Hitting muscles twice a week

[Njectable]

Everytime i see someone ask if they should hit certain groups twice a week, theirs always a quick reply saying "more is not always better", or thats "overtraining". I seen and talked to quite a few people who hit muscle groups twice a week, and most are jacked. Wouldn't it be fair to say that if your body allows it, and ur not the type of person where u hit chest and then 5 days later its still sore, that hitting muscle groups twice a week would be more beneficial, better gains, in less time, rather then hitting things just once every week.

I noticed a new member on here he posted pics of his transformation and how he worked out. First let me say his transformation is pretty impressive, and hears how we said his routine was plotted out

Training :
Week 1 :
- Monday : Chest / Biceps
- Tuesday : Legs
- Wednesday : Shoulders / Triceps
- Thursday : Back / Biceps
- Friday : Legs
- Saturday : Chest / Triceps
- Rest

Week 2 :
- Monday : Chest / Triceps
- Tuesday : Legs
- Wednesday : Shoulders / Biceps
- Thurday : Back
- Friday : Legs
- Saturday : Biceps / Triceps
- Rest


now that seems pretty solid to me? although i know alot of people would likely flame that routine on here. if anyone is interested in seeing the transformation i'm talking about it can be found here :

Before -- After : My Pics

I also found on another forum, one member had this to say to a person who was just starting out and had lvery little muscle..

"I am 'assuming' that being at 150, you are rather thin and have not much muscular development. You did not state your age, height or years of training which is highly relavent to your question. If I assumed correctly, then consider this advice:

At your current stage of development, you should work each bodypart twice a week. The reason is that you can NOT work out intense enuff to only be hitting each bodypart once a week. The reason being is when you have kicked ass in the gym for a long time(years) and put on alot of beef and strength, your muscles can actually contract more intensely and you can also go deeper into the pain zone as your mind and body have progressed to that point.

At your stage of development, you physically cannot train hard enuff to reap the benefits of hitting a bodypart once a week. To give you an example, lets say you and I are doing our last set of dumbell curls...the balls-to-the-wall set. You knock out 7 strict reps with 40's with your 15 inch arms, and then cheat out 3 more...agonizing in pain. OK, now my turn, I knock out 7 strict reps with 80's with my 19 inch arms, then cheat out 3 more...also agonizing.

You would THINK, that the intensity that you and I generated would be proportionate and equal during those sets. Not true. Since I have been working out much longer, and much more muscularly developed AND mentally adapted to the pain-zone from years of building up the intensity, I exerted more intensity than you. I can get away with hitting biceps every 5 days and grow like crazy. However, you would be much better off at hitting each bodypart twice a week."

now to me that sounds like what he's saying makes sense but maybe thats just me. Now i'm not just starting when it comes to lifting, nor have i been lifting for years, and no i'm not 150lbs. been lifting consistently for a year and a half now, weigh about 185lbs when i started i was about 160lbs. Now i notice my gains, and my lifts are starting to slow up, and i'm not making gains anymore, i've switched up routines, going from 5 days a week, into a 4 day split.. and now that my lifts aren't going up i think its time to switch it up some more, possibly something such as thr routine i posted above.

Just wondering why everyone preaches that twice a week is gonna be overtraining while theirs people out their that are having great gains from doing this type of lifting.

[HOLLYWOOD]

biceps before back??? nope sorry!

[Njectable]

well i didn't say i was going to use that exact routine, i would switch certain things up. although u say biceps before back? he hits biceps on monday back on thursday, he's pretty much hitting back 72 hours after hitting biceps. I'm not sure what ur bicep routine looks like. but i for one don't have my biceps hurting 3 days after to the point where i can't hit back to the maximum intensity? .. yes maybe chest and back 3 days i wouldn't agree with as for those groups my soreness is just starting to go away. but i have never experienced my biceps being sore come day 3, likely due to the number of sets that are done for biceps as opposed to a larger group such as chest, i only do 6 intense sets of biceps and triceps on days i'm hitting those as most people here say that is plenty, no need to hit biceps for 10-12sets and not be able to bend at your elbow until 6 days later. i guess each to their own oppinion tho, thats why i'm posting

[xtremepower]

