Dhea

[groundandpoundpwr21]

Anyones opinions on dhea and fat loss? I searched and some say its useless and some say they liked it. Whats your take and at what dose?

[Warrior]

Kinda depends on your age and your current DHEA levels... people naturally deffecient will have a better response... like women.

[Papi93]

I just found out an interesting detail about DHEA from a fellow member. Trib converts into DHEA and e said that it is superior to tribulus for raising test levels. It's a matter of eliminating the middle-man. Don't get me wrong, it is a poor test booster but better than trib.

[groundandpoundpwr21]

i might get some at walmart and try it out at 25mgs or 50mgs a day see what my body thinks of its fat burning ability.

[Warrior]

I just found out an interesting detail about DHEA from a fellow member. Trib converts into DHEA and e said that it is superior to tribulus for raising test levels. It's a matter of eliminating the middle-man. Don't get me wrong, it is a poor test booster but better than trib.

Tribulis works via LH (telling the body it needs test) - DHEA is a precursor to Andro... which is a precursor to testosterone itself. So DHEA has to go through a couple extra steps before it actually converts to the all mighty androgen. If I were to suggest a man to do one or the other - a quality Tribulis product would win hands down... DHEA for women since their levels are low.

But either one of these products works best when natural androgen levels are supressed - not for raising above normal levels... such as overtraining or when doing a lot of cardio...

[macrophage69alpha]

I just found out an interesting detail about DHEA from a fellow member. Trib converts into DHEA and e said that it is superior to tribulus for raising test levels.

that "fellow member" is incorrect.

tribulus contains phytoestrogens that may stimulate LH.

DHEA is a hormonal substrate after cholesterol and before androstenedione.

[macrophage69alpha]

dhea is is effective for cortisol suppression (which may aid in fat loss), its not effective as an anabolic agent except in the elderly and women.

[Bryan2]

that "fellow member" is incorrect.

tribulus contains phytoestrogens that may stimulate LH.

DHEA is a hormonal substrate after cholesterol and before androstenedione.

Never seen one study showing substantial increased LH levels and im sure you agree

check out this study on tribulus

Phytochemicals and the breakthrough of traditional herbs in the management of sexual dysfunctions.

Adimoelja A.

School of medicine 'Hang Tuah' University, Teaching and Naval Hospital,Surabaya, Indonesia.

Traditional herbs have been a revolutionary breakthrough in the management of erectile dysfunction and have become known world-wide as an 'instant' treatment. The modern view of the management of erectile dysfunction subscribes to a single etiology, i.e. the mechanism of erection. A large number of pharmacological agents are orally consumed and vasoactive agents inserted intraurethrally or injected intrapenially to regain good erection. Modern phytochemicals have developed from traditional herbs. Phytochemicals focus their mechanism of he****g action to the root cause, i.e. the inability to control the proper function of the whole body system. Hence phytochemicals manage erectile dysfunction in the frame of sexual dysfunction as a whole entity. Protodioscin is a phytochemical agent derived from Tribulus terrestris L plant, which has been clinically proven to improve sexual desire and enhance erection via the conversion of protodioscine to DHEA (De-Hydro-Epi-Androsterone). Preliminary observations suggest that Tribulus terrestris L grown on different soils does not consistently produce the active component Protodioscin. Further photochemical studies of many other herbal plants are needed to explain the inconsistent results found with other herbal plants, such as in diversities of Ginseng, Eurycoma longifolia, Pimpinella pruacen, Muara puama, Ginkgo biloba, Yohimbe etc.

PMID: 10849504 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[Warrior]

Never seen one study showing substantial increased LH levels and im sure you agree

check out this study on tribulus

Phytochemicals and the breakthrough of traditional herbs in the management of sexual dysfunctions.

Adimoelja A.

School of medicine 'Hang Tuah' University, Teaching and Naval Hospital,Surabaya, Indonesia.

