Is all cardio created equal?

[tmarsh86]

Now that I have invested in a personal heart monitor (watch), I am able to easily regulate and control my heart rate throughout my cardio routine, which, after discovering this board, takes place as soon as I wake up, on an empty stomach.

My question is this: As long as you are maintaining the same consistant heart rate (65-75% of max) throughout your entire cardio workout and working out for the same length of time, would all methods of cardio (e.g. walking, jogging, swimming) have the same fat-burning effects?

(I know that while you are swimming you are working your upper body much more than you do while running, so the methods would be different in that sense.)

[bluethunder]

That's are good question. I doubt you can get 65-75% RHR while walking so on that one is NO.(unless you walk to the next state lol) Other times It is still considered cardio so YES. However, stuff like swimming may not excrete excess water (sweating)since your skin is in cool water .Also there is less stress on ones joints maybe a plus. The bottom line is your using energy no matter what the activity is and if the glycogen stores are depleted(like in the am) than any activity at 65-75% should do. I might add 75% too long may start to grab muscle for its energy/amino acid pool. Thats no good eh?

[CutMeUp]

IMO....

swimming is hard as sh*t and you will have tough time keeping your heart rate down.

If you need to jog to get your heart where it needs to be then so be it. some peoples hearts are in better shape than others and it takes more to get it going. you can bike do eliptical or whatever else you want. HR is key. good luck

P.S. do you understand the philosophy of doing fasted cardio? not saying you dont, but you should understand why you are doing it also.

[Hypertrophy]

More muscle mass being used = greater caloric expenditure.

[Soldier of Misfortune]

Thats why swimming gets you sore all over place. I do a light jog 3or 4 mornings a week. I know bros on here say I will loose muscle mass, but all I will be doing when I go back to school in two weeks is running for Ranger Challange. Ill still be goin to the gym, and may loose a few lbs, but itll mostly be fat and I should be cut up by half way thru the semester. OMG, is that when Im starting M1T, oh no...

[tmarsh86]

Yes, cutmeup, i do understand the reasoning behind AM cardio and why it is superior to cardio at most any other time of the day. i have learned so much since i started reading this board!

Lately, my cardio has taken place on an eliptical machine at the gym, and it has been working rather well for me (not too difficult to keep my heart where it needs to be). The main reason why I was asking about this is because I wanting to add some variety to my routine.

Thanks for everyone's feedback so far! I have lost about 25 lbs since May, and this site has helped a lot. Just started ECA along with my low carb diet and my ketone levels are the highest I have every had, which I attribute to the improved cardio "techiniques" and the ECA.

[CutMeUp]

Yes, cutmeup, i do understand the reasoning behind AM cardio and why it is superior to cardio at most any other time of the day. i have learned so much since i started reading this board!

Lately, my cardio has taken place on an eliptical machine at the gym, and it has been working rather well for me (not too difficult to keep my heart where it needs to be). The main reason why I was asking about this is because I wanting to add some variety to my routine.

Thanks for everyone's feedback so far! I have lost about 25 lbs since May, and this site has helped a lot. Just started ECA along with my low carb diet and my ketone levels are the highest I have every had, which I attribute to the improved cardio "techiniques" and the ECA.

Awesome, now all you need to do is drink some winny and you will be set.

Sorry bros who have been here long enough to actually appreciate the joke, i kept seeing you guys use it and this sounded like a good time to throw it in even if i wasnt here to appreciate it fully...

[morfeuss]

hello
yea, ive read somewhere that doing cardio for 16 min and not more is more efficient and do not cause that thing of using energy from the muscles....is that thing plausible?

[CutMeUp]

you are refering to it being catabolic (i.e. burning muscle)

the key is to keep your heart rate down. then your body will be able to suffice by drawing off glucose and fat for energy. 16mins? go slap the person that told you that. if that is all you did then you have efficiently wasted 16 mins of your life. WALK ON AN INCLINE OR JOG LIGHTLY for 45 mins.

but you are correct that doing cardio too hard will cause the body to use muscle for energy...but not 16 mins of proper cardio.

[Hypertrophy]

hello
yea, ive read somewhere that doing cardio for 16 min and not more is more efficient and do not cause that thing of using energy from the muscles....is that thing plausible?

WOW

[MrDezel]

It works even better if you crack open that vial of winny while you are on the tredmill.