IT sounds like who you quoted is in need of some serious education. I am a bodybuilding and power lifting coach and have competed myself for the last 10 years. I am 232lbs. 20" bi's 52" chest, etc. etc. I have 6 training certs and 2 BS's in training and athletics. I would say that training twice a week is dependant on a few factors;

1 - R&R Rest and recovery are vital roles to growth and development
2 - Dietary fueling
3 - Nutrition (not to be confused with diet)
4 - Current muscle fiber recruitment. Fast twitch versus slow twitch or a combo of both?
5 - Rate of recovery

All of these factors will be different for each and every one of you... the most rediculous statement in the reply you quoted was "I have more muscular development than he does." Hmmm... now do you?! We are born with the same number of muscle fibers as die with. The myosin filaments and scarring are what causes hypertrophy of the muscles. Consider his analogy, if you're "balls-to-the-walls".. who's balls are actually smaller in this scenario? I.E. Which guy is on steroids ? Let me answer that... the guy with his insanely HUGE 19" bi's... as if that's a huge accomplishment. Cocky attitudes are destructive to growth potential in my book. I have taken the pleasure of kicking SEVERAL cocky guys out of my facility. Just don't need that. If we can't play well with others... there's no second chance. This rings true for weight training. LISTEN TO YOUR BODY!! is the key here. If you ARE SORE (significantly) and you've not stretched for the day... try stretching and see if that soreness backs off. You're sore for a reason... you're recovering. Not to say you have to wait till there's no pain at all, but listen to your muscles tell you when you they're ready. As for the mind/body or mind/muscle connection. Yes... you can train to over-ride that as I have however it is not healthy for a 150 guy that has never worked out to train that frequently. Your ligaments are like tires on a car... they wear away until they're gone.. they do NOT recover well at all and they hurt if torn SEVERELY... so for all of you who have had tendonitis raise your hand? (not me)... ........precisely my point. Nutrients, Diet, WAY OF LIFE is what it comes down to. Your results ARE NOT dependant on your frequency of training SO TO SAY..... as much as they are dependant on your EFFICIENCY. Steroids... that is a whole different subject matter. So in conclusion, if you are still sore when you go to train your muscles the second time in the week, then DON'T... it took me 7 of my 10 years to get to training twice a week. And yes, my energy exertion level is higher because of one reason... not the size of my muscles but the number of mitochondrion in my muscles.. these little power cells burn through ATP (the energy of muscles) during the KREBS cycle like no body's business. So, I can flex harder because I have more power-generating cells powering my muscles... not MORE muscle... Questions? email me... thanks.

[Baba]

My believe is there is no such thing as overtraining if you get enough rest and nutrition. But I think that routine is crazy, I don't see enough rest tricep for example. If I'm gonna train a muscle twice week I would rest at least 72hrs b/4 hitting it again. Again nutrition and rest is most important to me.

[xtremepower]

yes... he speaks the truth!

[Njectable]

IT sounds like who you quoted is in need of some serious education. I am a bodybuilding and power lifting coach and have competed myself for the last 10 years. I am 232lbs. 20" bi's 52" chest, etc. etc. I have 6 training certs and 2 BS's in training and athletics. I would say that training twice a week is dependant on a few factors;

1 - R&R Rest and recovery are vital roles to growth and development
2 - Dietary fueling
3 - Nutrition (not to be confused with diet)
4 - Current muscle fiber recruitment. Fast twitch versus slow twitch or a combo of both?
5 - Rate of recovery

