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Thread: Starting M1t

  1. #1
    sensaispike's Avatar
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    Starting M1t

    So i desided to go ahead and do it, all though if i could get test in under a week i would say screw the m1t... but any way how does this sound.....i am going to run M1t for 2 weeks first week 10mg ed and week 2 20mg ed, with 4 ad and milk thissel... and nolva pct, what do you think, sound good?

  2. #2
    nsa
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    My suggestion would be to take the milk thistle with pct as people have said that somehow milk thistle can hinder the gains from m1t, stay at 10 mg's cuz its just going to increase the sides by upping the dose and it won't give anymore gains at 20 mg's than 10 mg's and if you can take clomid with pct.

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    i would take clomid but i ordered it and then the place got busted.... where is some where i can get it pretty quick??? also any ideas on dosage for pct?

  4. #4
    nsa
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    300mg first day - 100mg next 10 days - 50mg final 10 days is the typical clomid dosing for pct. As for the question on where to get it, we can't tell you. Its against the board rules to ask for a source.

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    oh i forgot...sorry.

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    ok so i am not going to take clomid.... i have been reading about the depression and all that and dont think i can handel it....so i will just use nolva and milk thissel.....any idea on the dosage and how long to take nolva after a 2 week cycle of m1t and 4ad?
    also how long between cycles?

  7. #7
    nsa
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    40 mg of nolvadex first week and 20 mg of nolvadex second week, And 500 mg of milk thistle both weeks. 2 weeks on m1t and 2 weeks pct.

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    cool...so after the 2 weeks pct you can just jump in to another cycle?

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by sensaispike
    cool...so after the 2 weeks pct you can just jump in to another cycle?
    If you want to...

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    This is by far the worst thread I have ever read with by far the worst advice and most ridiculous thought process.

    FM

  11. #11
    nsa
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    Whats wrong with the advice given in this thread?

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    well than please do correct us, by all means....

  13. #13
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    Well, first of all, there are a million threads on M1T that can answer all these questions....Whoever told you to run Milk Thistle only during PCT was very wrong, Nolva is def NOT enough for PCT, clomid is very vital, your cycle is really short, even for M1T, but thats your call. And for the damage that M1T does to your liver and HPTA if you run it for 2 weeks and do your half-assed PCT for 2 weeks, then run another cycle youre only asking for trouble.

    FM

  14. #14
    nsa
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    If you read the whole thread i suggested clomid and nolvadex for pct.

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    I did read the whole thread....and...it looks to me like he said he couldnt get clomid and you gave him advice on Nolva only PCT.

    FM

  16. #16
    nsa
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    If he can't get clomid, nolvadex pct is better than nothing.

  17. #17
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    Actually youre wrong, the best thing to do would be to discourage him from using M1T at all. If YOU read the entire post it would be clear to you that he is in a hurry and not thinking this out. In his first post he said he wouldnt do M1T if he could get test in under a week! That should have put up a flag and you should be warning him about the danger of rushing into this without proper knowledge or patience and that it is a very bad idea. We are here to give good advice, not half-assed, "well he'll do it anyway" advice.

    FM

  18. #18
    nsa
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    I gave him advice, i told him to do pct with clomid and nolvadex . And he said he wouldn't take clomid, thats not my fault.

  19. #19
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    ok forget it.... there is just to much bs with m1t.....i will just hold on to it....

  20. #20
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    Hepatotoxity is overated just like pct. Evryone sure can give advice. well lets see some references.
    I'll start.

    Hepatoxicty: Fact or Fiction
    by Roy Harper


    We all know that the alpha alkylated steroids are hepatotoxic, right….. But, is there actually any truth to this? We’ve been told for years that if you take 17 alpha-alkylated steroids, you will eventually run into liver problems. Never combine 17 aa’s, never go beyond 50mg day, never go longer than 4 weeks, etc. All of this is crap! As I we walk you through some studies, today, you’ll see 17 alpha-alkylated steroids can be hepatotoxic but not to the degree you would think.

