Tribulus,Tongkat Ali or Avena Sativa

**Sithstole** · 02-12-2004, 09:26 PM

What should I buy?

I was thinking Avena Sativa and Tribulus since I can get them in powder form from BAC. But the tongkat ali I have no idea what brand to get or if its any good.

I was gonna run it with a cycle of fina and then after the cycle for PCT.

What do you bros think?

**Sithstole** · 02-13-2004, 11:31 AM

bump

**DBarcelo** · 02-13-2004, 01:30 PM

Everything you named is herbal (which are normally very mild in effect). Nothing more that chemicals found in plants. If you're running fina, you need something stronger than an herbal testosterone booster . I don't know that much about fina, because it's a veterinary med, but I do know that people use the pelits to make an injectible and they are very anabolic . I would imagine it will shut you down very hard, and you would need a prescription strength med to get you up and running again. You should probably go the anabolic forum to get better info about this, but I really don't think herbal is the way to go with this.

**Polska** · 02-15-2004, 07:28 PM

Fina is very androgenic (NOT anabolic ) but dbarcelo is right, you'll need more than a herbal test booster in order to recover the right way. Get some Clomiphene and/or Tamoxifen (nolvadex )

**Sithstole** · 02-15-2004, 10:15 PM

What about using it during cycle to keep my dick alive?

**Polska** · 02-16-2004, 06:32 AM

Originally Posted by Sithstole

What about using it during cycle to keep my dick alive?

If you want to keep your 'dick alive' then you must throw in some TEST in there. IMO a cycle isnt a cycle unless it has a testosterone base anyway....

don't bother with this herbal sh*t at all if you're going with fina...

**longhornDr** · 02-16-2004, 11:03 AM

That "herbal ****" he is talking about is actually a much more effective stimulator of testosterone production than any prescription drug we have in the U.S.

Endocrinologists are beginning to use it to treat hypogonadism. Just because something is "herbal" doesn't mean it can't be as effective as a prescription drug.

**RP7** · 02-16-2004, 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by longhornDr

That "herbal ****" he is talking about is actually a much more effective stimulator of testosterone production than any prescription drug we have in the U.S.

Endocrinologists are beginning to use it to treat hypogonadism. Just because something is "herbal" doesn't mean it can't be as effective as a prescription drug.

Bump for that..... if you got any references to this bro I'd be interested in reading them. Problem is on this board herbals are far too pansyish for anyone here and they always get ripped on.

**DBarcelo** · 02-16-2004, 03:54 PM

Originally Posted by longhornDr

That "herbal ****" he is talking about is actually a much more effective stimulator of testosterone production than any prescription drug we have in the U.S.

Endocrinologists are beginning to use it to treat hypogonadism. Just because something is "herbal" doesn't mean it can't be as effective as a prescription drug.

I do agree that some herbals are very effective, but I don't know about the ones used to boost test. I probably wouldn't want to take the chance personally unless it's an herbal that a pharmacutical company is producing.

**daman1** · 02-16-2004, 04:03 PM

Originally Posted by longhornDr

That "herbal ****" he is talking about is actually a much more effective stimulator of testosterone production than any prescription drug we have in the U.S.

Endocrinologists are beginning to use it to treat hypogonadism. Just because something is "herbal" doesn't mean it can't be as effective as a prescription drug.

Agreed.

**Sithstole** · 02-16-2004, 09:07 PM

Well I am going to give it a shot anyway, theres alot of mixed reviews on herbal supplements so I won't know untill I try it myself.

What one though, I have heard good things about tribulus and avena sativa but I don't know what brand of tongkat ali to get.

Thanks

**Polska** · 02-16-2004, 10:19 PM

Originally Posted by longhornDr

That "herbal ****" he is talking about is actually a much more effective stimulator of testosterone production than any prescription drug we have in the U.S.

Endocrinologists are beginning to use it to treat hypogonadism. Just because something is "herbal" doesn't mean it can't be as effective as a prescription drug.

I may be misinformed. But my opinion is based on personal experience with tribulus, zma, and avena sativa... and I always recovered better and have been able to retain the majority of my gains when using clomid and/or nolvadex . The first few cycles I ran were disastrous... simply because I relied on herbals for my PCT.

Like I said, I may be misinformed about herbals.... but I am speaking from personal experience......