All of these factors will be different for each and every one of you... the most rediculous statement in the reply you quoted was "I have more muscular development than he does." Hmmm... now do you?! We are born with the same number of muscle fibers as die with. The myosin filaments and scarring are what causes hypertrophy of the muscles. Consider his analogy, if you're "balls-to-the-walls".. who's balls are actually smaller in this scenario? I.E. Which guy is on steroids ? Let me answer that... the guy with his insanely HUGE 19" bi's... as if that's a huge accomplishment. Cocky attitudes are destructive to growth potential in my book. I have taken the pleasure of kicking SEVERAL cocky guys out of my facility. Just don't need that. If we can't play well with others... there's no second chance. This rings true for weight training. LISTEN TO YOUR BODY!! is the key here. If you ARE SORE (significantly) and you've not stretched for the day... try stretching and see if that soreness backs off. You're sore for a reason... you're recovering. Not to say you have to wait till there's no pain at all, but listen to your muscles tell you when you they're ready. As for the mind/body or mind/muscle connection. Yes... you can train to over-ride that as I have however it is not healthy for a 150 guy that has never worked out to train that frequently. Your ligaments are like tires on a car... they wear away until they're gone.. they do NOT recover well at all and they hurt if torn SEVERELY... so for all of you who have had tendonitis raise your hand? (not me)... ........precisely my point. Nutrients, Diet, WAY OF LIFE is what it comes down to. Your results ARE NOT dependant on your frequency of training SO TO SAY..... as much as they are dependant on your EFFICIENCY. Steroids... that is a whole different subject matter. So in conclusion, if you are still sore when you go to train your muscles the second time in the week, then DON'T... it took me 7 of my 10 years to get to training twice a week. And yes, my energy exertion level is higher because of one reason... not the size of my muscles but the number of mitochondrion in my muscles.. these little power cells burn through ATP (the energy of muscles) during the KREBS cycle like no body's business. So, I can flex harder because I have more power-generating cells powering my muscles... not MORE muscle... Questions? email me... thanks.

some good info their and it definately sounds like u know what ur talking about, and it seems ur measurements and size, prove that. But if i understood the last part of what u said, then ur agreeing that twice a week if ur body allows it is more beneficial correct? because u mentioned that it took u 7-10years to get to the point where u were comfortable training twice a week, which i take it is how ur currently training? and if ur currently hitting muscles twice a week then wouldn't it be fair to say that u agree at least for YOUR body that twice a week training is more beneficial, otherwise if u didn't think this why would u be doing this type of training urself, correct?

[xtremepower]

Well, my chosen competitive sport (bodybuilding) requires it of me. It is true that training twice a week has it's appropriate moments but as I said it is up to interpretation of one's own physical state, metabolic rate, recovery rate, etc. Luckily, I have been able to chop it down to a science. My current training is a heavy routine mix and I train ONLY the body parts that have recovered to a satisfactory level. At times, I take 2-3 days off just to make sure everything synchronizes again. In my profession, one can point in the right direction but each and every person's body is completely different which is why doing what Carl is doing on hack squat may NOT work for you. You have bone density, length, muscular elongation, etc. So many kinesiological factors as well as current energy stores. Did you know that caffeine will WRECK your work out? Sugar will as well..... you'll feel on top of the world one second and then down in the hole the next. Eating too soon before a workout also hurts you as blood insulin levels and digestive processes remove circulating blood oxygen from your system. If you have a bad training day it's not because you're weak, it's because you're either not recovered or you did one of the above. In any event, thank you for your compliments, my role is to educate and help those break their barriers that are stuck in the opinionated world of weight training. Take Care... email me if you think of anything else. BUT YES.... I AGREE WITH YOUR LAST STATEMENT.

[Njectable]

My believe is there is no such thing as overtraining if you get enough rest and nutrition. But I think that routine is crazy, I don't see enough rest tricep for example. If I'm gonna train a muscle twice week I would rest at least 72hrs b/4 hitting it again. Again nutrition and rest is most important to me.

i agree that routine is a little overdone. Like i said if i decide to do a routine smilar to this it would be modified. Something similar to this

(changes are explained in brackets)
Week 1 :
- Monday : Chest / Triceps (biceps switched to triceps)
- Tuesday : Legs (maximum intensity)
- Wednesday : Shoulders / Traps (triceps switched to traps)
- Thursday : Back / Biceps
- Friday : Legs (light/moderate intensity)
- Saturday : Chest / Triceps
- Rest

Week 2 :
- Monday : Back / Biceps (switched from chest/triceps)
- Tuesday : Legs (maximum intensity)
- Wednesday : Shoulders / Traps (biceps switched to traps)
- Thurday : Chest / Triceps (switched from back)
- Friday : Legs (light/moderate intensity)
- Saturday : Back / Biceps (switched from biceps/triceps)
- Rest

now everything except legs is hit 3 times every 2 weeks, with a better rest inbetween workouts that include the same muscle groups. As for legs i'm not sure i would be hitting them twice everyweek cuz i would like to be able to walk at some point during the week, but if i were to decide to hit them twice a week one workout would be to maximum intensity while the next would be light to moderate

[Zapp]

If you hit legs hard....I mean heavy squats and leg press, I can't see how you can hit legs heavy again 3 days later.....If you can...more power to ya!

