I want to start the legs debate. Opinions please

[chinups]

Now I have always done my legs and quite frankly my legs are big and they are strong. I was squating close to 475 pounds for reps a yr ago and I was still sporting some what of a six pack, just to paint a picture so you don't think I am one of those pudgy guys in the corner blowing out legs for heavy weight with no tone. Sorry pudgy dudes

But my question is if I run say everyday or even 4-5 times a week is that like enough legs?????? I mean I would miss squats, quite frankly I really like squating mentally it just does something for you in the weight room but my question is if I have a great base for my legs and I don't want to add size to them would running/cardio everyday or 4-5 times a week enough?????


I know alot of ppl like my HS b-ball coach who does nothing but run everyday and hes like a little rock. I saw him this wkend and couldn't believe how a 70 yr old was in such good shape. Pretty big legs too.

Not sure if I will ever do this but honestly, I believe if you just did cardio you still would have some serious muscle in your leg and if your a everday guy not competing that should be enough for the beach no????

Thanks

[ROBOCOP]

I agree partly cos you see cyclists with huge calves, thighs and hams. As far as running for your leg workouts i would say definately not. Short explosive running/cycling can certainly build and shape the legs but if you are running to gain fitness then youll be running for half an hour a day on average and that wont in my opinion build big legs. To quantify, ask yourself this. How many 1500 meter runners do you see with big legs and thats under 4 minutes workout! Now sprinters do have bigger thighs and hams and their workout lasts under 10 secs!!!!!!!!! You gotta train legs bro

[Flexor]

How many 1500 meter runners do you see with big legs and thats under 4 minutes workout! Now sprinters do have bigger thighs and hams and their workout lasts under 10 secs!!!!!!!!! You gotta train legs bro

Different types of runners have different ratios of fast/slow twitch fibres. You can't compare their leg size, also you are forgetting they put hours of work into their legs in the weight room. Sprinters go for power and size with the weights, longer distance runners do not.

[ROBOCOP]

Different types of runners have different ratios of fast/slow twitch fibres. You can't compare their leg size, also you are forgetting they put hours of work into their legs in the weight room. Sprinters go for power and size with the weights, longer distance runners do not.

Agreed. I am not suggesting that they dont train their legs, as i obviously know they do. My point is that training legs just by running can only shape the muscle at best and not build mass. It will not recruit the compouinds needed for growth. It surely works on the same principle as a normal ratio of reps/sets. The more repetitions the more toned! Jees!!! Dorian Yates swears by the 1 rep. Squatting as heavy as he can for 1 or 2 sets at most. His legs arent exactly slender now are they?

[Flexor]

Agreed. I am not suggesting that they dont train their legs, as i obviously know they do. My point is that training legs just by running can only shape the muscle at best and not build mass. It will not recruit the compouinds needed for growth. It surely works on the same principle as a normal ratio of reps/sets. The more repetitions the more toned! Jees!!! Dorian Yates swears by the 1 rep. Squatting as heavy as he can for 1 or 2 sets at most. His legs arent exactly slender now are they?

No specific exercises help shape a muscle, that's actually a myth. There are 'shaping exercises' though, but they only have an effect on the final stria of the muscle if near full size has been reached. Sprinting will build some mass...

More repetitions does not mean more tone, that is the other myth. Tone is increased by heavy weights, as this means more tension is placed across the muscle. Everybody is different and will respond to different things, also there are many ways to gain size and Yates' HIT method is one of them.

Shape is genetic, and it gets better the bigger you get and the nearer you are to your genetic limits. You can't get good shape before you've got the size and development

[ROBOCOP]

I think we may be at cross purposes here. I totally agree that we all respond differently but the fact still remains that building good un adulterated mass can only be achieved with heavy resistance training and not high reps with a lighter weight. May be im misunderstanding you, but im dead in the water if you can achieve mass in your legs with just running!

[chinups]

I have large leds to begin with. Gynetics or just yrs of playing sports. I was thinking by running I would not lose the size I have gained but keep it and get more toned. Am I wrong???? I don't want to look like one of those freaks on the beach with there legs rubbing and talking about they can squat 2000 lbs at 30. If I am not competing for anything that is

[Flexor]

I think we may be at cross purposes here. I totally agree that we all respond differently but the fact still remains that building good un adulterated mass can only be achieved with heavy resistance training and not high reps with a lighter weight. May be im misunderstanding you, but im dead in the water if you can achieve mass in your legs with just running!

