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    indrid_cold17 is offline Banned
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    hyperextensions

    can they replace deadlift for some time ?? i was thinking of it cause my deadlift strength has plateaued for sometime now ,,or should i stick with my deadlift and strength gains should come slowly ?? any ideas?

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    I heard it isn't such a good idea to hyperextend the back with added resistance regularly. Deadlifts allow much more mass to be used, and even if you have hit a plateau, that will remain the best exercise for gaining strength and size. I don't believe many people actually bother with hyperextensions, its a bit like doing bench dips when you could do parallel dips...

    Even though the risk of serious injury with deadlifts is high because of the weight involved, I believe it is biomechanically 'safer' relative to hyperextensions because of the oblique line of pull on the spine with deadlifts. Hyperextensions IMO place too much load directly on the spine and its ligaments, especially towards the top of the back where leverage is poor.
    Last edited by Flexor; 12-24-2005 at 09:17 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by indrid_cold17
    can they replace deadlift for some time ?? i was thinking of it cause my deadlift strength has plateaued for sometime now ,,or should i stick with my deadlift and strength gains should come slowly ?? any ideas?
    I would go with rack pulls, to get used to using a heavier load. Go in the power rack and adjust the bars to just above knee level. Perform partial deads. This will really overload your lower back muscles, as a stabilizer, much better than hyperextensions. I have another exercise, after you plateau on that one. Good luck, bro!

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    well when I had access to a roman chair stand i used to do hypers as well as deadlifts. I got up to doing 4x10 with a 100lb dumbbell (in proper controlled form)...that was about 2 yrs ago. If u can do them, do them, great assistance lift AND they'll make ur erectors strong and pop out like u got a cpl of boa constrictors under ur skin
    Last edited by sputnik; 12-24-2005 at 07:41 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flexor
    I heard it isn't such a good idea to hyperextend the back with added resistance regularly. Deadlifts allow much more mass to be used, and even if you have hit a plateau, that will remain the best exercise for gaining strength and size. I don't believe many people actually bother with hyperextensions, its a bit like doing bench dips when you could do parallel dips...

    Even though the risk of serious injury with deadlifts is high because of the weight involved, I believe it is biomechanically 'safer' relative to hyperextensions because of the oblique line of pull on the spine with deadlifts. Hyperextensions IMO place too much load directly on the spine and its ligaments, especially towards the top of the back where leverage is poor.
    Couldnt agree with these more. Have you been doing the same deadlift routine for awhile? Reason I ask is that I would solely perform singles with the same exact routine for a year and did not see any progress. Try increasing weight/reps accordingly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Papi93
    I would go with rack pulls, to get used to using a heavier load. Go in the power rack and adjust the bars to just above knee level. Perform partial deads. This will really overload your lower back muscles, as a stabilizer, much better than hyperextensions. I have another exercise, after you plateau on that one. Good luck, bro!

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    Rack pulls and partial deads are fantastic, but they're not the same as doign hypers. Actually I also performed hypers whilst doing partials now that I think about it.

    Hypers with added weight are a killer, but if done with good form and with progressive added resistance...they are fantastic....thing is most ppl shudder at the thought of how tough it is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sputnik
    Rack pulls and partial deads are fantastic, but they're not the same as doign hypers. Actually I also performed hypers whilst doing partials now that I think about it.

    Hypers with added weight are a killer, but if done with good form and with progressive added resistance...they are fantastic....thing is most ppl shudder at the thought of how tough it is.
    Some all flexion of the spine on their hypers and some keep a neutral spinal alignment. What method did you use or did you implement both?