[Njectable]

If you hit legs hard....I mean heavy squats and leg press, I can't see how you can hit legs heavy again 3 days later.....If you can...more power to ya!

ya i know thats why i said it'd either be switched to also 3 times every 2 weeks, or 2 times every week but one day would be maximum intensity, and the 2nd day that week would be light to moderate

[xtremepower]

Like I said, listen to your body. Try doing this; for example bi's and tri's in mind; working the bicep (the primary mover) or agonist also works the antagonist (the tricep) or the opposing muscle.... try removing the antagonist when training body parts twice a week. This will make your efficiency more worth your effort. So, in theory if one works bi's then they could work shoulders, etc. or a fun one is chest and bi's. legs (you DO want to walk so keep that muscle group in check)... legs are a more sensitive to change muscle group than the rest of the body so one intense and then one round out routine... what I mean by round-out routine is to rework those muscles that are too tight or have begun to heal. Do not hit them with heavy heavy weight however and stick to mostly machines, hammer strength or ground zero equipment which still allows you mobility of your stabilizers. The rest is up to how you feel on the day, the day after, etc. of your training... commencing this style of routine will completely kick your butt for about 2-3 weeks but hang in there. It gets easier as your muscles develop more mitochondria to power your rage

[Njectable]

Like I said, listen to your body. Try doing this; for example bi's and tri's in mind; working the bicep (the primary mover) or agonist also works the antagonist (the tricep) or the opposing muscle.... try removing the antagonist when training body parts twice a week. This will make your efficiency more worth your effort. So, in theory if one works bi's then they could work shoulders, etc. or a fun one is chest and bi's. legs (you DO want to walk so keep that muscle group in check)... legs are a more sensitive to change muscle group than the rest of the body so one intense and then one round out routine... what I mean by round-out routine is to rework those muscles that are too tight or have begun to heal. Do not hit them with heavy heavy weight however and stick to mostly machines, hammer strength or ground zero equipment which still allows you mobility of your stabilizers. The rest is up to how you feel on the day, the day after, etc. of your training... commencing this style of routine will completely kick your butt for about 2-3 weeks but hang in there. It gets easier as your muscles develop more mitochondria to power your rage

thanks ur really providing alot of valuable info for this thread, i'm gonna consider using an agonist and antagonist approach like u said when developing my routine, i've never tried a split such as chest/biceps i've always used splits where hitting the larger muscle in the split is also hitting the smaller muscle such as chest/triceps, i'm always up for new things tho

[Squatman51]

thats not too bad my split is pretty similar...

M-Legs,traps, litle biceps work
T-rest
w-chest tris,litle shoulder work
T-Back, bi's
F-Hamstring, calves
Sa- chest tris shoulders
su-rest

[Squatman51]

im lifting more for strength and bulk though

[Njectable]

im lifting more for strength and bulk though

me too

[berniec]

xtremepower since it sounds like you really know your shit and have got a system thats working for you down to perfection over years of trial and error, would you mind posting your spit to save some of the rest of us the trial and error =)

I'm looking to get into working out parts 2x a week, but wanna get a split thats been working for some other ppl then wasting time spinning my wheels with trial and error you kno.

and i'm sure I'm not the only one on here would would like to see a workable split posted.

thanks bro!

[SwoleCat]

I hit everything once per week, as you grow OUT of the gym, not in it.

To each his very precious own however, simply find your niche and what works for you as an individual and go from there.

~SC~

[xtremepower]

Well, the last reply is somewhat unsettling but education is the key. That's why some of us hold records in our sports and some of us don't. Aside from sounding overly zealous, just appearing pretty in a magazine is not good enough.. you have to be able to perform!!! and perform well!!. My split is as follows:

Day 1:
Chest/Bi's
Day 2:
Legs
Day 3:
Triceps and Back
Day 4:
Deadlifting and traps

The fun thing about this routine is the following: Numero Uno; legs are a massive muscle group and need only be hit once in a week however if you're up for torture, I can provide a more in-depth approach to this rigorous, ACL, PCL, MCL busting routine . You have the Antagonist removed from each day of lifting. At Day 4; repeat it from day one. As I said... MOST OF YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE TO REPEAT THE FULL 3 days... what I mean by three days is MINUS LEGS. In essence, you're working out 7 days a week. Sound fun? Well it's more complex than that. As our previous sports' guru informed us, "You grow OUT of the gym, not in it." Well if you grow OUT of the gym then DON"T FREAKIN" GO! It is a dynamic duo of what you do in and out of the gym. I have covered this already for those of us that can read... for those that can't... p.42, Chpt. 5... j/k... it's written in my previous posts. . . scroll up and read.