I totally agree with what you just said. The point I was making was that high reps don't tone, AND they are not generally as good at building mass. You can't achieve mass with just running, no. And also, you cannot change the shape of your muscles, other than increasing their mass and letting the shape come.

[ROBOCOP]

I totally agree with what you just said. The point I was making was that high reps don't tone, AND they are not generally as good at building mass. You can't achieve mass with just running, no. And also, you cannot change the shape of your muscles, other than increasing their mass and letting the shape come.

Hey, its good to hear peoples opinions. We all have them and need to express them once in a while. I love training legs and i train them hard. I used to be heavily into running several years ago and i had the skinniest legs anyone had ever seen, even with the weights. I just didnt train them as hard and heavy as i do now. Thankfully my legs have improved beyond measure over the years, still not huge but if only you could see them back then!!!!

[Flexor]

Hey, its good to hear peoples opinions. We all have them and need to express them once in a while. I love training legs and i train them hard. I used to be heavily into running several years ago and i had the skinniest legs anyone had ever seen, even with the weights. I just didnt train them as hard and heavy as i do now. Thankfully my legs have improved beyond measure over the years, still not huge but if only you could see them back then!!!!

I'm into running a lot, mostly 400 and 800. Weight lifting will help me gain more explosive power for the sprint at the end. I could do with some more size. Btw, its actually proven high reps don't tone

[ROBOCOP]

I have large leds to begin with. Gynetics or just yrs of playing sports. I was thinking by running I would not lose the size I have gained but keep it and get more toned. Am I wrong???? I don't want to look like one of those freaks on the beach with there legs rubbing and talking about they can squat 2000 lbs at 30. If I am not competing for anything that is

Im not even sure if running will enable you to maintain your size bro. As flexor said, we all respond differently and if youve always had big legs then it may be down to your genetics pure and simple, so maybe its worth a try!

[Flexor]

Im not even sure if running will enable you to maintain your size bro. As flexor said, we all respond differently and if youve always had big legs then it may be down to your genetics pure and simple, so maybe its worth a try!

Agreed!

[JR.SHRED]

If you want your legs to match your upper body, you have to train legs period.IMO

[ROBOCOP]

Btw, its actually proven high reps don't tone

Explain, im interested to know what high reps achieve other than a slight increase in mass or shape. (Is this not toning):

[Flexor]

Explain, im interested to know what high reps achieve other than a slight increase in mass or shape. (Is this not toning):

High reps will increase the endurance capacity of the muscle by increasing capillarisation and the number of mitochondria. It makes it more efficient for stamina. Higher reps will also hit the slower twtich fibres as well as fast twitch type A. This can lead to hypertrophy in those, but overall gains will be low since those types of fibres do not grow as much as the fast twitch type B and C.

Tone is simply a low level of contractile activity across the muscle, giving the appearance of tightness and firmness. This isn't increased by high reps, it is gained by doing any type of exercise. It is said that lower reps help with tone though, because there is more tension put across the muscle during the lift. If you want tone, do any exercise.

Definition is simply low bodyfat.

[ROBOCOP]

High reps will increase the endurance capacity of the muscle by increasing capillarisation and the number of mitochondria. It makes it more efficient for stamina. Higher reps will also hit the slower twtich fibres as well as fast twitch type A. This can lead to hypertrophy in those, but overall gains will be low since those types of fibres do not grow as much as the fast twitch type B and C.

Tone is simply a low level of contractile activity across the muscle, giving the appearance of tightness and firmness. This isn't increased by high reps, it is gained by doing any type of exercise. It is said that lower reps help with tone though, because there is more tension put across the muscle during the lift. If you want tone, do any exercise.

Definition is simply low bodyfat.

Yeah, i understand all that. Eliquently put my man!

[doby48]

Since endurance athletes came up here...
Cyclists work on both fast-twitch and slow-twitch muscle fibers as it is important to have the slow-twitch for endurance so you can make the long ride but the fast-twitch are also important for when you need bursts of speed such as trying to make a pass, crossing the finish line, etc. That being said endurance athletes will train by both cardio, HIIT and strength training. Although the amount of strength training will vary by time of season. For example, cyclists have 4-5 phases depending on the training program type they following

Phase 1 (Transition)
This phase is to adjust your body to begin strength training and is done after the racing season has ended. This phase lasts typically 4 weeks, includes 1-3 sets of 15-20 repititions of minimum intensity 2-3 days per week. The types of exercises done during this phase is general circut training, body weight exercises, etc.

