Only Machines?

**statuZ** · 11-11-2004, 07:27 PM

Hey bros i just got ap ersonal trainer his name is Kevin Gilligan i dont know if you have ever heard of him but i have heard really good things about him from alot of people, he says he has trianed alot of people. But anyways today all we did was machines and i guess the way he trians people is low weight, but slow movements and to failure, and like no more than 8 reps. Am i going to be missing something if i am doing only machines becuase right now im squatting/deadlfitng and all this other freeweight stuff. What do you guys all think? Thanks.

**Iowa** · 11-11-2004, 07:30 PM

Originally Posted by statuZ

Hey bros i just got ap ersonal trainer his name is Kevin Gilligan i dont know if you have ever heard of him but i have heard really good things about him from alot of people, he says he has trianed alot of people. But anyways today all we did was machines and i guess the way he trians people is low weight, but slow movements and to failure, and like no more than 8 reps. Am i going to be missing something if i am doing only machines becuase right now im squatting/deadlfitng and all this other freeweight stuff. What do you guys all think? Thanks.

Well, if you honestly want to know what I think.....I think using just machines are for old people and fat chicks. Thats just my opinion of course. Is he planning on always keeping you on machines only? If he is, then I would make sure they're of the HammerStrength type.

**decadbal** · 11-11-2004, 07:32 PM

who is he a PT cert thru? im a pt, and id never limit my ppl to just machines.. and slow reps are good for certain gaols, but id never have one workout where i didnt have a free wt movement

**statuZ** · 11-11-2004, 07:49 PM

"Kevin Gilligan, OTA

Co-founder and Senior Vice president First Exercise Inc. Executive American Board Of Exercise Sciences, A former Division I college football player with 15 years experience in personal fitness training. A Master First Trainer, Kevin works with all populations for fitness and rehabilitation, Credentials in Occupational Therapy and Advanced Fitness Training, An independent contractor with medical doctors, physical therapists and chiropractors here in the valley." thats him, he owns his own little office with machines and some dumbells.
"Now, the rest of the country is catching on to Gilligan's way of working out. Proponents of slow training claim that pumping iron like a tortoise instead of a hare - making a few "reps" last 14 to 20 seconds instead of pounding out the traditional three sets of 10 at lightning speed - allows a person to safely place extraordinary demands on muscles and elicit an extraordinary response.

"The concept of three sets of 10 started 100 years ago," said Vincent "Benny" Bocchicchio, who has trained elite athletes and average Joes. "But only the last three reps are hard, so what were first 27 for? Slow training gets you to that point sooner. That's why it's so effective."

Bocchicchio developed F.I.R.S.T. (Focused, Intense, Resistance, Slow, Training) after opening a gym in Staten Island, N.Y., in the early 1970s.

Now, 30 years later, the rest of the fitness industry is catching up with Bocchicchio, who moved to the Valley several years ago. Fitness trainers and doctors are embracing F.I.R.S.T. as an effective and efficient exercise program.

"Everybody's looking for gadgets that are going to get them in shape and save them time," said Gilligan, who now whips other people into shape using F.I.R.S.T.

"This workout is only 25 minutes, and you only do it two times a week because it requires 48 to 60 hours to recover. So for people crunched for time, this is perfect. But it's not easy. It may be only 25 minutes twice a week, but it's a tough and intense 25 minutes."
"
"With F.I.R.S.T., strength training exercises target every muscle group. The machines are set to provide only moderate resistance, but instead of doing a rep that provides resistance only going up, the rep is slowed down and drawn out, causing resistance going up and coming down.

The key, Bocchicchio said, is to focus on each exercise and to resist the natural tendency to let momentum bring the weight down easily.

"Normally, you jerk up the weight and then let gravity take it down," Bocchicchio said.

"You're only getting a second or two of work for every rep. So you do 10 reps, but only get 10 seconds of work. Using F.I.R.S.T., you get twice that amount of work with a single rep, and there's no wasted motion. That's why it's so efficient."