So, one would have to be an idiot to seek this type of routine and not expect to be seeking mass and strength... THAT IS WHAT THIS IS FOR! Not to pick on the last guy too much but finding your niche is a difficult maneuver and most trainers are NOT CAPABLE of helping you. My purpose is to empower you to be able to find that on your own without cliche' cocky adive or opinionated responses... Sorry just a pet peve of mine.

So basically do this..... it will keep it fun and keep you in pain.... take some cards and write down the individual muscle groups..... put them in a cup and draw 2.... that's what you'll do that day . Keep the principals in mind... Remember.. you want to be able to utilize what you gain. Make is worthy of the hard work. In the real world.... do you think if you had to lift a car off your child that you would think..... OH well I'm going to use my chest and triiceps to do that.... NO WAIT... my legs and back..... OR IS IT TRAPS!>!>!>!> NO YOU"RE NOT GOING TO HAVE THE CHANCE TO THINK... Strong in mind and body 24/7...... and once a month.... take a few days off. Healthy living is in the nutrition, recovery, etc. YOU WILL HAVE TO WORK UP TO THIS. It took me years. It may take some of you longer. More questions? hit me up.

[SwoleCat]

I simply gave instructions on what is the BEST thing for each person to do.

That is to find what works for him/her.

Anymore mocking of my responses, and you will be taking a little vacation.

That is not needed here, nor is it tolerated.

BTW, if you've competed for the last 10 years, then throw up some pictures of yourself in the members pics forum so that people can see who they are reading advice from.

~SC~

Well, the last reply is somewhat unsettling but education is the key. That's why some of us hold records in our sports and some of us don't. Aside from sounding overly zealous, just appearing pretty in a magazine is not good enough.. you have to be able to perform!!! and perform well!!. My split is as follows:

Day 1:
Chest/Bi's
Day 2:
Legs
Day 3:
Triceps and Back
Day 4:
Deadlifting and traps

The fun thing about this routine is the following: Numero Uno; legs are a massive muscle group and need only be hit once in a week however if you're up for torture, I can provide a more in-depth approach to this rigorous, ACL, PCL, MCL busting routine . You have the Antagonist removed from each day of lifting. At Day 4; repeat it from day one. As I said... MOST OF YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE TO REPEAT THE FULL 3 days... what I mean by three days is MINUS LEGS. In essence, you're working out 7 days a week. Sound fun? Well it's more complex than that. As our previous sports' guru informed us, "You grow OUT of the gym, not in it." Well if you grow OUT of the gym then DON"T FREAKIN" GO! It is a dynamic duo of what you do in and out of the gym. I have covered this already for those of us that can read... for those that can't... p.42, Chpt. 5... j/k... it's written in my previous posts. . . scroll up and read.

So, one would have to be an idiot to seek this type of routine and not expect to be seeking mass and strength... THAT IS WHAT THIS IS FOR! Not to pick on the last guy too much but finding your niche is a difficult maneuver and most trainers are NOT CAPABLE of helping you. My purpose is to empower you to be able to find that on your own without cliche' cocky adive or opinionated responses... Sorry just a pet peve of mine.

So basically do this..... it will keep it fun and keep you in pain.... take some cards and write down the individual muscle groups..... put them in a cup and draw 2.... that's what you'll do that day . Keep the principals in mind... Remember.. you want to be able to utilize what you gain. Make is worthy of the hard work. In the real world.... do you think if you had to lift a car off your child that you would think..... OH well I'm going to use my chest and triiceps to do that.... NO WAIT... my legs and back..... OR IS IT TRAPS!>!>!>!> NO YOU"RE NOT GOING TO HAVE THE CHANCE TO THINK... Strong in mind and body 24/7...... and once a month.... take a few days off. Healthy living is in the nutrition, recovery, etc. YOU WILL HAVE TO WORK UP TO THIS. It took me years. It may take some of you longer. More questions? hit me up.

