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Thread: Cardio question

  1. #1
    Duma's Avatar
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    Cardio question

    Can you safely go above fat burn levels on the treadmill without using muscle as an energy source? Ive heard differing opinions on this...im just so sick of walking, id honestly rather run...there must be a happy medium where you can do cardio at a high heart rate but just not like an hour a day of it...any opinions, comments, or suggestions would be great!

    Regards,
    Duma

  2. #2
    HiFi's Avatar
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    try HIIT... AN SPRINTS

  3. #3
    carbs-rule is offline Associate Member
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    I do HIIT once a week. I have noticed no lean mass loss, and my weight-training is better because I seem to be able to breathe in more. I wouldn't (couldn't) do it on an empty stomach though. If anything, my legs have gotten more muscular since I started it.

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    SwoleCat is offline AR Hall of Fame
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duma
    Can you safely go above fat burn levels on the treadmill without using muscle as an energy source?
    If there is not enough blood glucose (on empty) then no.

    Once above the fat burning threshold where fatty acids are used for fuel (preferred source for those doing cardio to actually burn fat) you will use your lean muscle tissue for fuel.

    ~SC~

  5. #5
    Duma's Avatar
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    do you really think walking at fatburn (4.2 for me) is more effective than say jogging 10-15 beats above your target hr (~6.0).....its just hard for me to feel like i accomplished anything after WALKING for 20 minutes.

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    mitch911 is offline Member
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    thats the thing dont walk for 20 mins walk for 60 mins i walk an sweat a ****load

  7. #7
    dutchman718 is offline Junior Member
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    i walk at 3.3mph at a 7.0 incline for 45 minutes....does the trick!!

  8. #8
    Hypertrophy's Avatar
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    Heard that, 20 minutes is only the beginning of lipolysis. Up that duration and you'll be good as gold~

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    SwoleCat is offline AR Hall of Fame
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duma
    its just hard for me to feel like i accomplished anything after WALKING for 20 minutes.
    Me either, that's because 20 minutes isn't sh*t.

    Try 45.


    ~SC~

  10. #10
    AnabolicBoy1981 is offline Anabolic Member
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    when you do HIIT the majority of the fat is burned after your done, as long as you don't eat for an hour after your finished.

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    SwoleCat is offline AR Hall of Fame
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnabolicBoy1981
    when you do HIIT the majority of the fat is burned after your done, as long as you don't eat for an hour after your finished.
    That seems like a very bad idea, considering HIIT is above the threshold to burn fat for fuel, and will burn glucose (if available) and lean muscle tissue if it's not available (if you do this on "E"), thus thrusting one into an EXTENDED state of catabolism further exacerbated by waiting to eat for an entire hour.

    Which is why many choose to eat before HIIT, and use HIIT as a conditioning exercise to increase one's VO2 max, not utilize the activity for lipolysis as the lower-medium intensity variety is far more effective at not only burning fat DURING the session, but for actual lipolysis AFTER the session is over. There is a big difference in burning KCALS or burning adipose tissue.

    Not something I'd ever advise, that's for sure!

    ~SC~

  12. #12
    Neo22 is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwoleCat
    That seems like a very bad idea, considering HIIT is above the threshold to burn fat for fuel, and will burn glucose (if available) and lean muscle tissue if it's not available (if you do this on "E"), thus thrusting one into an EXTENDED state of catabolism further exacerbated by waiting to eat for an entire hour.

    Which is why many choose to eat before HIIT, and use HIIT as a conditioning exercise to increase one's VO2 max, not utilize the activity for lipolysis as the lower-medium intensity variety is far more effective at not only burning fat DURING the session, but for actual lipolysis AFTER the session is over. There is a big difference in burning KCALS or burning adipose tissue.

    Not something I'd ever advise, that's for sure!

    ~SC~
    So you would say as far as fat burning goes. Walk 45min on a incline on an empty stomach in the morning? Or should you do it in the afternoon when you have something to burn so you don't burn muslce?

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    Cry0smate is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neo22
    So you would say as far as fat burning goes. Walk 45min on a incline on an empty stomach in the morning? Or should you do it in the afternoon when you have something to burn so you don't burn muslce?



    AM Cardio all the way! 65-75% MHR

    Follow this link, it's a good read:

    http://forums.anabolicreview.com/sho...ghlight=Cardio

  14. #14
    SwoleCat is offline AR Hall of Fame
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    N-deed, listen to city as he is entirely correct.