Traditional herbs have been a revolutionary breakthrough in the management of erectile dysfunction and have become known world-wide as an 'instant' treatment. The modern view of the management of erectile dysfunction subscribes to a single etiology, i.e. the mechanism of erection. A large number of pharmacological agents are orally consumed and vasoactive agents inserted intraurethrally or injected intrapenially to regain good erection. Modern phytochemicals have developed from traditional herbs. Phytochemicals focus their mechanism of he****g action to the root cause, i.e. the inability to control the proper function of the whole body system. Hence phytochemicals manage erectile dysfunction in the frame of sexual dysfunction as a whole entity. Protodioscin is a phytochemical agent derived from Tribulus terrestris L plant, which has been clinically proven to improve sexual desire and enhance erection via the conversion of protodioscine to DHEA (De-Hydro-Epi-Androsterone). Preliminary observations suggest that Tribulus terrestris L grown on different soils does not consistently produce the active component Protodioscin. Further photochemical studies of many other herbal plants are needed to explain the inconsistent results found with other herbal plants, such as in diversities of Ginseng, Eurycoma longifolia, Pimpinella pruacen, Muara puama, Ginkgo biloba, Yohimbe etc.

PMID: 10849504 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

I hear Bulgarian Trib is the real miracle worker...

[Bryan2]

To tell you the thruth ive tried VERY potent tribulus before and serveral different brands ive also had bloodwork taken while using 2 different brands(for other reasons but test was included) and Ive never felt any different or seen anything worthwhile with taking it.

Some try to use it as a test booster and in all reality it doesnt really work for this purpose

It does a semi decent job at libido raising though

But I would still take tongat ali over it anyday as that herb is particularly potent in my experience.

just my observations though.

[macrophage69alpha]

Never seen one study showing substantial increased LH levels and im sure you agree

agree.

will one up you

J Ethnopharmacol. 2005 Oct 3;101(1-3):319-23. Related Articles, Links


The aphrodisiac herb Tribulus terrestris does not influence the androgen production in young men.

Neychev VK, Mitev VI.

Department of Chemistry and Biochemistry, Medical University, 2 Zdrave str., Sofia-1431, Bulgaria. [email protected]

OBJECTIVE: The aim of the current study is to investigate the influence of Tribulus terrestris extract on androgen metabolism in young males. DESIGN AND METHODS: Twenty-one healthy young 20-36 years old men with body weight ranging from 60 to 125 kg were randomly separated into three groups-two experimental (each n=7) and a control (placebo) one (n=7). The experimental groups were named TT1 and TT2 and the subjects were assigned to consume 20 and 10 mg/kg body weight per day of Tribulus terrestris extract, respectively, separated into three daily intakes for 4 weeks. Testosterone , androstenedione and luteinizing hormone levels in the serum were measured 24 h before supplementation (clear probe), and at 24, 72, 240, 408 and 576 h from the beginning of the supplementation. RESULTS: There was no significant difference between Tribulus terrestris supplemented groups and controls in the serum testosterone (TT1 (mean+/-S.D.: 15.75+/-1.75 nmol/l); TT2 (mean+/-S.D.: 16.32+/-1.57 nmol/l); controls (mean+/-S.D.: 17.74+/-1.09 nmol/l) (p>0.05)), androstenedione (TT1 (mean+/-S.D.: 1.927+/-0.126 ng/ml); TT2 (mean+/-S.D.: 2.026+/-0.256 ng/ml); controls (mean+/-S.D.: 1.952+/-0.236 ng/ml) (p>0.05)) or luteinizing hormone (TT1 (mean+/-S.D.: 4.662+/-0.274U/l); TT2 (mean+/-S.D.: 4.103+/-0.869U/l); controls (mean+/-S.D.: 4.170+/-0.406U/l) (p>0.05)) levels. All results were within the normal range. The findings in the current study anticipate that Tribulus terrestris steroid saponins possess neither direct nor indirect androgen-increasing properties. The study will be extended in the clarifying the probable mode of action of Tribulus terrestris steroid saponins.

Pharmazie. 2004 Apr;59(4):294-6. Related Articles, Links


Steroidal saponins from Dioscorea panthaica and their cytotoxic activity.