[Blown_SC]

hello
yea, ive read somewhere that doing cardio for 16 min and not more is more efficient and do not cause that thing of using energy from the muscles....is that thing plausible?

Cutmeup replied, however he failed to mention that fat-burning while doing cardio really doesn't even start until the 20 minute mark...

[pspcs83]

my advice would be to switch up your cardio every now and then. You can switch up the length of time, intensity (or incline depending on your choice), or the actual type of cardio.
I feel that just like lifting, if you do not change your routine, your body will go to homeostasis and not be as efficient with fat burning.

<---he's doing good form of cardio

[tmarsh86]

it seems that many people just blindly refer to the 20 minute mark in cardio, which is just the amount of time that everyone assumes it takes to burn all of the muscles stored glycogen, right?

So what if you ideally have very little glycogen stored in your muscles due to a low carbohydrate lifestyle and your body mostly relies on burning ketones as a primary energy source. Does this 20 minute mark still apply?

Am I completely off base?

(also assuming that your protein intake is at a level that help will minimize muscle loss)

[CutMeUp]

it seems that many people just blindly refer to the 20 minute mark in cardio, which is just the amount of time that everyone assumes it takes to burn all of the muscles stored glycogen, right?

So what if you ideally have very little glycogen stored in your muscles due to a low carbohydrate lifestyle and your body mostly relies on burning ketones as a primary energy source. Does this 20 minute mark still apply?

Am I completely off base?

(also assuming that your protein intake is at a level that help will minimize muscle loss)

everyone is different, but even if i you had no glycogen store upon waking up (which isnt going to be the case) 16mins still isnt enough cardio to be burning exclusively fat. either way you cut it, 16 isnt enough.

[decadbal]

i know theres a thread that goes over the effectiveness of each type of cardio, u can find it online super easy as well. elliptical, uphill walkin those are the best... for fat buring in a 45 or 60 min time frame

[Blown_SC]

everyone is different, but even if i you had no glycogen store upon waking up (which isnt going to be the case) 16mins still isnt enough cardio to be burning exclusively fat. either way you cut it, 16 isnt enough.

Like I said above... fat-burning doesn't really start until the 20 min mark has been reached anyways..

[CutMeUp]

Like I said above... fat-burning doesn't really start until the 20 min mark has been reached anyways..

yes, but that is bc your body is still burning the glycogen store that it has...im pretty sure anyway...so in theory if you had none then you would be burning fat much quicker, but regardless the time frame given is much too short

[tmarsh86]

yeah, i completely disagree with the 16 min session

[DBarcelo]

Different forms of cardio work differently and have a different effect. Jogging is probably the best all around cardio, especially if you are holding a light dumbell while jogging or you have a treadmill that has arm resistance.

16 mins is long enough to start the process of burning fat if you are on a low carb diet or when you first wake up, but you're not going to get the full benefit. If you jog for 45 mins and you don't eat or drink anything except for water for the following 4 hours, your boddy will continue to burn calories for at least the next 3 hours. If you jog for 16mins, you will burn fat for a couple minutes and that's all. You haven't made your body feel as though it needs to burn fat for energy. On the same not, if you jog for 45 mins and then you start to eat and drink, you've just messed up most of your fat burning time because you burn fat for much longer AFTER you've jogged than you do WHILE you jog.

Walking is also a good form of cardio. You wouldn't walk as your only form of cardio, but if you jog for 45 mins per day, 7 days a week and on top of that you walk for at least half an hour per day, you not only burn fat, but you start to raise your metabolism. By doing that, you can conceivably start to lose weight and never alter your diet.

Swimming is an excelent form of cardio, but it depends on what stroke you use and how many laps you do in what kind of water. Swimming in moving water burns more than swimming in still water. Swimming in warm water burns more than swimming in very cold water. Doing laps in an olympic size pool is going to burn more than swimming in the average back yard pool. You don't tend to sweat when you swim, and you don't tend to burn calories for much longer after you're done swimming. If you do the butterfly stroke for 3 laps, you are going to burn much more than if you do the back stroke for 3 laps. In order of difficulty, Butterfly, freestyle, breast stroke, back stroke (not based on any scientific data, I used to swim high school varsity and I've swam every stroke and it's just based on how difficult I found each stroke to be as far as heart rate).

