Question about Pre-exhaustion

**llbeastcd** · 01-19-2002, 07:35 AM

Hey all. I need some input. I wasn't getting a great workout when doing squats and deads. What I tried recently was pre-exhausting the legs with leg extensions and curls, then finishing with squats and deads. Even though I can't lift as heavy, I have been getting a great pump and I feel satisfied on leg day.

My question is... Is it okay to do it like this? Will the legs still grow? I can't go as heavy, but the workout is much better.

**bex** · 01-19-2002, 08:22 AM

I would say yes but only do it for a month on a month off...(IT WILL KEEP THEM FROM GETTING STALE)

**defdaz** · 01-19-2002, 08:28 AM

Yep, it's a great way to make your legs grow, or any part of you in fact.

I always always preexhaust quads because doing this makes your quads the muscle that fails during squats etc.

The reason (probably!) why you weren't getting a great workout was that it was your lower back, glutes or whatever that was giving out first, whilst your quads still had a bit left in then. So why should your body then make your quads grow - it's obvious to it that currently your quads are up to the job.

Now you are preexhuasting them you'll find they grow great whilst you are also protecting your knees and hips etc. more because now you aren't lifting so much weight in the compound exercises....

Think about this for a moment bro:

Can your muscles (quads in this case) identify what exercise you are doing? Do you think they care how many plates you've got on that bar? Do you think that's air, that you are breathing? Er...

No, seriously, all your muscle knows is how hard it has to contract and what the current state of itself is (acidity levels, ATP / creatine / glycogen levels etc.).

It's the effect the training has on your target muscles not the weight that you lift that is important...

Daz

**llbeastcd** · 01-19-2002, 08:59 AM

Originally posted by defdaz
The reason (probably!) why you weren't getting a great workout was that it was your lower back... was giving out first

Yup, that was it.

Originally posted by defdaz
Can your muscles (quads in this case) identify what exercise you are doing? Do you think they care how many plates you've got on that bar? Do you think that's air, that you are breathing? Er...

No, seriously, all your muscle knows is how hard it has to contract and what the current state of itself is (acidity levels, ATP / creatine / glycogen levels etc.).

It's the effect the training has on your target muscles not the weight that you lift that is important...

Daz

Great advice Daz... thanks.
 

**RageControl** · 01-19-2002, 02:50 PM

I always start leg day's with leg extensions.

**defdaz** · 01-20-2002, 06:24 AM

A pleasure, LLB!

def

**bigkev** · 01-20-2002, 07:48 PM

i gotta disagree fellas. if you pre exhaust your quads before squats, then you arent really pushing your quads 100% on what should be your heaviest, most important excercise for legs, squats. if your max on the squat is 405lbs, and your heaviest working set is 365lbs for 6 reps, but you pre exhaust and your max is now 365 and your heaviest working set is 325 for 6, then you have cheated yourself in a major way. 365lbs for 6 reps will build more muscle than 325 for 6 reps anyday of the week.

a good pump doesnt always mean more growth. i can get a skin busting pump from doing a ton of push ups, but pushups will never give you a chest like arnolds.

big weight=big muscles.

**defdaz** · 01-22-2002, 03:41 AM

Cool - disagreement!

bigkev, I have total respect for you but are you telling me that your quads really give out first on squats if you do them first in your quad workout?

For 99% of trainers this just isn't the case bro as squats / deadlifts etc. all place a far greater demand on the glutes and lower back. And precisely because of this squating is ineffective for them because their quads aren't being taxed as greatly as they might be had they pre-exhausted them.

Sure they'll grow though, along with their lower backs and glutes but just not as well.

Hell, I'd pre-exhaust with leg ext. before the compound movements just on the grounds that I don't want my glutes getting any bigger than they have too, lol!!!

I just read your post again bro :

if you pre exhaust your quads before squats, then you arent really pushing your quads 100% on what should be your heaviest, most important excercise for legs, squats

No no no! Because they'll give out first you are pushing them far harder in the squats than you would otherwise. Forget the pump or whatever - just think, how hard is squating on the quads after you've pre-exhausted them.... GROAN! It's brutal, nothing less.

def

**bufchic** · 01-23-2002, 01:24 AM

I never do quads and hams the same day, and I have some of the best female legs in the business if I do say so myself.

Concentrate on one or the other. When you need such big movements like squats and deads for these body parts you arent giving each part the attention they deserve.
Pre exhaustion is great to change up your routine with.

**defdaz** · 01-23-2002, 02:20 AM

bufchic - pics??