    To make a steroid hepatotoxic, you need only a small change to a steroid molecule; A strong bond that cannot readily be down broken by enzymes in the liver. This may be a bond at the 17th position, or even at the 1st position (as in methenolone or proviron ). Because the liver cannot easily break the steroid down before it is released in to the blood stream, this also results in the steroid to becoming more orally bio-available.

    We can see that the liver has to work harder to break down these steroids. Enzymes in the blood and tissue easily metabolize other steroids such as Testosterone . Commonly, this increase in liver activity has been viewed as a harmful process, but as you will see, this increase is, in and of itself, irrelevant. The liver is THE filter of the human body -- it can figure out what to do with just about anything. The only real problem comes in when one keeps their liver at full blast for long periods of time.

    Let’s look at some studies showing the hepatotoxicity of steroids. Here's one of my favorites, a study published in 1979[1]. Essentially, researches did a study of deaths caused by hepatic angiosarcoma (a malignant tumor of vascular tissue in the liver) between 1964 and 1974. Researchers found 131 reported cases of death from hepatic angiosarcoma. Out of the 131 cases, 3.1% (4 cases) were reported to be at all related to the use of androgenic -anabolic steroids. Keep in mind that these 4 people could have liver complications before any steroids were used, aka a genetic disposition. In fact there is no proof, in this study at least, that the anabolic-androgenic steroids even caused the hepatic angiosarcoma.

    This is the classic case of associating a cause with an effect, without any evidence, aside from both existing. Furthermore, based on the above numbers, there are only 0.4 cases of hepatic angiosarcoma reported each year, by those using AAS. Now consider the number of people on steroids at this time. Now factor in all the people that don’t know their ass from a hole in the ground when it comes to using AAS, properly. Clearly, this is very week evidence. Lastly there has not been a real increase in hepatic angiosarcoma since the early seventies. Meanwhile, there has been a huge, almost exponential, increase in steroid use during this period.

    Another study, that somewhat supports the previous hepatotoxicity case, showed the possibilities of hepatic adenomas(cysts in the liver) caused by androgenic-anabolic steroids [2]. In this study, a Japanese girl was found to have multiple liver lesions after the use of the drug oxymetholone (aka Anadrol ). Most everyone “knows” that Anadrol is linked with liver problems, but a closer inspection into this study shows more.

    Apparently, this girl, starting at the age of 14, was diagnosed with aplastic anemia. She was prescribed oxymetholone at 30mg per day. This continued for 6 years until the lesions first appeared. Assuming that the girl was most likely around 100 lbs., this was a pretty heavy dosage. If you extrapolated this data out to a 200 - 250lbs. male, that would be taking approximately 60 - 90mg of anadrol per day for 6 years. Ouch!

    The researchers also stated that there were only 17 other cases of hepatic adenomas, found in English literature between 1975 and 1998. They failed to mention the causes of these 17 cases, but there is no reason to believe they were all using 17-AA androgens and 17 is certainly miniscule compared to the number of people who have used them. The authors’ finish off the study by saying the following: "This report may be helpful in identifying the population who is at risk of developing hepatic sex hormone-related tumors." So remember, if you're a small 14-year-old girl taking 30mg of Anadrol per day for 6 years, you may be at risk!

    Let's move on to some more useful studies. Take for example a 1995 study that showed the toxic effects of anabolic-androgenic steroids in primary rat hepatic cell cultures[3]. In this study the researchers used the following drugs and dosages:

    Steroid
    1x10^-8M
    1x10^-6M
    1x10^-4M

    19-nortestosterone
    0.002744mg
    0.2744mg
    27.44mg

    Fluoxymesterone
    0.003365mg
    0.3365mg
    33.65mg

    Testosterone cypionate
    0.004126mg
    0.4126mg
    41.26mg

    Stanozolol
    0.003285mg
    0.3285mg
    32.85mg

    Danazol
    N/A
    N/A
    N/A

    Oxymetholone
    0.003325mg
    0.3325mg
    33.25mg

    Testosterone
    0.002884mg
    0.2884mg
    28.84mg

    Estradiol
    0.0027424mg
    0.2724mg
    27.24mg

    Methyltestosterone
    0.003024mg
    0.3024mg
    30.24mg


    As proof of the hepatoxicity they used Lactate dehydrogenase release, neutral red retention, and glutathione depletion to determine plasma membrane damage, cell viability, and possible oxidative injury, respectively.