[MMC78]

Personally, I've gotten fantastic results from a 5 day ski trip with intense freestyle skiing. Ate whatever I wanted, but skiied 5-6 hours a day and dropped noticible body fat in as little as 3 days.

Swole, any advice on how to duplicate this result using a treadmill/stairclimber/etc?

[Hypertrophy]

I need a physiologial explanation on how you burn more fat AFTER cardio than you do while actually performing cardio??? During moderately intense cardio, your RMR stays elevated for around 20-30 minutes, resulting in 10-12 extra kcal. It's call EPOC.

MMC78, use a nordic track which mimics skiing. The only way to get the same results would be to do it for the same duration and intensity, which is probably not feasible.

[DBarcelo]

While doing cardio, you go into oxygen debt. Your heart rate increases because of the oxygen debt. Your body depletes it's carbohydrate stores, then it starts to use water and muscle tissue. Your muscles aren't getting oxygen quick enough to support what it's burning. After your cardio, your body is still trying to catch up with it's oxygen needs and continues to burn whatever it can to help make up for it. As the body is burning things for fuel, like fat and muscle, it is in effect raising the metabolism. As the metabolism raises, your nutritional needs increase. If you stay at the same amount of food intake, you will start to loose weight. If you do the same thing every day for a month, you will start to raise your basil metabolism. At that point, you will be burning more calories by just sleeping than what you do now.

I may be saying this a little too simply and I can make it more scientific if you like, but the main thing is that the oxygen debt lasts for a while after your heart rate has sattled down and the catabolic effect can last for hours if you don't eat or drink after cardio because has nothing left to maintain it's normal functions such as resperation, brain function, heart function, let alone your walking around, talking, etc...

[DBarcelo]

Personally, I've gotten fantastic results from a 5 day ski trip with intense freestyle skiing. Ate whatever I wanted, but skiied 5-6 hours a day and dropped noticible body fat in as little as 3 days.

Swole, any advice on how to duplicate this result using a treadmill/stairclimber/etc?

I think they call it cross country skiing. That's a really good form of cardio also because you are using your whole body and small muscles that you wouldn't normally use. Because of the last fact, you tend to be really sore the next morning though.

[DBarcelo]

Two more things......

I know people that know a lot get frustrated with me when I say things too simply, and I don't put too much detail. Kind of insults their intelligence I think. But I do it for the people that aren't very scientific. I don't know how many PM's I've gotten from people saying they like my posts because they can understand what I'm saying. So like I said, I can make it more scientific if you like, but the basic reasoning is there.


The other thing, when I say catabolic effect, I don't mean the burning of muscle alone, but the body's burning of fat, water, oxygen, everything.

[Hypertrophy]

No, i got what you were trying to say. EPOC is what you described. Oxygen deficit at the onset of exercise and oxygen debt during recovery. I thought you were trying to say that you burn more fat during the recovery period than you did during your training period. LIke if you burned 500 kcal during the session, i thought you meant that you would burn more than 500 in EPOC, recovery or however you want to put it. I gotcha about the overall BMR. Afterall, BMR accounts for 67% of energy expenditure, whereas physical activity only accounts for 23% and the thermic effect of food 10%. So, the chronic effect of exercise on energy expenditure will be greater than the acute 40 minute sessions.
I like that someone knows what they are talking about~

[DBarcelo]

That's what I'm saying. Overall expenditure. And the longer you go without anything else for the body to burn, the higher the overall expenditure is going to be.

[bluethunder]

yup your still burning evan post cardio.. Up to a point , it basically comes to a halt after you eat. What will keep the BHR higher is more muscle mass

[crazyswoll]

So what your saying is, I need to not eat for approx. 3 hours after I do cardio in the morning. Would it hurt if I came and got back in bed? I ask because I do my cardio at 530 in the morning and then go to school.

[DBarcelo]

You're not going to burn quite as much if you hop back in the bed, but you will continue to burn even if you hop right back into the bed.

[Dally]

bump ... and is a PWO drink Protein and dextrose the best thing to have after the 3 hours mark has passed?

I have been doing cardio in the morning on a empty stomach also, but only wait about 25 minutes after cardio (about 45 minutes to an hours worth)

But, PWO drink is best to have right away after weight training right? as opposed to cardio in the morning?