I always do quads last in the leg workout and this works great for me as my quads respond well and I'm not 'too' worn out from calves and then hams.

It is a big mistake though to try and train any other bodypart after quads though as if you are training them right you should be completely fooked afterwards...

bufchic - you don't give any credance to the theory of keeping the blood localised then? (I'm playing a bit of a devil's advocate here... hee hee)

def

**bufchic** · 01-23-2002, 02:38 AM

Def I would post my pics but I would make all the guys in here feel pretty bad......ok really bad.

bufchic - you don't give any credance to the theory of keeping the blood localised then?

Nope. You just arent putting enough focus on the quads and hams by training them together. Building the muscle is 50-70% in the mind. The weights are just a tool to get you there. If you are thinking about 2 major groups in one workout you are not giving them the full workout they should get. Plus these are two spots where MANY fall short. They cant afford to not be giving them everything. You wouldnt train chest and back together would you? I hope not!

**bigkev** · 01-23-2002, 02:57 AM

ok, its a given that glutes are stronger than quads, hell they are the strongest muscle group period. so, if the glutes are the strongest, and they are, then the quads will give out before the glutes will. meaning, that even though the quads are spent out completely, the glutes are still going, giving you more reps. so, in a sense, your glutes are spotting your quads, allowing 10 reps where the quads gave out at 7-8. and whats the key word for growth? overload. and whats the best way to overload a muscle? forced reps. and what allows a forced rep to be performed? thats right, a spot. follow me? your glutes allow for maximum overload on the quads, by supplying a spot. if you pre exhaust, you simply limit the weight that can be used and in doing so, completely limit the potential for growth.

hams are not a major muscle group. they get trashed during a heavy squating session and dont require near the effort or volumn of quads, chest or back. i am all for localized blood flow. its why i train tri's and bi's together. i have 21 inch arms(lean, cut arms) and 31inch(lean and cut) upper legs. and i posted a pic.

**bufchic** · 01-23-2002, 03:10 AM

i have 21 inch arms(lean, cut arms) and 31inch(lean and cut) upper legs. and i posted a pic

Hmmmm. Im not sure how to take that???
I know what you are saying about hams not being major cause yeah they can get trashed in a few sets of squats. And it takes very little to burn em. But I think for superior legs you should train them seperate. The intensity is way greater. I do have a point, reread what I wrote. I trained them together for 2 years and didnt get them where they could be. I have gotten much better results off of seperate days. Anyhow I have to have something to do since I only do quads every 2 weeks.

**THE BIG RED MACHINE** · 01-23-2002, 03:32 AM

I personally find that if I want to really tear into my quads, I’ll ditch the squats every couple of w/o and do extra leg press. I don’t necessarily pre-exhaust with leg presses, but I find that if I pyramid up from warm-up to max (max being no more that 6 reps) then back down again. When I do this though, my last couple of sets I will put only 2-3 plates per side and rep out 40-50 reps. My quads feel raped after this. I tend to incorporate this practice often into my leg w/o, because like a lot of tall guys like me, my lower back tends to fatigue before my legs will. I’ve tried different stances, plates under my feet, whatever. I guess it’s just the mechanical disadvantage that taller guys have. When I do, do them though. They are always with perfect form and right down to the basement. As for the hamstring dilemma, I’m gonna have to side with Big Kev for the most part (Surprised! Don’t be. He probably does it this way because he heard that this is how Ronnie Coleman’s routine works).

If you really give it your all on you pressing movements, you hamstrings usually don’t require that much attention. There is the odd person that I’ve seen that is too tired to properly work their hamstrings after blasting their quads, so they’ll do them on a different day. Sure, the intensity is far greater if you save them for another day and train them alone. But there are only 7 days in a week to train and for the most part, I like to take a rest on at least 2 of those days. Sometimes some bodyparts have to be worked together in order to fit it all in. Besides that I find it safer training them together, because the legs have been thoroughly warmed up at this point and the chances of injury are greatly reduced.

**bigkev** · 01-23-2002, 03:38 AM

calm down BC!

i was only joking!

i see your point also. you would definately benefit your hams by training them on a day all there own. i just get good growth from training them the same day as quads. maybe not you, but most of the girls i know who train place alot more importance on hams than guys do. where we are initially interested in big arms, for the most part, girls want nice shapely legs. i follow you 100%. just differ on style of training a little.