    Good call.

    What I really like about a.m. cardio is not only is it not catabolic provided one know how to eat correctly the other 23 hours of the day, but it really does change your energy level throughout the day. You'll find you don't get tired as much during the day when you do cardio a.m. You do have to get a full night of rest when you do a.m. cardio, that is key to the tone that is set the rest of the day. It feels good when the metabolism is hummin' along at an accelerated pace much of the day.

    Beneficial as a mother as well, w/precise eating protocols.

    ~SC~

    Quote Originally Posted by Atwacity
    AM Cardio all the way! 65-75% MHR

    Follow this link, it's a good read:

    http://forums.anabolicreview.com/sho...ghlight=Cardio
    Last edited by SwoleCat; 01-29-2005 at 08:15 PM.

  15. #15
    tomaccojuice is offline New Member
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    Swolecat, what would you say about not working out on a empty stomach if you already have a bodyfat that is literally as low as you can go?

    I have been doing cardio at night now rather than the morining so I can burn off what I consumed throughout the day, since I have no glycogen or fat to burn in the morning. What are your thoughts on this?

  16. #16
    seanw's Avatar
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    Also SC whats the deal with doing this wile on a Bulking Cycle. Can you still burn fat and not lose LBM.

  17. #17
    phwSSJ's Avatar
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    It is proven by studies that it is VERY hard to use your own muscle protiene as fuel. Of course your body will use its own protien first before using injested protiene but it is still very hard to do. Unless you are running a marathon it is very unlikely that you will eat up your muscles. So dont worry about it.

  18. #18
    Duma's Avatar
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    id love for that to be the case because id rather ran for a shorter period of time then walk forever and die of boredom (per my statment earlier).
    what do you think phw's assertion ~SC~?

  19. #19
    mitch911 is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by seanw
    Also SC whats the deal with doing this wile on a Bulking Cycle. Can you still burn fat and not lose LBM.
    all the food u eat...it keeps the bodyfat down while ur throwing on muscle...but dont do cardio 5 days a week like cutting...put it down to 2 days a week. this also keeps the cardiovascular system going which is good in the long run..you do not do this cardio while bulking to loose bodyfat as ur main goal like cutting so dont be looking for results in that area.bulking and cutting are completly different and is nearly impossible to do them at the same time.

  20. #20
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    After doing am cardio on an empty stomach (45- 60mins), how long should you wait before consuming a PWO meal???...... and should this meal consist of the same macronutrients as a weight training PWO meal??

  21. #21
    phwSSJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duma
    id love for that to be the case because id rather ran for a shorter period of time then walk forever and die of boredom (per my statment earlier).
    what do you think phw's assertion ~SC~?

    Well, what I was telling you is backed by scientific studies and research in universities all over the country.

    ~SC~ (who I am sure has very extensive knowledge on bodybuilding, not to discredit or disrespect him at all ) probably did not do any scientific research on this.

    There are a lot of tried-N-true mehods for bodybuilding that are scientifically false.

    So it is up to you to decide who you want to believe.

    Many experienced bodybuilders, who probably have knowledge about exercise physiology and experience with people and what works for them.....

    or University proffessors who run research tests, taking muscle, blood, and all kinds of other samples, and all kinds of other scientific data with state of the art equipment, and extensive knowledge of human anatomy, biomechanics, exercise physiology, etc, etc.

    My prof has been very bussy and so have I. I have been trying to catch him but I always miss his office hours.
    If I cant find him tomorrow I will email him to give me the details and explanation for this subject as well as for his reason why doing cardio after fasting is not as good as it is cracked up to be.

    On an end note, why would you ever want to stop doing cardio.
    Dude your health is the most important thing you could ever have.
    And keeping your heart strong and healthy is a big part of that.
    So in case I am wrong, and doing cardio will make you loose a little skeletal muscle. Then fk it! do it cuz strenghtening your cardiac muscle is way way way way way more important that that bb sh1t.
    Does it make sense to you to have a huge-ass, body with a tiny weak heart?


    MOST people take their health for granted. Then when they loose it they realize that it is the single most important thing in the world.
    I have been there done that.

    Be careful, be smart,

    and good luck!
    Last edited by phwSSJ; 01-30-2005 at 01:54 PM.