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    hmmmmm...good question....and to tell u the truth I'm unsure....I just really concentrated on using my lower back, using little momentum...99% of those doing hypers use massive amounts of momentum and look ike the're going to fly off the thing...also, when lowering my torso with the weight, I would come back up to bring my torso only slightly above parallel so as not to hyperextend my back.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sputnik
    hmmmmm...good question....and to tell u the truth I'm unsure....I just really concentrated on using my lower back, using little momentum...99% of those doing hypers use massive amounts of momentum and look ike the're going to fly off the thing...also, when lowering my torso with the weight, I would come back up to bring my torso only slightly above parallel so as not to hyperextend my back.
    If you did it with a flat back, then it would be a similar exercise to Romanian Deadlifts.
    If you did it with a rounded back, then it would be a similar exercise to Stiff-Legged Deadlifts.
    I learned the name difference from Aussie strength coach Ian King.

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    ur prob right...but having used partials, romanians and stiff leggeds...I would still perform hypers if I had the equip..i got somehting out of them that I didnt get from all the deads variations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sputnik
    ur prob right...but having used partials, romanians and stiff leggeds...I would still perform hypers if I had the equip..i got somehting out of them that I didnt get from all the deads variations.
    No doubt, man. I like them just as much as romanians, stiff-leggeds, good mornings but I don't think they could be a substitute for deads. Deads heavily involve the quadriceps, being a multi-joint exercise.

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    Oh, I totally agree with you, no way are they are subs for deads!

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    Quote Originally Posted by indrid_cold17
    can they replace deadlift for some time ?? i was thinking of it cause my deadlift strength has plateaued for sometime now ,,or should i stick with my deadlift and strength gains should come slowly ?? any ideas?
    Sputnik, that's what I was referring to when I made that statement.

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    hey my excuse is I'e got my daughter runnng circles around me right now LOL ....that and I was just purely talking about doing hypers if one can

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    Quote Originally Posted by sputnik
    hey my excuse is I'e got my daughter runnng circles around me right now LOL ....that and I was just purely talking about doing hypers if one can
    No problem. I don't have any kids myself. Thank god. I don't know how you do it. I just like to debate, that's all. Thanks for not getting moody (ahem, Flexor ).

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    She's two, and she's cute as anything, I have a boy on its way in March too hehe. Moody? What for?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sputnik
    She's two, and she's cute as anything, I have a boy on its way in March too hehe. Moody? What for?
    Some members have a hard time when you question their training theories. Personally, if someone can prove me wrong, I'm grateful. That means I learned something that will make me stronger in the long-run.

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    Yeah I suppose ur right. however I know I'm right, always

    Anyways, we both see eye to eye on deads as irreplaceable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sputnik
    Yeah I suppose ur right. however I know I'm right, always

    Anyways, we both see eye to eye on deads as irreplaceable.
    Rack deads and static contraction deads could replace deads for a lower back stabilizing exercise. Some use it on leg day to work the hip extensors (glutes and hams) and knee extensors (quads). This is a very hard form of deadlifts to replace. You have to get creative, like wide-grip deads, etc.

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    I also feel that sumo style deads stimulate the hip flexors pretty well, also.

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    Man I always found sumo's tough as hell! But yeah Papi, wide grip partials in particlar i used to do. Excellent lift.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chest6
    I also feel that sumo style deads stimulate the hip flexors pretty well, also.
    I used to love sumo deads, back when I was in college. I have long femurs so it really helps me get down into the starting position.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Papi93
    Thanks for not getting moody (ahem, Flexor ).
    haha, thanks for the hint. I don't get moody, its just hard to tell sometimes what tone someone is using on the net, especially with Papi since he is so frank

    Rack pulls may be a good exercise to overload the erectors, but the repeated partial range of motion wreaks havoc with my lumbar. I've done these before except not in a rack, and when you get up from that position, the lower back isn't very happy. Even though you can put the weight down to release tension, there is no chance to stretch out the erectors by fully extending the femur to anatomical position. The muscles and connective tissue has to constantly take the load and little has been shifted onto the discs. As a result when you stand up you feel the release of tension from all the tissues and there is a tightness there.