    What they showed was that the 17 alpha-alkylated steroids, methyltestosterone, stanozolol and oxymetholone, significantly increased Lactate dehydrogenase release and decreased neutral red retention at the 1x10^-4M dosage for 24h. Both methyltestosterone and oxymetholone also showed depleted glutathione at the 1x10^-4M dosage after 2h, 6h and 8h treatments. In other words they increased liver activity. You may also note that the other, non-alkylated steroids showed no significant difference in any levels. All in all this not only shows that 17 alpha-alkylated steroids are directly “hepatotoxic”, but also non-alkylated steroids are note hepatotoxic at all. But is this a real measure of hepatotoxicity? There is yet to be any correlation between the increase of the above-mentioned measurement and “hepatotoxicity”. Obviously, high dosages of the 17 alpha-alkylated steroids are potentially dangerous, but upon closer inspection, the study reveals more.

    Take a look, the researchers took cell cultures from the liversse of 60-day-old Sprague-Dawley rats. Not only are rat livers much smaller than human livers, but these were merely cultures. Furthermore, it was the 1x10^-4M concentrations that caused the most changes, but these are approximately 1 to a 1/3 of a full, daily human dosage -- at least for the 17 alpha-alkylated steroids. Even at the 1x10^-6M concentration, there were no significant changes observed. It's apparent that the levels of 17 alpha-alkylated steroids used were potentially toxic, but for a human to take the same amount would be insane. I'm guessing this could translate to maybe 4 grams every 24 hours or 28 grams a week if not more.

    What is common so far is we can only prove that any steroid, that is believed to be hepatotoxic, only increases liver activity. I’ll say it again, where is the correlation to hepatotoxicity? We know that if the liver is running at 100% for long periods this may cause complications, but this is akin to any other chemical, which is metabolized by the liver. Ever noticed that liver cancer due to alcoholism takes decades of constant alcohol abuse? It’s apparent that the possibility for hepatotoxicity is there, but for the smart steroid user this is nearly an impossible task.

    Another study done in 1999, attempted to show the acute and chronic effects of stanozolol on the liver[4]. In acute treatments of stanozolol, dosages not mentioned, both cytochrome P456 and b5 (microsomal enzymes) levels dropped after 48 hours, and then at 72 hours, levels significant increased. On the other hand, with chronic treatments, time or dosage not mentioned, these microsomal enzymes showed a decrease in levels. Researchers showed that both acute and chronic treatments resulted in "slight to moderate inflammatory or degenerative lesions in centrilobular hepatocytes", but the authors did not note true hepatotoxicity.

    How about we look at the other side of the story, the good studies. For instance, in a 1999 study, which looked at the effects of an 8-week cycle of 17 alpha-alkylated steroids[5]. The researchers used fluoxymesterone, methylandrostanolone, or stanozolol on rats at 2mg/kg-body weight, five times a week for 8 weeks. That's 182mg per dosage, for a 200lb man, or 910mg per week. Half of the rats were sedentary and the other were trained on a treadmill.

    Levels of NADH-cytochrome c reductase, succinate cytochrome c reductase, and cytochrome oxidase (showing liver activity), increased in the steroid-administered rats, while citrate synthase showed no change. Comparatively, in vitro, the "cytochrome oxidase and citrate synthase activities were insensitive to the AAS, whereas NADH-cytochrome c reductase and succinate cytochrome c reductase activities were partly inhibited."

    Furthermore, in vivo, each rat had liver enzyme levels that were within normal range. From this, the researchers determined that the steroid-administered rats, trained or sedentary, did not show "...classical serum indicators of hepatic function". Extrapolating this, 910mg a week for 8 weeks could potentially have little to no effect on the liver in humans.