**Cyto** · 02-16-2004, 10:35 PM

Originally Posted by Sithstole

Well I am going to give it a shot anyway, theres alot of mixed reviews on herbal supplements so I won't know untill I try it myself.

What one though, I have heard good things about tribulus and avena sativa but I don't know what brand of tongkat ali to get.

Thanks

You might want to give Testrol a try.....gonna try it myself....Made by German American Technologies!

**Ntpadude** · 02-17-2004, 12:01 AM

Originally Posted by Sithstole

What should I buy?

I was thinking Avena Sativa and Tribulus since I can get them in powder form from BAC. But the tongkat ali I have no idea what brand to get or if its any good.

I was gonna run it with a cycle of fina and then after the cycle for PCT.

What do you bros think?

Tribulus and tongkat assist PCT and behave more like a LH stimulant, but you still need clomid/nolva to help continue arresting the estrogens which are either left over from your cycle or actually spikes a little in PCT. Tribulus/tongkat will help speed up a good recovery but you should continue the clomid/nolva for the full 3 weeks of PCT. On the other hand I read an article from an overseas steroid prescribing doctor that they found excellent results with tongkat ali as the only PCT drug. You should also continue tongkat therapy for at least twice as long as the clomid (6 to 7 weeks) if you truely want to be restored to or surpass testosterone levels you had before the steroid cycle.

**Ntpadude** · 02-17-2004, 12:10 AM

Originally Posted by DBarcelo

Everything you named is herbal (which are normally very mild in effect). Nothing more that chemicals found in plants. If you're running fina, you need something stronger than an herbal testosterone booster. I don't know that much about fina, because it's a veterinary med, but I do know that people use the pelits to make an injectible and they are very anabolic. I would imagine it will shut you down very hard, and you would need a prescription strength med to get you up and running again. You should probably go the anabolic forum to get better info about this, but I really don't think herbal is the way to go with this.

Actually I had a HRT doc recommend tongkat ali as being a better choice then testosterone injections because some secondary hypogonadics actually start producing larger amounts of testosterone while on tongkat then the the blood levels legally allowed for the doctor to give you in injections (tongkat raises you higher then the HRT can legally go), and in some cases long term therapy permanently reverses or cures the hypogonadism. He was reading out of some published medical research currently being done by Harvard. Apparently tongkat does a variety of things, it not only increases testosterone but also elevates thyroid, adrenalin, nor-testosterone, DHT, andros, DHEA, growth factors all in such a way that a balance of hormones is maintained and also a greater chance of your burning off excess body fat occurs while still maintaining better cholesterol levels and lower blood pressure then the injectable testosterone alternatives.

**Ntpadude** · 02-17-2004, 12:23 AM

Originally Posted by Polska

I may be misinformed. But my opinion is based on personal experience with tribulus, zma, and avena sativa... and I always recovered better and have been able to retain the majority of my gains when using clomid and/or nolvadex . The first few cycles I ran were disastrous... simply because I relied on herbals for my PCT.

Like I said, I may be misinformed about herbals.... but I am speaking from personal experience......

Actually Tongkat ali is better described as "herbal HCG ". The main reason it isnt necessarily HCG substitute is HCG is nothing more then injected luteinizing hormone which is dangerous to the HTPA itself by shutting it down rather hard when it comes to production of LH hormone. Tongkat on the other hand strongly stimulates the HPTA to begin producing LH directly. The HTPA produces the maximum LH but never goes over the point that can cause your leydig cells to desensatize to LH. It also triggers other hormones, and signals not fully understood by endocrinologists that tell the liver and kidneys to stop removing excess testosterone , lower production of sex hormone binding globolins which essentially deactivate testosterone. In women the tongkat has some weird results. Women produce more estrogen from the LH stimulation but they also release 4 or 5 eggs at a time each month increasing the chance for quads and sextuplet pregnancies like fertility drugs so this is undesirable. Also more eggs means more blood and misery at those certain time of the month periods.

Also MIT is now working on developing prescription drugs based on tongkat. It seems viruses of all types hate tongkat ali and there are other properties of tongkat that cause HIV to go into serious remission without the help of other drugs and also it seems then S.A.R.S. was running thru Hongkong last year, tongkat ali was well documented in hospitals as kocking out the sars and healing the sick as well as fighting other colds and flus.