  22. #22
    Cry0smate is offline Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dmize9
    After doing am cardio on an empty stomach (45- 60mins), how long should you wait before consuming a PWO meal???...... and should this meal consist of the same macronutrients as a weight training PWO meal??
    Definately should NOT be consuming a PWO meal post cardio, b/c it's not a workout, it's cardio. Most people while cutting prefer a pro/fat meal post cardio and some do prefer a pro/complex carb 45-60mins post cardio. But there is definately not a need to spike your insulin after aerobic activity.

  23. #23
    phwSSJ's Avatar
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    Good news!

    I just saw my prof today,
    I talked to him and he said that he will give me some articles that I can post here .... In a week or two..

    I told him about the dudes that flamed him and he laughed.
    He said that once you all read the articles you will flame yourselves for believeing such crap before.

    I am excited.
    Dont mess around with my prof he aint no chump like yall think most profs are.
    This dude is a genuine Billy Bad-Ass!

  24. #24
    Panzerfaust's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phwSSJ
    Good news!

    I just saw my prof today,
    I talked to him and he said that he will give me some articles that I can post here .... In a week or two..

    I told him about the dudes that flamed him and he laughed.
    He said that once you all read the articles you will flame yourselves for believeing such crap before.

    I am excited.
    Dont mess around with my prof he aint no chump like yall think most profs are.
    This dude is a genuine Billy Bad-Ass!
    I am interested in reading this, but how can we take you serious when you have a Frank Shamrock avatar?

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    carbs-rule is offline Associate Member
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    I don't think the professor (can you give us his name?) would argue that fasted cardio burns more fat. It is in the literature (i.e.
    "Lipolytic suppression following carbohydrate ingestion limits fat oxidation during exercise."
    Horowitz JF, Mora-Rodriguez R, Byerley LO, Coyle EF.
    Am J Physiol. 1997 Oct;273(4 Pt 1):E768-75). However, you would have to ask him very specific questions about cardio. I doubt he would reccomend running sprints on on empty stomach, but walking is probably no big deal. I will say that there are some discrepancies between the forums and what the data show. For example, the cardio on an empty stomach in the am makes a significant difference, but the coefficents are small. I don't remember exactly, but either this article or one of the others in the references indicated that it would take 42 cardio days for the difference between the fasted and non-fasted groups to equal one pound. It still usually just comes down to having a calorie deficit. However, I don't think the scientific studies will ever change anyone's minds on the boards until some magazine does a feature on it that is copied in a bunch of the other mags. Look at glutamine supplementation. There is absolutely nill evidence that oral glutamine supplementation does anything in active/training adults, but it is still being pushed pretty heavily. The stretching before lifting technique was proven to be ineffective, but it took a long time for people to accept it. Half of the people I see in the gym are still stretching right before hitting heavy weights.

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    carbs-rule is offline Associate Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by carbs-rule
    I don't think the professor (can you give us his name?) would argue that fasted cardio burns more fat. I
    I stated this wrong. I don't think the professor would argue against the idea of fasted cardio burining more fat.

  27. #27
    singern's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dutchman718
    i walk at 3.3mph at a 7.0 incline for 45 minutes....does the trick!!
    Same.
    I do 3.3 or 3.5 at a 5 or 6 incline for 45 to 60 minutes depending how I feel. Works great for me.

  28. #28
    SwoleCat is offline AR Hall of Fame
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    Here's what I say.

    If your cardio works so well for you, anyone who is arguing any type of cardio, post your pictures and be done w/it. Your own body will be your selling point, for there is no better form of actual proof, and you will have made your point. I could care less about studies or University literature, those can be rammed up the ass for all I care. Really, those do nothing to impress me, as I can find 100's of "studies" for about 4 different types of cardio, all claiming they are the "best".

    I know what I do, and I also know how I look. I know what I employ and instruct for my clients, and everyone knows how my clients turn out. I also know the protocols that I construct on this very board that are adopted by many (the bicep routine, the killer leg workout, etc.), lead to a ton of success by all of those who try them. So, I am confident in that what I endorse/employ works, and so are most others.

    Pretty clear what I'll be doing no matter what anyone thinks. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

    In addition, one need not JUST focus on the type/duration/time of cardio, but more importantly what one does the other 23+ hours of the day in regards to nutritional practices. Cardio of any type is not catabolic provided you know WTF you are doing nutritionally. Myself and my 100's of success stories are proof of this.

    To me, that's proof. All the proof I need anyhow.