    As for human studies, in 1999 researchers tried to prove that the hepatotoxicity of steroids is overstated[6]. In this study, 15 of the participants were bodybuilders using self-administered steroid dosages and 10 were non-steroid bodybuilders. Serum data was compared to 49 patients with viral hepatitis, and 592 exercising and non-exercising medical students. [

    All of the bodybuilders showed increases in aspartate aminotransferase (AST), alanine aminotransferase (ALT) and creatine kinase (CK) while gamma-glutamyltranspeptidase (GGT) levels were in the normal range. In comparison, hepatitis patients showed increased ALT, AST, and GGT levels while the control exercising medical students showed increased CK levels. From this, the researchers suggested that it is the correlation between AST, ALT and GGT that shows true liver dysfunction. Keep in mind, we can only guess that the 15 steroid users were using 17 alpha-alkylated steroids, and we do not know what the dosages that were used., but common sense tells us the results are likely relevant.

    Last but not least, a simple study done in 1996, showed the long term benefits after taking a 3 month break from steroids[7]. 16 bodybuilders using steroids were compared to 12 bodybuilders that were not. After a three-month drug withdrawal, the researchers showed that levels of liver enzymes, types not mentioned, returned to the same as the non users. Again the dosages are left to the reader’s imagination and we can only guess that the 16 steroid users were using 17 alpha-alkylated steroids.

    So what can we conclude from all of this? First off, 17 alpha-alkylated steroids are hepatotoxic in high dosages taken for a long time. On the other hand, short cycles and small dosages appear to be perfectly safe. I suggest that maximum dosages should be 500mg to 900mg per day. They should be cycled for perhaps 8 weeks at a time, and if needed a 3-month break from them should be used. Using the above-mentioned techniques, your liver can be healthy for a long time. Simply put, the hysteria surrounding “hepatoxic” steroids, is based mainly on folk lore.


    References:

    [1] Lancet 1979 Nov 24;2(8152):1120-3, Hepatic angiosarcoma associated with androgenic-anabolic steroids. Falk H, Thomas LB, Popper H, Ishak KG.

    [2] J Gastroenterol 2000;35(7):557-62, Multiple hepatic adenomas caused by long-term administration of androgenic steroids for aplastic anemia in association with familial adenomatous polyposis. Nakao A, Sakagami K, Nakata Y, Komazawa K, Amimoto T, Nakashima K, Isozaki H, Takakura N, Tanaka N.

    [3] J Pharmacol Toxicol Methods 1995 Aug;33(4):187-95, Toxic effects of anabolic-androgenic steroids in primary rat hepatic cell cultures. Welder AA, Robertson JW, Melchert RB.

    [4] Arch Toxicol 1999 Nov;73(8-9):465-72, Evaluation of acute and chronic hepatotoxic effects exerted by anabolic-androgenic steroid stanozolol in adult male rats. Boada LD, Zumbado M, Torres S, Lopez A, Diaz-Chico BN, Cabrera JJ, Luzardo OP.

    [5] Med Sci Sports Exerc. 1999 Feb;31(2):243-50, Rat liver lysosomal and mitochondrial activities are modified by anabolic-androgenic steroids. Molano F, Saborido A, Delgado J, Moran M, Megias A.

    [6] Clin J Sport Med 1999 Jan;9(1):34-9, Anabolic steroid-induced hepatotoxicity: is it overstated? Dickerman RD, Pertusi RM, Zachariah NY, Dufour DR, McConathy WJ.

    [7] Int J Sports Med 1996 Aug;17(6):429-33, Body composition, cardiovascular risk factors and liver function in long-term androgenic-anabolic steroids using bodybuilders three months after drug withdrawal. Hartgens F, Kuipers H, Wijnen JA, Keizer HA.

  21. #21
    nsa
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    You think that pct is overrated?

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    iamthesuperbeast is offline New Member
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    With prohormones and 2 week cycles of M1t. If it makes you feel good then go ahead it won't hurt to do any. I know of no cases of gyno from 2 week bursts of m1t or any gains lost without pct. THe gyno that occurs from the 4 products and m1,4 is because of there estro properties, they aren't worth much anyway except the 4diol and m4diol, maybe

  23. #23
    nsa
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    Pct isn't just to stop gyno, it is to get the estrogen levels and test levels back to normal. And if your test levels are alot lower than normal you will lose muscle.
    Last edited by nsa; 04-01-2004 at 02:23 PM.