**RP7** · 02-17-2004, 12:49 AM

Ntpadude, can you refer me to info on this Tongkat. I'm having trouble finding any good information sources. Is the plant related to the same one as tribulus?

**Ntpadude** · 02-17-2004, 01:09 AM

Originally Posted by RP7

Ntpadude, can you refer me to info on this Tongkat. I'm having trouble finding any good information sources. Is the plant related to the same one as tribulus?

No tribulus is the same as puncture vine. Should do yahoo/google searches for tongkat. Also the plant's scientific name is eurycoma longifolia. There are other nicknames like long jack. Tongkat Ali is a mylasian word for the plant which basically translates into "Ali's walking stick" which is meant to describe the hard dick you got while walking around or doing anything, just just have a hard on all the time.

The plant is a rainforest shrub/tree that takes 10 years to become about as tall as a orange tree, also the main tap root is where the drug from tongkat ali is taken from and it takes 5 years before the drug starts becoming concentrated in the tap root. Its an endangered species however MIT has discovered a way to propogate the tree and help it grow faster so that farms can ramp up production of the plant without it going extinct. Also they found in somewhat dryer climates then the rain forest that the tree gains its concentration of the drug at an earlier age then it would in the higher rain areas.

**RUDY-14** · 02-17-2004, 02:00 AM

What is a good brand of tangkat ali and what dosages do yo take, for how long. I am laso interested in this herbal supplement. Can you get it at a pharmact without a perscription and how much does it cost? Jsut curious,thanks for any help fellas

**Ntpadude** · 02-17-2004, 03:00 AM

Originally Posted by RUDY-14

What is a good brand of tangkat ali and what dosages do yo take, for how long. I am laso interested in this herbal supplement. Can you get it at a pharmact without a perscription and how much does it cost? Jsut curious,thanks for any help fellas

No prescription. Here is a good brand, this stuff will give you headrushes at first because of the jolt of testosterone you get about an hour after taking a couple capsules... www.red-kat.com, there are also some other brands hitting the US all over and GNC's are just now stocking a few tongkat ali brands. I also have word that some Super Walmarts will be carrying it too.

LM1332 · 02-17-2004, 03:15 AM

kewl gonna buy some tribulus and tongkat gonna try that stuff out and see how it works

**DBarcelo** · 02-17-2004, 08:19 AM

Originally Posted by Ntpadude

Actually I had a HRT doc recommend tongkat ali as being a better choice then testosterone injections because some secondary hypogonadics actually start producing larger amounts of testosterone while on tongkat then the the blood levels legally allowed for the doctor to give you in injections (tongkat raises you higher then the HRT can legally go), and in some cases long term therapy permanently reverses or cures the hypogonadism. He was reading out of some published medical research currently being done by Harvard. Apparently tongkat does a variety of things, it not only increases testosterone but also elevates thyroid, adrenalin, nor-testosterone, DHT, andros, DHEA, growth factors all in such a way that a balance of hormones is maintained and also a greater chance of your burning off excess body fat occurs while still maintaining better cholesterol levels and lower blood pressure then the injectable testosterone alternatives.

I'll look into it and see.

**DBarcelo** · 02-17-2004, 09:00 AM

I didn't even really read the whole thing. You're talking about a hormone replacement theropy doctor. They only give very low doses of testosterone and growth hormone . Someone on here was telling me that they go to HRT and they get high doses, but they aren't legally allowed to give high doses. They give very mild doses for HRT it's really more in the area of homeopathic doses. I will look into it though and see how effective it can be and if there's any new research on it.

**DBarcelo** · 02-17-2004, 09:39 AM

I read up on it a little bit and it seems that Harvard is still studdying it. They have determined that it does raise free testosterone levels , but they are now doing research to see how much it raises it. But it seems that taking 1gram per day will give a decent boost to testosterone production.

**Shihonage311** · 02-17-2004, 10:50 AM

Originally Posted by Ntpadude

No prescription. Here is a good brand, this stuff will give you headrushes at first because of the jolt of testosterone you get about an hour after taking a couple capsules... www.red-kat.com, there are also some other brands hitting the US all over and GNC's are just now stocking a few tongkat ali brands. I also have word that some Super Walmarts will be carrying it too.

What do you recommend as a good dose?

Redkat is 300mg/cap so how many a day?

Thanks

**RP7** · 02-17-2004, 12:22 PM

Is Tonkgat Ali the same as Suma?