"

oh yah btw, he made me throw up today, on just one excercise per muscle. i have never sweat so hard in my ilfe and i have never thrown up in a gym before.

what do you all think?!

**beavertrap** · 11-11-2004, 08:08 PM

I think just machines are bad news. I tried going to machines for a while just to change things up a little. I did gradually increase my weight over time but here is what happened. I decided to change up again and go back to free weights and fucced up my ac joint real good. Because machines are an exact movement every time, your actually weakening the supporting muscles you usually use while running free weights. My injury is still haunting me....I am currently on prednisone. If you want to use machines, mix them with free weights!!!!!!!!!! Please take my advice or you will be crying like a pussy like I have been for the past 4 weeks.

**statuZ** · 11-11-2004, 08:16 PM

Originally Posted by beavertrap

I think just machines are bad news. I tried going to machines for a while just to change things up a little. I did gradually increase my weight over time but here is what happened. I decided to change up again and go back to free weights and fucced up my ac joint real good. Because machines are an exact movement every time, your actually weakening the supporting muscles you usually use while running free weights. My injury is still haunting me....I am currently on prednisone. If you want to use machines, mix them with free weights!!!!!!!!!! Please take my advice or you will be crying like a pussy like I have been for the past 4 weeks.

actaulyl he has cables and some dumbells in there.

**beavertrap** · 11-11-2004, 08:48 PM

not enough....my2pennies

**se11** · 11-11-2004, 09:40 PM

machines are great...for like one exercise per body part. free weights > everything else. machines are good to finish off exercises, and to shape a body part, but not for the main exercise. like using one of those pec deck machines to finish off chest workout, but not as the main course.

**IronReload04** · 11-11-2004, 10:22 PM

Originally Posted by se11

machines are great...for like one exercise per body part. free weights > everything else. machines are good to finish off exercises, and to shape a body part, but not for the main exercise. like using one of those pec deck machines to finish off chest workout, but not as the main course.

i dont believe that machines shape the muscle. imo, the only way to "shape" a muscle is to grow it, somthing that i dont feel machines and cables do very well.

Do you really think ronnie coleman and that nasser guy do "shaping" exercises

**statuZ** · 11-11-2004, 10:27 PM

Originally Posted by IronReload04

i dont believe that machines shape the muscle. imo, the only way to "shape" a muscle is to grow it, somthing that i dont feel machines and cables do very well.

Do you really think ronnie coleman and that nasser guy do "shaping" exercises

and how do you grow a muscle then since machines you say do not work?

**SwoleCat** · 11-11-2004, 11:10 PM

Machines limit stabilizer and assistor muscles.

Those alone contribute to size, and assist you in pushing MORE weight, which also leads to more size.

Machines lock you into a movement, thus only working the muscle one way w/no stabilizer muscles being needed.

Yeah, that sucks.

~SC~

**statuZ** · 11-11-2004, 11:13 PM

Originally Posted by SwoleCat

Machines limit stabilizer and assistor muscles.

Those alone contribute to size, and assist you in pushing MORE weight, which also leads to more size.

Machines lock you into a movement, thus only working the muscle one way w/no stabilizer muscles being needed.

Yeah, that sucks.

~SC~

okay im going to give this guy a FIRST rate talk. GET IT HAHAH

**IronReload04** · 11-11-2004, 11:44 PM

Originally Posted by statuZ

and how do you grow a muscle then since machines you say do not work?

uhhhhhh, barbells and dumbells

**bluethunder** · 11-12-2004, 07:51 AM

I do not agree with him. He says "normally your jerk the weight up and then let gravity take it down" Yea people do it that way if they are not properly trained. Machines do have a role to play but it depends on ones goal. He helps in injuries as a therapist so he is going to advocate machines anyways. Less than one hour per week is almost a waste. Super slow training is good only as a change up but never continuesly as how are you going to hit all the different types of muscle fibers? Also how can you go to failure in 8 reps at light weights?? Machines have a constant plane they work on so auxcillary muscles never come into play. Sounds like he is a good salesman making alot of money (which is nothing wrong with that) but I doubt he trained any pro's.. But if you are interested just do it for awhile and see what happens ,good luck your going to need it..