    I feel that it is probably safer performing hyperextensions whilst maintaining neutral spine alignment, as opposed to performing rack pulls. At least with hyperextensions you get a full ROM and a slight release of tension in the down position (depending if you perform them horizontally). Personally though, I feel deadlifts and barbell bent over rowing fatigues the erectors plenty. To do hyperextensions after this would be asking for trouble, considering the stabilising muscles would be less capable of maintaing neutral spinal alignment.
    Last edited by Flexor; 12-25-2005 at 05:19 AM.

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    Flexor is offline Banned
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    Look how dedicated (and pathetic) I am, posting on Christmas Morning

    I see I missed out on the debate by going to bed at 1:00 last night...you lucky people are at least five hours behind. Ah well I've added my opinion late
    Last edited by Flexor; 12-25-2005 at 04:54 AM.

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    Yeah Flexor I've noticed in my short time here that good ol' Paps can be quiet frank.... ...I hope not to stirr him up too much

    as to hypers...I must admitt i used to do them after my deads or squats

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    Quote Originally Posted by sputnik
    Yeah Flexor I've noticed in my short time here that good ol' Paps can be quiet frank.... ...I hope not to stirr him up too much

    as to hypers...I must admitt i used to do them after my deads or squats
    haha, you can avoid stirring him up by always putting IMO before you say ANYTHING

    You know exactly what you are doing with your hyperextensions, your form seems perfect. I'm sure you know your own limits and wouldn't do anything unless you knew you could do it safely

    MERRY CHRISTMAS Aussie dude! I wish I was down under right now, in the middle of summer at christmas. We used to get snow over here and that made it interesting, but now its just like mild winter. I'd prefer summer to this!!

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    and a merry christmas to you to amigo! Actually I now a cpl of ppl heading off to London in Jauary...poor bastards! But yeah, it's been stinking HOT in Sydney these last few days!

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    What do you guys think of reverse hypers? The kind that Louie Simmons promotes heavily?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Papi93
    What do you guys think of reverse hypers? The kind that Louie Simmons promotes heavily?
    The problem I think is most gyms don't have a machine specifically for them. You would have to get on with your hands where your feet would be, face down. The problem would be getting comfortable

    They are much safer as the lower spine is supported and stabilised. The regular hypers are far more likely to cause injury because the distal component which is the back is moving rather than the proximal, that being the legs. With reverse hypers, the legs are the distal component and this allows you to stabilise the proximal component, that being the back.

    I'm glad you brought them up Papi, I had forgotten about them. They are great for adding strength for a powerlifting routine...Louie benefitted greatly I believe.
    Last edited by Flexor; 12-25-2005 at 06:01 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flexor
    The problem I think is most gyms don't have a machine specifically for them. You would have to get on with your hands where your feet would be, face down. The problem would be getting comfortable

    They are much safer as the lower spine is supported and stabilised. The regular hypers are far more likely to cause injury because the distal component which is the back is moving rather than the proximal, that being the legs. With reverse hypers, the legs are the distal component and this allows you to stabilise the proximal component, that being the back.

    I'm glad you brought them up Papi, I had forgotten about them. They are great for adding strength for a powerlifting routine...Louie benefitted greatly I believe.
    I only seen one and I have trained at many gyms. It's virtually impossible to replicate this exercise without a machine. I tried loading with ankle weights, medicine balls, etc. but eventually you become too strong and need more resistance.
    Definitely a safer exercise to perform. A lot of beginning strength trainers could benefit from this exercise. Also, a great glute and hamstring developer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Papi93
    I only seen one and I have trained at many gyms. It's virtually impossible to replicate this exercise without a machine. I tried loading with ankle weights, medicine balls, etc. but eventually you become too strong and need more resistance.
    Definitely a safer exercise to perform. A lot of beginning strength trainers could benefit from this exercise. Also, a great glute and hamstring developer.
    I see we are totally agreed here. Its a shame that the idea is not cottoning on. Even though I'm in the UK, I have seen US ads for the purpose built bench retailing at 700 USD.