**Ntpadude** · 02-17-2004, 01:23 PM

Originally Posted by DBarcelo

I read up on it a little bit and it seems that Harvard is still studdying it. They have determined that it does raise free testosterone levels, but they are now doing research to see how much it raises it. But it seems that taking 1gram per day will give a decent boost to testosterone production.

I actually had to go back on clomid because gyno/sensative nipples simptoms. It seem in me tongkat produces enough testosterone to cause estrogen conversion and pointy sensative nipples. I dont believe tribulus has ever boosted testosterone into levels high enough to do this.

**Ntpadude** · 02-17-2004, 01:26 PM

Originally Posted by Shihonage311

What do you recommend as a good dose?

Redkat is 300mg/cap so how many a day?

Thanks

I am taking 3 caps a day and it I think its 200 mg a cap.

**DBarcelo** · 02-17-2004, 02:52 PM

Originally Posted by Ntpadude

I actually had to go back on clomid because gyno/sensative nipples simptoms. It seem in me tongkat produces enough testosterone to cause estrogen conversion and pointy sensative nipples. I dont believe tribulus has ever boosted testosterone into levels high enough to do this.

If I used Tongkat, I would still use an anti-estrogen. The Tongkat will keep you producing your own testosterone , but that's not going to do anything to stop gyno. It is interesting to know that it was strong enough to actually cause a case of gyno. Where you taking anything else besides the Tongkat?

**RP7** · 02-17-2004, 03:09 PM

Originally Posted by DBarcelo

If I used Tongkat, I would still use an anti-estrogen. The Tongkat will keep you producing your own testosterone, but that's not going to do anything to stop gyno. It is interesting to know that it was strong enough to actually cause a case of gyno. Where you taking anything else besides the Tongkat?

I just saw another guy on bodybuilding.com forums complain of sore nipples. I don't know if its a witch hunt but I may be purchasing some of this soon...

**DBarcelo** · 02-17-2004, 03:36 PM

I was looking at the RedKat link that Ntpadude put up. They use the clinical name for Tongkat and it's only available at GNC. I think they charge an arm and a leg for it. I really don't remember. I may give it try also. But I'll do it when I go on the pro-hormone cycle I plan on doing in about another month or two.

**RP7** · 02-17-2004, 03:36 PM

You guys wanna see something funny?

Tongkat Ali coffee!!!!! http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...category=14309

**DBarcelo** · 02-17-2004, 03:48 PM

That seems really expensive.

I have heard that they sell it in tea, coffee, powder, tablets and even the root itself.

**Shihonage311** · 02-17-2004, 05:58 PM

Originally Posted by DBarcelo

I was looking at the RedKat link that Ntpadude put up. They use the clinical name for Tongkat and it's only available at GNC. I think they charge an arm and a leg for it. I really don't remember. I may give it try also. But I'll do it when I go on the pro-hormone cycle I plan on doing in about another month or two.

They sell it online aswell, Bodybuilding.com has it for 35 bucks, allsportsnutrition has it for 77 or so.(Yikes!)

**DBarcelo** · 02-17-2004, 06:13 PM

That's not bad.

**Shihonage311** · 02-17-2004, 09:35 PM

Originally Posted by DBarcelo

That's not bad.

The BB.com or ASN?

**RP7** · 02-18-2004, 01:10 AM

BB.com sells it for $35

**MMC78** · 02-18-2004, 04:00 AM

Beyond-a-century nutrition has been selling this stuff for awhile.
www.beyond-a-century.com

100:1 Tongkat ali extract 50grams for ~$13
https://www2.acadia.net/cgi-bin/BAC/web_store.cgi

First day on this stuff, noticably elevated mood, will post more if I notice any significant changes.

**DBarcelo** · 02-18-2004, 09:52 AM

Originally Posted by Shihonage311

The BB.com or ASN?

BB.com.

**Ntpadude** · 02-18-2004, 10:26 AM

Originally Posted by DBarcelo

I was looking at the RedKat link that Ntpadude put up. They use the clinical name for Tongkat and it's only available at GNC. I think they charge an arm and a leg for it. I really don't remember. I may give it try also. But I'll do it when I go on the pro-hormone cycle I plan on doing in about another month or two.

GNC = $100 a box
www.netrition.com = $30 a box