**bigkev** · 01-23-2002, 03:43 AM

As for the hamstring dilemma, I’m gonna have to side with Big Kev for the most part (Surprised! Don’t be. He probably does it this way because he heard that this is how Ronnie Coleman’s routine works).

ronnie is the man ya know!

**THE BIG RED MACHINE** · 01-23-2002, 03:45 AM

Yawn!!!

I know. You keep drilling it into my head. I'm gonna start stalking the guy soon.

He's not Cutler though right!!!

**defdaz** · 01-23-2002, 08:20 AM

bigkev (wow, love your new avatar!) - I'm going to quit here as there's no way we're going to change each others minds, lol!!

BIG RED MACHINE (and maybe bigkev - but not bufchic

) - am I right that you train hams after quads? HOW bro!??! After quads I can barely walk let alone train another part!

bufchic - fair play on only training quads twice a week, is this so they don't get out of proportion? In my younger days I went a bit OTT on the quad training (which is why my opinions on quad workouts are so strong) and ended up well out of proportion. I was squating 500 for 10+ reps (yes, after leg extensions, lol!) but had weak hams and calves. I looked very stupid indeed (and no comments from anyone saying I still do, lol!)!!

def

**superbeast** · 01-23-2002, 12:01 PM

Okay, here is the skinny on leg training. No pun intended.

I haven't seen anybody with better quads than mine, at least that has posted a pic. Sorry not even yours BigKev, even though they may be a little bigger. Don't mean to sound arrogant but I haven't. Maybe you all don't agree but anyway.

I totally agree with Bufchic on splitting them into two different workouts. I do quads once a week and hams once a week. As for pre-exhaustion, it is a good change-up but not good to follow all the time. If you have another bodypart failing before quads when doing squats, then work on that bodypart. Deadlifts and Squats on the same day is not a good idea, unless you are a powerlifter.

You may think I'm a sissy but I never squat with free weights. I only use a smith machine. It allows me to target and concentrate on the muscle I want to work better. For quads I do a narrow stance and I never go below parallel. Forget that basement crap. It puts a lot more load on the quads to stop at 90 degrees. When you go deeper, you are putting the emphasis on the glutes and hams and the momentum coming back up actually cheats the quads. It is also necessay to vary the number of reps. I never do less than 5 and do as many as 25. I was lucky enough to have a Nebula leg press at my last gym and there is nothing like it. It also allows you to traget a specific area of the leg. I do my leg extensions to exhaustion and do drop sets many times until I can barely walk to the locker room. If you work your quads this hard, you can't successfully work hamstrings the same day.

Oh yeah, the whole localized blood issue doesn't matter very much because the quads and hams are such large muscle groups. It may come into play on smaller groups.

The key to killing your quads is learning how to target them correctly and making sure they burn out first!!!

**bufchic** · 01-23-2002, 01:25 PM

Every once in a while that little bit of estrogen comes up from my hips and gets me all emotional

No, Im totally fine, sometimes I just come off worked up.

BK, I split my legs so they will be fully developed, not to be shapely. Shapely will come. I have guys always wanting to know what I do for my legs and train with me. Like I said, it may also because I do quads so little. At least we can agree on Ronnie, and I do think you look REALLY great.

Def, I do quads so little because mine are so out of control. They are a little too big and they take away from the rest of me, and the rest of me isnt small. I would like to loose about an inch on them. The first couple of years I trained them every 7-8 no sooner.
I just know if I train hams before I do quads my quads are not going to get 100%. And if I do hams last Im so whipped from quads Im ready to puke and lay down, not do hams.
SB I almost always use Smith too, I prefer the feeling. But I do switch it up now and then. The Smith is great for negatives too.

**THE BIG RED MACHINE** · 01-23-2002, 01:27 PM

Originally posted by superbeast
For quads I do a narrow stance and I never go below parallel. Forget that basement crap. It puts a lot more load on the quads to stop at 90 degrees. When you go deeper, you are putting the emphasis on the glutes and hams and the momentum coming back up actually cheats the quads.

My exact reason for going to the basement on my squats is this. I also believe that it is difficult to obtain optimum energy at the end of a leg w/o for hams, that is why I practice this. I think that if you perform the exercise at full stop at the bottom. The momentum from your hams and gluts can be greatly reduced. As well, on some of my other exercises I will do the same. On leg press, for about half of my sets, I will place my feet further up the sled in order to target gluts and hams. Same with Hack Squats. This way, my hams have at least started to fatigue by the end of my pressing routine. Then I am able to finish them off at the end w/o feeling cheated. So far so good. My leg development is balanced and not small by any means.

