kinda hard to believe.

    I do agree with you that the small amount of creatine that can be produced by the body can be shut down by the supplimentation of creatine, but you have to be supplimenting enough of it to raise your serum creatine level.

  39. #39
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    Having high sustained serum and plasma creatine levels are a problem, but causing the body to not be able to produce creatine any more isn't one of them. By the time that happens the person would probably be dead anyway. Having high levels of plasma and serum creatine levels causes the body to dump creatine into parts of the body that it normally wouldn't, which causes most of the problems. Hyperthyroidism can occur. The body will stop dumping creatine into the muscles (at the time I learned about all of this, they didn't know why that happened, but they knew that it happened). Your blood wouldn't be able to transport everything that it's supposed to be transporting because of the excess creatine. The kidneys would slowly be overworked and there's a potential for clogging in the kidneys because of the excess creatine.

  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by RJstrong
    I want everyone to know where my info. is coming from... PRINCIPLES OF ANATOMY & PHYSIOLOGY... tenth edition by Tortora & Grabowski... Copyright 2003 biological sciences textbooks Inc. and Sandra Reynolds Grabowski... I purchased this text at Brevard Community College from the campus bookstore... this is the current text being used for A&P 1 & 2. Publisher info. is as follows... John Wiley & Sons Inc. 111 River Street, Hoboken, NJ 07030 (201)748-6008

    Trying to sell a book or something?? Sounds more like a sales pitch. I'm not going to bother saying where I get my info from. I'm sure some people around here know because of other posts I've written, but I'm not going to get into it now. I'll just say that I've spent a whole lot of time in school and I know what I'm talking about.

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