Dong M, Feng XZ, Wang BX, Ikejima T, Wu LJ.

Department of Cell Biology, Neurobiology, and Anatomy, University of Cincinnati, Ohio, USA.

A new steroidal saponin, dioscoreside E (1), and a known compound, protodioscin (2), were isolated from an ethanol extract of the rhizomes of Dioscorea panthaica. The structure of 1 was established as 3-O-[bis-alpha-L-rhamnopyranosyl-(1 --> 2 and 1 --> 4)-beta-D-glucopyranosyl]-26-O-beta-D-glucopyranosyl-20(R)-methoxy-25(R)-furosta-5,22(23)-diene-3beta,26-diol, on the basis of spectral and chemical evidence. Compounds 1 and 2 showed cytotoxic activity against a panel of tumor cell lines

its quite likely that any aphodesiac properties of tribulus are due to phytoestrogenic chemicals.

[sputnik]

I must say I've not really made up my mind over DHEA taken orally for fat loss.

However, transdermal application of 7-OXO DHEA as used in Ab-Solved or when added to Matrix-Abs (localised delivery) works a treat.

[macrophage69alpha]

I must say I've not really made up my mind over DHEA taken orally for fat loss.

However, transdermal application of 7-OXO DHEA as used in Ab-Solved or when added to Matrix-Abs (localised delivery) works a treat.

transdermal DHEA is more effective than transdermal 7-oxo. DHEA is more effective than its sulfate(which is all that 7oxo is) and converts to anyways.

[prolangtum]

I must say I've not really made up my mind over DHEA taken orally for fat loss.

remeber, oral DHEA is not a good idea


http://forum.avantlabs.com/index.php...ic=15135&st=30

Mol Pharmacol. 2003 Mar;63(3):722-31. Related Articles, Links


Dehydroepiandrosterone affects the expression of multiple genes in rat liver including 11 beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase type 1: a cDNA array analysis.

Gu S, Ripp SL, Prough RA, Geoghegan TE.

Department of Biochemistry and Molecular Biology, the University of Louisville, School of Medicine, Louisville, Kentucky 40292, USA.

Dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) is a C-19 adrenal steroid precursor to the gonadal steroids . In humans, circulating levels of DHEA, as its sulfated conjugate, are high at puberty and throughout early adulthood but decline with age. Dietary supplementation to maintain high levels of DHEA purportedly has beneficial effects on cognitive memory, the immune system, and fat and carbohydrate metabolism. In rodents, DHEA is a peroxisome proliferator that induces genes for the classical peroxisomal and microsomal enzymes associated with this response. These effects are mediated through activation of peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor alpha (PPAR alpha). However, DHEA can affect the expression of genes independently of PPAR alpha, including the gene for the major inducible drug and xenobiotic metabolizing enzyme, cytochrome P450 3A23. To elucidate the biochemistry associated with DHEA treatment, we employed a cDNA gene expression array using liver RNA from rats treated with DHEA or the classic peroxisome proliferator nafenopin. Principal components analysis identified 30 to 35 genes whose expression was affected by DHEA and/or nafenopin. Some were genes previously identified as PPAR-responsive genes. Changes in expression of several affected genes were verified by quantitative reverse transcriptase-polymerase chain reaction. These included aquaporin 3, which was induced by DHEA and to a lesser extent nafenopin, nuclear tyrosine phosphatase, which was induced by both agents, and 11 beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase 1, which was decreased by treatment with DHEA in a dose-dependent fashion. Regulation of 11 beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase 1 expression is important since the enzyme is believed to amplify local glucocorticoid sign****g, and its repression may cause some of the metabolic effects associated with DHEA.

[BajanBastard]

What about the 7-keto and delta-5-e?

[prolangtum]

they do not suppress cortisol in the liver the way DHEA does.

[prolangtum]

they do not suppress cortisol in the liver the way DHEA does.

take into consideration im refering to ORAL DHEA, not transdermal.