BTW
Is one of the reasons for you doing your squats on the smith machine because of the mechanics involved with your height? I used to do the same thing because of the stress it posed on my lower back. Just currious.

**superbeast** · 01-23-2002, 01:47 PM

It is just easier to alter my stance and positioning to target what I want without worrying about balance. I used to do them free but I get better development when I am able to target them the way I want.

Anybody else ever use a Nebula Leg Press? I don't think there is anything else like it for quad development.

**bigkev** · 01-23-2002, 02:19 PM

i would probably benefit alot by changing up my leg routine to resemble yours superbeast. i started out as a powerlifter and old habits are hard to break. i have really good quads as it stands, but sitting back and thinking about it , after having this discusion, kinda sheds a new light on things. i can squat a little over 700lbs(ptbyjason has seen me do reps with well over 600), so if i where to drop the weight i use to 500-50, and rep out, there is no telling where my growth would go. i will 100% give this a try over the next month or 2 and i'll get back to you all with some results. thanks for the input everyone.

**defdaz** · 01-23-2002, 03:27 PM

This is turning into a fantastic thread isn't it? Where's Ilbeastcd during all of this though!?

bigkev - go for it bro! drop set like hell the leg extensions till your quads are fried and then 20 rep set of squats till you are ready to pass out. COME ON, BRING IT ON!!!!! I just got back from the gym and did just this so can recommend it!

superbeast - not heard of this nebula leg press before... any links to pics of it?? Any pics of your legs whilst we are at it?

bufchic - I'm trying to think of that bodybuilder who had just phenomenal legs and hardly trained his quads either as his upper body lagged in comparision. He had long hair. Argh, can't remember!

def

**defdaz** · 01-23-2002, 03:35 PM

V. poor quality pics (sorry!) of my legs (a bit old too - I tore my pec three months ago and am only just getting back into things):

1.

**defdaz** · 01-23-2002, 03:40 PM

try again hey!

**defdaz** · 01-23-2002, 03:41 PM

cool, and:

**bufchic** · 01-23-2002, 06:26 PM

Tom Platz? I think he kinda had the same problem I do. He had such incredible legs that everyone focused on them and forgot about the rest.
The way I see it there are woman like Vicky Gates who are super top heavy and lagging legs winning so why cant someone with the opposite win. Actually not too many of the woman have very good legs. Im kinda afraid they will hold me back. A lot of people agree if I bring my upper body up much more Ill be too blocky cause its already big and thats not at all what I want.
Anyhow.
Def the pics have pretty bad lighting. I can tell your calves are pretty nice and you might have some good thickness in the thighs. Not easy to tell.

**llbeastcd** · 01-23-2002, 08:15 PM

Originally posted by defdaz
This is turning into a fantastic thread isn't it? Where's Ilbeastcd during all of this though!?

Here, lurking and enjoying what everyone has to say and taking notes. Truth is guys, my legs suck, so I don't know if I'm the one to offer advice or criticism here.

I have given the ole nod in agreement on a couple of things though. Everyone reacts differently, but here's what I can identify with.

1. I can't do deads and squats on the same day. Now way, no how! So I split em. Doesn't mean that it's helping my legs to grow, but I get more leg satisfaction this way.

2. I'll do calves first and finish with either the deads or squats. If I do calves after the big 2, my legs are still shaking from the squats or deads and I put my knees in jeopardy.

3. I have incorporated some 20 rep squat sets into this phase of training, to some positive results. Again, some... results. I feel the heads under the fat. I think I just have to keep dropping BF. They are not big though.

4. Finally, although somewhat OT, I DO mix in back and chest on the same day during certain times of the year, this being one of those times. I like to constantly mix and remix splits for variation. Throughout the year, I will do the standardized Big push/little push, Big pull/little pull. At times I will do the Big Push/little pull, Big pull/little push. And right now I'm doing Chest/Back/Shoulders, Legs/Abs, Bi's/Tri's in a 3 on/1 off split. High intensity, low volume on the first 3 days (after the carb up), and lower intensity/high volume during the latter three days (during the carb depletion)

Great thread with lots of great feedback. Keep going!

**defdaz** · 01-24-2002, 04:42 AM

No not Platz but yeah he is a good example. I'm thinking of that amateur american guy who had the most fantastic legs (awesome calves) but a really skinny upper body in comparison. He was a good looking chap so got lots of photo work. Argh, can't remember his name! Perhaps bigkev knows who I mean?