[tmarsh86]

Just an update everyone, I just finished my cardio for the day (I know that it isn't AM, but that's all that i could fit in today) from 6-7pm on an elliptical machine at about 70% max heart rate. I had not eaten since noon and usually consume 20-30g of carbohydrates/day. But to the point, after 10 minutes the original lethargy (the burning of glycogen) wore off and I felt extremely energized throughout the rest of the hour. I felt like I could keep going for another. But my AR knowledge pursuaded me otherwise.

[DBarcelo]

I would go with just protein itself. You don't really need the dextrose to help shuttle the protein because your body is in a state that it's trying to get as much into itself as quickly as possible anyway. And the dextrose is going to bring your breaking down of fat to a screeching halt. If you just take the protein, your body may be able to still break down some fat and start to replenish the muscle tissue at the same time.

And weight training is an anerobic activity. You want to take in protein about half an hour after anerobic activity and then about two hours after that. You can also suppliment creatine right after an anerobic activity.

The only time you want to eat right after an aerobic activity is if you only want to increase indurance. For example, a marathon runner may eat right after a long run because they aren't trying to lose fat, they just want to increase their indurance so they can run further next time.

[DBarcelo]

Just an update everyone, I just finished my cardio for the day (I know that it isn't AM, but that's all that i could fit in today) from 6-7pm on an elliptical machine at about 70% max heart rate. I had not eaten since noon and usually consume 20-30g of carbohydrates/day. But to the point, after 10 minutes the original lethargy (the burning of glycogen) wore off and I felt extremely energized throughout the rest of the hour. I felt like I could keep going for another. But my AR knowledge pursuaded me otherwise.

You work out when you have the time and the energy to work out. Doing am cardio may be the best, but that's a law. If you don't have the energy in the am just because you're not a morning person, then do your cardio in the afternoon. It's better to do your cardio whole heartedly with some carbs in your system than to do it half assed in the am with no carbs in your system.

[tmarsh86]

DBarcelo, when and what do you suggest I eat next?

[DBarcelo]

I would wait for at least three hours before taking some protein. Then I would try to wait another hour before eating anything. At that point, you can eat and drink whatever you want being pretty certain that your body has broken down all that it's going to break down. I wouldn't pig out, but you can eat pretty much anything. The thing is that your body now doesn't know when it's going to go throu another dry spell (no food in it), so it's going to want to store as much as it can. You want to eat a well ballanced meal but not a whole lot of it. If you can stick to that rutine for like a month and then take a week or two off of cardio and then do it for another month, you will lose fat quicker than anything else. But before you go back to bulking you have to start eating small meals at regular intervals thruout the day so that your body won't feel compeled to store everything you put into it. For example, eat six small meals every day for a week before you start bulking. If you start bulking right after doing cardio in this fassion, you will end up with more fat on you than what you started off with.

[MMC78]

I think they call it cross country skiing. That's a really good form of cardio also because you are using your whole body and small muscles that you wouldn't normally use. Because of the last fact, you tend to be really sore the next morning though.

It wasn't cross country skiing. Totally different. Much more intense burts of energy sustained for around 5-7 minutes.

Beginner skiiers get sore like no-one else. I laugh and call them Girlie Men.

[znak]

I think they call it cross country skiing. That's a really good form of cardio also because you are using your whole body and small muscles that you wouldn't normally use. Because of the last fact, you tend to be really sore the next morning though.

Cross country skiing is an instrument of the devil!

If it is cold out and you dress wrong (i.e.- too warm), it is like exercising in a sauna.

I cannot believe that people do it for fun...

Stick with swimming!

[thetank]

I think it was swolecat who told me cardio should be kept at low intensity(as in, able to hold a conversation while doing it) for an extended session as upposed 2 higher intensity for shorter sessions. Using his diet and cario methods i lost like 15 lbs of what seemed like nothing but fat, and even gained a bit of strength
thanks,
tank

[Hypertrophy]

I think it was swolecat who told me cardio should be kept at low intensity(as in, able to hold a conversation while doing it) for an extended session as upposed 2 higher intensity for shorter sessions. Using his diet and cario methods i lost like 15 lbs of what seemed like nothing but fat, and even gained a bit of strength
thanks,
tank

Exactly. . .
Longer Duration, Lower Intensity