**Hypertrophy** · 11-12-2004, 10:27 AM

I am sure he will progress to more demanding movements, such as free weights, if not, unload him. I start clients with machines only then progress to free weights. It sounds like he advocates "super slow" training, which is old news. Basically, you are spending more time in the eccentric, which cause more muscle damage. This stimulus for more muscle damage, theoretically, elicits a greater inflammatory response, leading to greater muscle repair, leading to accelerated hypertrophy. There are a few problems with this training. It is very painful. Time-consuming. Longer Recovery Periods between sessions. Activation of fast twitch fibers, which have a greater capacity to hypertrophy, etc. I can say this, because you are not accustomed to it, it will provide a new stimulus, which will elicit a new response.

**se11** · 11-13-2004, 01:59 PM

Originally Posted by IronReload04

i dont believe that machines shape the muscle. imo, the only way to "shape" a muscle is to grow it, somthing that i dont feel machines and cables do very well.

Do you really think ronnie coleman and that nasser guy do "shaping" exercises

it doesn't necessarily SHAPE it. it gives the muscle a different angle and type of work. it gives it something different to do instead of the same thing.

**angelxterminator** · 11-14-2004, 07:43 PM

machines as the only workout is horrible. They can be properly utilized for your benefit, but using them to isolate, or pre-fatigue a muscle group, not as a mass exercise.

In other words, i love doing my leg extensions, but nothing straps on mass like squats. I think the ONLY machines i ever use in the whole gym are leg extensions/leg curls, leg press.

**carbs-rule** · 11-15-2004, 04:05 AM

I prefer dumbells to just about everything. I hate the movement restrictions on machines, some of them seem dangerous. Avoid the military press machines like the plague.

**Chemical King** · 11-15-2004, 05:16 AM

I think that machines are fine to a certain degree but like some of the bros said, it dpends on your goals. When I was a beginner I used machines non stop for about 4 month until I was comfortable with things and my knowledge grew but when I discovered this board my whole training routine changed.

Id have a word with your trainer and see what his long term plan is

**Panzerfaust** · 11-29-2004, 07:30 PM

Arrgghhh! Don't get me started on machine only training.

I used to do all my benching on a machine, and my free weight bench is downright pathetic (but improving) and i truly believe it was my training with the machines that hampered me in this area.

Chest is my weakest link.

**BigDogRonnieC** · 11-29-2004, 11:05 PM

machines suck a fat one, but it also depends on what your looking to do. If you are 70 years old then it is ok go ahead and use those machines but if your looking to work out like a man then free weights all the way. just look at what it did for arnold coleman. i love the Ronnie coleman videos it just goes to show you that a modern day trainer can work out in the most primitave gym using compund movements and be a freakn monster.

**AlluiciousJones** · 11-30-2004, 08:52 AM

I find a mix of machines and freeweights to be better. Freeweights help your muscles gain stability, use a full range of motion and learn to perfect their form whereas machines put your muscles into a restricted range of motion and can be limited to the amount of weight you can put on them for a certain exercise. I'd definatly work freeweights into my routines.

Go yankees.

**Juggernaut** · 11-30-2004, 08:59 AM

You said "today we did all machines"....I'm pretty sure, if he's a decent PT, he'll be changing up things for you. If you're new to the game he's probably getting you into something you can handle and get used to taxing the muscles. Give him a little of your time and see where he takes you. And the thing with doing slow controlled lifts is a good one. Give him a little more than a day to judge if his input is helping you.