Phase 2 (Preperation Phase I)
This phase is to build muscle tissue and is done follwoing the Transition phase. This phase lasts 4-6 weeks, includes 3-4 sets of 8-12 repitions of moderate intensity 3 times a week. The types of exercises done during this phase is to target key muscle groups.

Phase 3 (Preperation Phase II)
This phase is to gain strength and is done following the Prep Phase I. This phase lasts 4-6 weeks, includes 5-6 sets of 1-6 reps of High Intensity (80% - 100% of max) 3 times a week. The types of exercises done during this phase is compound exercises, as well as spefic exercises to target your weeker muscles.

Phase 4 (Specialization)
This phase is to gain strength and is done following the Prep Phase II. This phase lasts 4-6 weeks, includes 5-6 sets of 10-15 reps of Moderate intensity 2-3 times a week. The types of exercises done during this phase is to work muscle groups specific to cyclining like Squats, 1/4 squats, lungles, rows, deadlifts, etc.

Phase 5 (Competition)
This phase lasts during cycling season and goes until the Transition phase starts. This phase includes 1-3 sets of 6-10 reps of Very Low intensity 1-2 days per week. The muscles targeted during this phase is the ones that are not directly affected while cycling.

Cardio is done several times a week depending on the season from 2-5 days a week and HIIT is done different times of the year and different number of days as well. I just wanted to give this schedule to show that endurance athlets do in fact do strength training, but it is not at the same level year around so you will not see the same gains as someone who would work weights at a certain intensity and interval throughout the year.

[Flexor]

Thanks doby, being a cyclist I find this information very relevant. Initially cardio was my thing, but when I branched into weight training I stopped researching cardio and endurance related training and instead learnt all I could about kinesiology. I really should go back to learning about cardio and stuff, especially since I am wanting to get back into some kind of competitive activity, whether its track running or cycling. Cheers

[doby48]

And just for a visual, here is a picture of Giddeon Massie (US Olympic Track Cyclist) he was featured on this months edition of Bicycling magazine. I have never seen stats specifically for Massie on how much he can squat but most professional male cyclists squat in the 400-500lb range.

[Flexor]

And just for a visual, here is a picture of Giddeon Massie (US Olympic Track Cyclist) he was featured on this months edition of Bicycling magazine. I have never seen stats specifically for Massie on how much he can squat but most professional male cyclists squat in the 400-500lb range.

Track cyclists, I ain't one. I'm more into the endurance side, although not the hard core extremes of it. Ask most Tour de France cyclists what they can squat and it won't be 500. They are quite strong for their bodyweight, but they are endurance adapted and their slow twitch are highly developed. 500 would be out of the question. I have no idea how that weakling can squat 500lbs, he must have been powerlifting for years!

[doby48]

I'm not a track cyclist either but cycling is still a great sport either way... I apologize I need to make a correction to that cyclists can squat 500lbs HOWEVER cyclist do partial squats very frequently and the 500lbs is what they do for a partial squat (10 reps ot 500lb partial squat) not full squat legs parallel.

[lilKimmy2]

Since what you are trying to obtain is purely appearance based I would say that running is a great option, If you are going to begin distance running than you will obviously lose some of the explosive muscle fibers because they will be changed to type I slow twitch , which are typically long and lean. Since I am a track athlete I notice that each event's athlete has a specific body type, distance runners are most efficient at a low weight with very little body fat/muscle tone; the less running there is involved the more muscle mass(power, explosive type II) is added onto the athlete... typical in sprinters, long/triple jumpers, some polevaulters, and then of course your beefy shotputters/throwers! Start puttin in some miles buddy! If your legs are already in great form they will probably react very quickly.

[chinups]

thanks kimmy

Someone actaully read MY thread

[Doc.Sust]

No specific exercises help shape a muscle, that's actually a myth. There are 'shaping exercises' though, but they only have an effect on the final stria of the muscle if near full size has been reached. Sprinting will build some mass...

More repetitions does not mean more tone, that is the other myth. Tone is increased by heavy weights, as this means more tension is placed across the muscle. Everybody is different and will respond to different things, also there are many ways to gain size and Yates' HIT method is one of them.

Shape is genetic, and it gets better the bigger you get and the nearer you are to your genetic limits. You can't get good shape before you've got the size and development

EXACTLY!!!!! flex you know your stuff! with lifting you can build size or strength thats it, you cant lift to get cut. to get cut you do cardio. bottom line is, do some leg work at least once a wk, and with added cardio you legs willl get ample exercise