What are you going for then bufchic - bb or fitness? Maybe you should lay off the quad training for a while then? It could be that because you aren't overtraining your quads that they are growing despite your best efforts lol!

Thanks for your nice comments...

LLB! Hey, is that you in your avatar? If so you've got some big arms there bro... maybe not 21" like bigkevs but they are getting there mate!

I believe that dealifts aren't really a leg exercise so shouldn't be incorporated in a leg session anyway.... don't think that's radical, is it?

def

**defdaz** · 01-24-2002, 05:55 AM

Sorry peeps, just going off topic for a moment...

LLB, just saw your pics in the pics section - way to go bro!! You have done great, now keep it up!

I did a very similar thing when I was 17 - lost about 70 pounds in 6 months. I had been overweight all through my childhood and by the time I was 17 enough was enough. I'd been training on and off since I was 12 so I was about about 238 when I started and ended up at about 168.

I did it so quickly that people only got chance to comment when I'd got down to about 170!! Friends that I hadn't seen since starting the diet didn't recognise me! LOL.

I for one know that what you did is totally possible and so all I can say is ignore those who think you are lying etc. (you can understand when these people say these things though - it's vey easy to Bull Sh*t people online) and BE PROUD!

def

**superbeast** · 01-24-2002, 09:57 AM

You can check out Nebula's website at www.nebula-fitness.com

It is just an ordinary leg press but platform seems to be angled differently. I've never used anything else like it. It allows you to do a lot of weight. I saw a picture of Kovacs doing presses with the machine loaded and a bar with 12 plates on it stuck through the frame of the sled (about 50 plates total). I've done 44 plates for 10 reps before. I cried afterwards.

There are 2 threads with pictures of my legs in the Member's Pics forum. One is titled Pics of the Superbeast and the other says Updated Pics.

Oh, yeah. I do calves on another day also. Independant of quads and hams. Although I do neglect them sometimes. Not a good thing.

**superbeast** · 01-24-2002, 10:10 AM

Let us know how the changes go with legs.

Here is one to try also.

Find a weight you can squat for 20 reps.
Do five sets of 20 with 2 min or less rest between sets.

"Have a garbage can nearby!"

**defdaz** · 01-24-2002, 10:17 AM

This one bro?

http://www.nebula-fitness.com/6000.htm

looks pretty cool!

I remember your shots now. LEAN!

At 6' 3" you are one big dude! Like you say bro, don't neglect those calves - if your legs get out of balance you are just going to look silly. I know ALL about that,

def

**superbeast** · 01-24-2002, 10:36 AM

Yep, That's the one.

Its killer.

**bufchic** · 01-24-2002, 12:45 PM

What are you going for then bufchic - bb or fitness? Maybe you should lay off the quad training for a while then? It could be that because you aren't overtraining your quads that they are growing despite your best efforts lol!

I am a heavyweight bb going for my pro card. I will eventually size down A LOT but I will never compete in fitness. Oh I have layed off. If I lay off they stay the same if I train them AT ALL they grow. Ive tried it all. Whaaaaa

**primodonna** · 01-24-2002, 02:11 PM

Originally posted by bufchic
If I lay off they stay the same if I train them AT ALL they grow. Ive tried it all. Whaaaaa

You know what i have to say about that...

Great thread everyone

**defdaz** · 01-24-2002, 02:44 PM

bufchic - Ah! I see what you were saying earlier then - about making everyone jealous, lol!!! I'm going to just go off and cry a bit, see you later...

Seriously though, best of luck getting that pro card.

I'm all intruiged now, what do you think it is then that causes your quads to stay so big / grow so easy? Genetics; great nutrition and resting practices; or weighing so much and walking thus giving them a good workout (half - kidding there,

)?!?

primodonna - it IS a good thread isn't it?! I'll still be going to my grave an advocate of pre-exhuastion though, hee hee!!

def

**primodonna** · 01-24-2002, 02:47 PM

Originally posted by defdaz
I'll still be going to my grave an advocate of pre-exhuastion though, hee hee!!

def

Just make sure you don't pre-exhaust your heart before it's time

**bufchic** · 01-24-2002, 03:16 PM

Def thanks I need some luck.
Its genetics I swear by it. Im a very thick dense muscled person natually. I think it also has to do with my training. Those first couple of years I was crazy.
I also like the higher reps lower weight for quads. I stay real high on reps. Waaay better feel. I do like pre exauhstion too, use it a lot.
It could be the weighing so much walking around thing. Cause my god they do get heavy... but I doubt it.