    I read somewhere that a piece of PVC pipe and a 'web belt' is useful for adding resistance. Do you know how those two items could be applied in reality? I guess it means the pipe goes is fastened across your legs with a web netting underneath carrying plates, but I'm probably wrong.
    Last edited by Flexor; 12-25-2005 at 06:16 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flexor
    I see we are totally agreed here. Its a shame that the idea is not cottoning on. Even though I'm in the UK, I have seen US ads for the purpose built bench retailing at 700 USD.

    I read somewhere that a piece of PVC pipe and a 'web belt' is useful for adding resistance. Do you know how those two items could be applied in reality? I guess it means the pipe goes is fastened across your legs with a web netting underneath carrying plates, but I'm probably wrong.
    I have not heard of the PVC pipe and web belt. It got me to thinking though. I've used a DARD for anterior tibialis raises. You could plates on the device. I'm sure something could be constructed for reverse hypers. This could be an excellent addition to home gyms. I would only use the dard when a seated calf raise machine was unavailable where I was training.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Papi93
    I have not heard of the PVC pipe and web belt. It got me to thinking though. I've used a DARD for anterior tibialis raises. You could plates on the device. I'm sure something could be constructed for reverse hypers. This could be an excellent addition to home gyms. I would only use the dard when a seated calf raise machine was unavailable where I was training.
    I myself workout at home thesedays. I have to improvise all the time, so like you I am constantly trying to figure out things like this! The ole dynamic axial thing is pretty good and simple but I don't personally use it. Like you said, useful if there is nothing else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flexor
    I myself workout at home thesedays. I have to improvise all the time, so like you I am constantly trying to figure out things like this! The ole dynamic axial thing is pretty good and simple but I don't personally use it. Like you said, useful if there is nothing else.
    I've always wondered if you could do leg throws from the reverse hyper position. I alot of athletes do leg raises where someone pushs their legs down and they try to decelerate, before they hit the floor, and then accelerate them, as quickly as possibly to their workout partner. It's like a plyometric exercise for the hip flexors. Why couldn't you do the same with the hip extensors?

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    Totally agree, reverse hypers are the way to go if u have access to the equipment...or unless u can improvise

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    Quote Originally Posted by sputnik
    Totally agree, reverse hypers are the way to go if u have access to the equipment...or unless u can improvise
    Hey sputnik. The triumvirate of kinesiologists is now complete MWAHAH

    That aside, Papi, I'm not sure I understand that hip plyometric exercise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flexor
    Hey sputnik. The triumvirate of kinesiologists is now complete MWAHAH

    That aside, Papi, I'm not sure I understand that hip plyometric exercise.
    Have you ever grabbed onto a workout partners ankles with your hands, while lying on your back, and had them push your legs to the ground? You try to stop them before they hit the ground and return them to your partner. The abdominals work very hard to stabilize while your hip flexors are working to the max.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Papi93
    Have you ever grabbed onto a workout partners ankles with your hands, while lying on your back, and had them push your legs to the ground? You try to stop them before they hit the ground and return them to your partner. The abdominals work very hard to stabilize while your hip flexors are working to the max.
    Yep, it's agreat exercise for the abs, friggin tough though, especially if the other person is as strong as!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Papi93
    Have you ever grabbed onto a workout partners ankles with your hands, while lying on your back, and had them push your legs to the ground? You try to stop them before they hit the ground and return them to your partner. The abdominals work very hard to stabilize while your hip flexors are working to the max.
    Just before you posted I figured it out. Yeah, I have done something similar to that, except it was an abdominal variant. When doing leg raises for the lower abs, I had my workout partner pull backwards on my legs as soon as I had fully flexed my pelvis so as to increase the eccentric loading on the lower abs. It wasn't specifically for the hip flexors, but a very similar exercise and it used to hit them very hard!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flexor
    Hey sputnik. The triumvirate of kinesiologists is now complete MWAHAH

    That aside, Papi, I'm not sure I understand that hip plyometric exercise.
    U one funny guy! LOL

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