[sputnik]

remeber, oral DHEA is not a good idea


http://forum.avantlabs.com/index.php...ic=15135&st=30

Mol Pharmacol. 2003 Mar;63(3):722-31. Related Articles, Links


Dehydroepiandrosterone affects the expression of multiple genes in rat liver including 11 beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase type 1: a cDNA array analysis.

Gu S, Ripp SL, Prough RA, Geoghegan TE.

Department of Biochemistry and Molecular Biology, the University of Louisville, School of Medicine, Louisville, Kentucky 40292, USA.

Dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) is a C-19 adrenal steroid precursor to the gonadal steroids. In humans, circulating levels of DHEA, as its sulfated conjugate, are high at puberty and throughout early adulthood but decline with age. Dietary supplementation to maintain high levels of DHEA purportedly has beneficial effects on cognitive memory, the immune system, and fat and carbohydrate metabolism. In rodents, DHEA is a peroxisome proliferator that induces genes for the classical peroxisomal and microsomal enzymes associated with this response. These effects are mediated through activation of peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor alpha (PPAR alpha). However, DHEA can affect the expression of genes independently of PPAR alpha, including the gene for the major inducible drug and xenobiotic metabolizing enzyme, cytochrome P450 3A23. To elucidate the biochemistry associated with DHEA treatment, we employed a cDNA gene expression array using liver RNA from rats treated with DHEA or the classic peroxisome proliferator nafenopin. Principal components analysis identified 30 to 35 genes whose expression was affected by DHEA and/or nafenopin. Some were genes previously identified as PPAR-responsive genes. Changes in expression of several affected genes were verified by quantitative reverse transcriptase-polymerase chain reaction. These included aquaporin 3, which was induced by DHEA and to a lesser extent nafenopin, nuclear tyrosine phosphatase, which was induced by both agents, and 11 beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase 1, which was decreased by treatment with DHEA in a dose-dependent fashion. Regulation of 11 beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase 1 expression is important since the enzyme is believed to amplify local glucocorticoid sign****g, and its repression may cause some of the metabolic effects associated with DHEA.

exactly.....which is why i've not been convinced before ....7-OXO transdermally however, I luv

[AnatomicallyBlessed]

used to work a well known nutrition store e few years back, and i have hear testamonials from 30 yr old men saying that dhea has made them young, like in their peak but better

[macrophage69alpha]

exactly.....which is why i've not been convinced before ....7-OXO transdermally however, I luv

why dont you delineate why that study reaffirms your beliefs....

[prolangtum]

why dont you delineate why that study reaffirms your beliefs....

we dont make absolved anymore....so arguing the pros and cons of topical 7-oxo is a moot point for now. those were his anedoctal results, and he liked the result.

[macrophage69alpha]

we dont make absolved anymore....so arguing the pros and cons of topical 7-oxo is a moot point for now. those were his anedoctal results, and he liked the result.

you know what was meant. It was not a jab at topical 7-oxo nor at avant. It was that one implied understanding.. when no such understanding existed.


though to answer your "moot point"... IMHO, based on the research and anecdotal evidence, DHEA is better that 7-oxo for a variety of reasons....

as a note- 7-oxo does convert to estrogen (though it has widely and erroneously been claimed otherwise)

[sputnik]

you know what was meant. It was not a jab at topical 7-oxo nor at avant. It was that one implied understanding.. when no such understanding existed.


though to answer your "moot point"... IMHO, based on the research and anecdotal evidence, DHEA is better that 7-oxo for a variety of reasons....

as a note- 7-oxo does convert to estrogen (though it has widely and erroneously been claimed otherwise)

well Macro, my response was not directly related to Pro's quote on DHEA but to Pro's comment just before...my fault for quoting the whole thing...

my response was based on the discussions on various boards that I have seen, that the results with regards to DHEA taken orally for fat loss are mediocre...as a supplement for increasng test levels, which is how DHEA is most often referred to (more so than for fat loss)? Again, mediocre results, even for over 35's. not to say that no one benefits from it, some obviously have.

[SSben]

the real question is at what age should u be suppllementing with dhea?

[leansauce]

the real question is at what age should u be suppllementing with dhea?

yea what age?