    ~SC~
    Last edited by SwoleCat; 02-03-2005 at 10:37 PM.

  29. #29
    magicstick2003's Avatar
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    im confused now... is the general consensus to walk for your cardio or to do mild intensity jogging? to me it just feels weird for a younger guy to be walking on the treadmills, but hey if thats what works well im def willing to give it a go... i guess i kidna see how it's better because walking for 45-60 mins is better then jogging 30 or so.. Im really trying to learn bout cardio since i've decided to finally add it back in to the workout.. i feel it's something that is important and i've gone lone anough without it.

  30. #30
    bluethunder is offline Anabolic Member
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    Studies require funding, and bad results means less/no funding. Department heads and the like wish to always put a nice claim to get continued funds.............

  31. #31
    carbs-rule is offline Associate Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by bluethunder
    Studies require funding, and bad results means less/no funding. Department heads and the like wish to always put a nice claim to get continued funds.............
    The results of the study don't really effect the publication of the study or not, unless the journal is biased towards something. Even then, most people submit articles to a lot of potential journals for publication. If the study is attempting to test a hypothesis that is relevant and it has sound methods, then it will probably get published somewhere. Getting statistically significant effects is no better/worse than not getting statistically significant results.

  32. #32
    Hypertrophy's Avatar
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    . . .And having a statistical difference doesn't always mean there is a practical difference! There are lies, ****ed lies and statistics!

  33. #33
    carbs-rule is offline Associate Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwoleCat
    Here's what I say.

    If your cardio works so well for you, anyone who is arguing any type of cardio, post your pictures and be done w/it. Your own body will be your selling point, for there is no better form of actual proof, and you will have made your point. I could care less about studies or University literature, those can be rammed up the ass for all I care. Really, those do nothing to impress me, as I can find 100's of "studies" for about 4 different types of cardio, all claiming they are the "best".
    A picture offers no proof at all of anything besides that you might be in good/bad shape. How would you evaluate someone who was fat and lifted for 5years but is now is trying to shed 40lbs of fat but also retain muscle mass? You cannot figure out the fat/muscle loss ratio from a picture, and even if you could, who says it will work for someone else? At least the scientific lit has control groups. If I said the reason I have never been injured due to a workout is because I stretch for 10 minutes, would you believe it and stretch 10 minutes before lifting? Or would you believe the study saying that there were no significant differences between stretchers and nonstretchers? Most of what people say on this board is driven by a scientific theory they like or think is correct, but they refuse to allow it to be rejected when the theory is tested and it doesn't pan out. I don't think you will be able to find any studies saying one type of cardio is the "best."

  34. #34
    phwSSJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by muriloninja
    I am interested in reading this, but how can we take you serious when you have a Frank Shamrock avatar?

    Frank could tottaly take Wandy.



  35. #35
    SwoleCat is offline AR Hall of Fame
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    Quote Originally Posted by carbs-rule
    I don't think you will be able to find any studies saying one type of cardio is the "best."
    Ummm, duh, which is precisely why I said one can find studies that back every type of cardio. That means nothing in real world application.

    So, choose what works for you, quite simple. Once you have an entire protocol that works (as I do), then stick to it.

    Less talk, more work.

    ~SC~

  36. #36
    bluethunder is offline Anabolic Member
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    This debate will continue about cardio as to the best time to do. Not everyone will respond the same. However, I have a theory. The human body can adapt to many stresses by releasing certain hormones. For example during times of BOTH fasting and exercise(which we know is true already) OR aerobic cardio the body responds by pulsating more burst of HGH. This may help explain why morning cardio on mostly a empty stomach will start to shed some adipose tissue. You have fasted overnight and with the combination of cardio you get HGH because the human body will attempt to maintain some strength and survival mode. This is perhaps why am cardio may work and is part of the mystery. Many may arque that aerobic exercise or evan fasting will not produce any HGH but I do.
    Last edited by bluethunder; 02-07-2005 at 08:13 AM.

  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by SwoleCat
    Less talk, more work.

    ~SC~

  38. #38
    SwoleCat is offline AR Hall of Fame
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    Thanks Rex.

    Good point there BT!!

    BTW, I am not posting to be a smart-ass, but when it comes down to it, just try all kinds of cardio and see what works w/YOU best. That is what should be done w/all. I begin in one area, and explore other areas after I find one that I know works.

    ~SC~

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