  24. #24
    iamthesuperbeast is offline New Member
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    Your body is the perfect machine. i fuuly understand clomifen or hcg after 8-10 weeks of a few hundred mgs of deca ,enathate, sust or the likes, but with short durations like 2 weeks at aroung 100mgs a week the bodies hypothalamus does a good job of getting the test to normal.
    if your not trying to stop gyno then why would you care if you estrogen levels are back to normal.

  25. #25
    iamthesuperbeast is offline New Member
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    i have seen more than 10 people first hand do cycles of m1t with no pct and lose no more than 2percent of there gains.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by nsa
    Pct isn't just to stop gyno, it is to get the estrogen levels and test levels back to normal. And if your test levels are alot lower than normal you will lose muscle.
    100% correct. But some people will do what they want no matter what anyone says. No sense in exhausting your breath over it.

  27. #27
    iamthesuperbeast is offline New Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by daman1
    100% correct. But some people will do what they want no matter what anyone says. No sense in exhausting your breath over it.
    Thats sounds like a good idea to me.

  28. #28
    IamMitch is offline New Member
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    Would this cycle seem all right?

    10mg M1t 4 weeks on/4weeks off. Starting about 2 weeks into the cycle I would take 300mg of 6-OXO, take 2 weeks off and another 6 weeks cycle
    Repeat

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by iamthesuperbeast
    Your body is the perfect machine. i fuuly understand clomifen or hcg after 8-10 weeks of a few hundred mgs of deca,enathate, sust or the likes, but with short durations like 2 weeks at aroung 100mgs a week the bodies hypothalamus does a good job of getting the test to normal. .
    Scary. Two week cycles shut you down. The people that beleive that also beleive in the morning dbol bridge.
    There is no middle ground. You do get shutdown.
    Last edited by baller45; 04-01-2004 at 11:35 PM.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by baller45
    Scary. Two week cycles shut you down the same as a month long one or four. That is a fact.
    There is no middle ground shutdown.
    Correct me if I'm wrong, and I'm sure some of the boys from the steroid forum could back this up..... but your body does recover differently from different cycle lengths. It is my understanding that a two week cycle is NOT NEARLY the same as a 4 month one.

  31. #31
    IamMitch is offline New Member
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    I think he ment four week cycle, I could be wrong

    Quote Originally Posted by IamMitch
    Would this cycle seem all right?

    10mg M1t 4 weeks on/4weeks off. Starting about 2 weeks into the cycle I would take 300mg of 6-OXO, take 2 weeks off and another 6 weeks cycle
    Repeat
    Any feedback would greatly be appreciated.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by RP7
    Correct me if I'm wrong, and I'm sure some of the boys from the steroid forum could back this up..... but your body does recover differently from different cycle lengths. It is my understanding that a two week cycle is NOT NEARLY the same as a 4 month one.
    Sorry.. I was just trying to pound the facts that two weeks will shut you down, no matter if they keep it under 100mg. I'll edit my post.

    Animal found two studies that showed that:
    "100mg of deca shut down people in 5 days and kept them down for up to 32 days from one shot!"

  33. #33
    iamthesuperbeast is offline New Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by RP7
    Correct me if I'm wrong, and I'm sure some of the boys from the steroid forum could back this up..... but your body does recover differently from different cycle lengths. It is my understanding that a two week cycle is NOT NEARLY the same as a 4 month one.
    Your wasting your time man, they don't won't to do anything but argue.

  34. #34
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    my .02 cents...

    Quote Originally Posted by RP7
    Correct me if I'm wrong, and I'm sure some of the boys from the steroid forum could back this up..... but your body does recover differently from different cycle lengths. It is my understanding that a two week cycle is NOT NEARLY the same as a 4 month one.
    Your precisely correct. Also, if you take two different AAS's the same time you can also have bad effects, such as running tren the same length as prop. Big no no, as tren will shut you down HARD.

  35. #35
    ORION is offline New Member
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    is M1T illegal?

  36. #36
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    hmmm

    Quote Originally Posted by ORION
    is M1T illegal?
    You could say so. For now anyways

  37. #37
    nsa
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    What? M1t is legal.

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