[dr.shred]

Well, the last reply is somewhat unsettling but education is the key. That's why some of us hold records in our sports and some of us don't. Aside from sounding overly zealous, just appearing pretty in a magazine is not good enough.. you have to be able to perform!!! and perform well!!. My split is as follows:

Day 1:
Chest/Bi's
Day 2:
Legs
Day 3:
Triceps and Back
Day 4:
Deadlifting and traps

The fun thing about this routine is the following: Numero Uno; legs are a massive muscle group and need only be hit once in a week however if you're up for torture, I can provide a more in-depth approach to this rigorous, ACL, PCL, MCL busting routine . You have the Antagonist removed from each day of lifting. At Day 4; repeat it from day one. As I said... MOST OF YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE TO REPEAT THE FULL 3 days... what I mean by three days is MINUS LEGS. In essence, you're working out 7 days a week. Sound fun? Well it's more complex than that. As our previous sports' guru informed us, "You grow OUT of the gym, not in it." Well if you grow OUT of the gym then DON"T FREAKIN" GO! It is a dynamic duo of what you do in and out of the gym. I have covered this already for those of us that can read... for those that can't... p.42, Chpt. 5... j/k... it's written in my previous posts. . . scroll up and read.

So, one would have to be an idiot to seek this type of routine and not expect to be seeking mass and strength... THAT IS WHAT THIS IS FOR! Not to pick on the last guy too much but finding your niche is a difficult maneuver and most trainers are NOT CAPABLE of helping you. My purpose is to empower you to be able to find that on your own without cliche' cocky adive or opinionated responses... Sorry just a pet peve of mine.

So basically do this..... it will keep it fun and keep you in pain.... take some cards and write down the individual muscle groups..... put them in a cup and draw 2.... that's what you'll do that day . Keep the principals in mind... Remember.. you want to be able to utilize what you gain. Make is worthy of the hard work. In the real world.... do you think if you had to lift a car off your child that you would think..... OH well I'm going to use my chest and triiceps to do that.... NO WAIT... my legs and back..... OR IS IT TRAPS!>!>!>!> NO YOU"RE NOT GOING TO HAVE THE CHANCE TO THINK... Strong in mind and body 24/7...... and once a month.... take a few days off. Healthy living is in the nutrition, recovery, etc. YOU WILL HAVE TO WORK UP TO THIS. It took me years. It may take some of you longer. More questions? hit me up.

bro, are you serious? take your wise ass remarks somewhere else tough guy.

[SwoleCat]

Yeah Shred, I sense w/his attitude and blatant disrespect of mods and people in general, he won't be around long. My favorite part of his post is below!

Talk about "kettle, meet Mr. Black!!!"

Now who is "cocky"??? Taboot, everything he wrote and commented on is opinionated. In addition, if it's a "pet peeve" of his, then he should stop exemplifying exactly what he dislikes so much, and if he doesn't ike my responses here, well, tough shit.

Unless he wises up and loses his "my way or the highway" attitude along w/his blatant disregard for common courtesy, he'll be leaving us shortly.

~SC~

My purpose is to empower you to be able to find that on your own without cliche' cocky adive or opinionated responses... Sorry just a pet peve of mine.

[HOLLYWOOD]

I simply gave instructions on what is the BEST thing for each person to do.

That is to find what works for him/her.

Anymore mocking of my responses, and you will be taking a little vacation.

That is not needed here, nor is it tolerated.

BTW, if you've competed for the last 10 years, then throw up some pictures of yourself in the members pics forum so that people can see who they are reading advice from.

~SC~

i wouldnt mind seeing those pics

[Gassy]

I agree, he said that he "has thown out several cocky guys out of my facility" and then went on to be the only cocky one in this thread.

[Njectable]

I simply gave instructions on what is the BEST thing for each person to do.

That is to find what works for him/her.

Anymore mocking of my responses, and you will be taking a little vacation.

That is not needed here, nor is it tolerated.

BTW, if you've competed for the last 10 years, then throw up some pictures of yourself in the members pics forum so that people can see who they are reading advice from.

~SC~

i wouldnt mind seeing those pics either, i'll admit that comment was completely unexpected especially being launched at SwoleCat

well this thread was going good untill this