Help developing a better mid back

**Massacre** · 01-30-2006, 01:05 PM

I'm currently doing 3 sets of the following:

Deads, Lat pulls, Rows.

What am I missing to build a better mid back section? It seems I am extremely wide but I fail to have the development I seek in my mid back. What can I add to help me put to put it together?

**Papi93** · 01-30-2006, 01:39 PM

Originally Posted by Massacre

I'm currently doing 3 sets of the following:

Deads, Lat pulls, Rows.

What am I missing to build a better mid back section? It seems I am extremely wide but I fail to have the development I seek in my mid back. What can I add to help me put to put it together?

Pronated-Grip Deadlifts - great stablizing exercise for the mid-back.
Lat Pulls are will stress the vertical pulling muscles primarily (i.e. the lats).
Rows - which style are you employing. Good horizontal pulling movement. I would pick a row that helps you keep your elbows closer to the torso (i.e. close-supinated grip bent-over rows or neutral grip, 3 Point DB Rows).

Close-Neutral Grip Rows are a personal favorite of mine. Stick a barbell in the corner of the room. Place a close-neutral grip handle under the end of the barbell. It is similar, in performance, the non-trunk supported t-bar rows. With the close-neutral grip, it will keep your elbows in tighter to your body and address the mid-back area.

**geobatman** · 01-30-2006, 08:35 PM

Papi can you explain this please?

"Close-Neutral Grip Rows are a personal favorite of mine. Stick a barbell in the corner of the room. Place a close-neutral grip handle under the end of the barbell. It is similar, in performance, the non-trunk supported t-bar rows. With the close-neutral grip, it will keep your elbows in tighter to your body and address the mid-back area."

Perhaps with a link?
I'd like to try this but can't understand it based on words

**keth'naab** · 01-30-2006, 10:59 PM

Pendlay Rows

**-DedicateD-** · 01-31-2006, 08:56 AM

I believe what Papi is describing is a variation of a t-bar row. Take a standard barbell and place one end of it in the corner of a room. Load the weight onto the opposite end of the bar and place the neutral v-grip attatchment (for the lat pulldown, row) underneath the bar so the grips are facing you. I like to slide the grip to the end of the barbell to prevent it from slipping down when I am in the middle of a set. When you are doing the exercise the neutral grip will help your elbows stay in tighter to your sides working the middle back to a larger extent.

**MASTER** · 01-31-2006, 08:59 AM

Heavy ass bent over rows! T bars are aight too.

**Papi93** · 01-31-2006, 09:50 AM

Originally Posted by -DedicateD-

I believe what Papi is describing is a variation of a t-bar row. Take a standard barbell and place one end of it in the corner of a room. Load the weight onto the opposite end of the bar and place the neutral v-grip attatchment (for the lat pulldown, row) underneath the bar so the grips are facing you. I like to slide the grip to the end of the barbell to prevent it from slipping down when I am in the middle of a set. When you are doing the exercise the neutral grip will help your elbows stay in tighter to your sides working the middle back to a larger extent.

That's it. I was trying to go on abc bodybuilding . com but there site was down. I thought there might be a picture there. No luck yet.

**-DedicateD-** · 01-31-2006, 11:31 AM

This is pretty much what we were trying to describe.

http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/t_bar.htm

**Papi93** · 01-31-2006, 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by -DedicateD-

This is pretty much what we were trying to describe.

http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/t_bar.htm

Thanks. For some reason, my computer couldn't get that site up. It's working now.

**novastepp** · 01-31-2006, 11:39 AM

Sweet, hey could i use this instead of rows? or should i keep up with the..
Deads, Pulldowns, Rows, and add this in there too?

**Papi93** · 01-31-2006, 12:22 PM

Originally Posted by novastepp

Sweet, hey could i use this instead of rows? or should i keep up with the..
Deads, Pulldowns, Rows, and add this in there too?

You could use it as a substitute for the bent-over rows.

**-DedicateD-** · 01-31-2006, 03:13 PM

Originally Posted by novastepp

Sweet, hey could i use this instead of rows? or should i keep up with the..
Deads, Pulldowns, Rows, and add this in there too?

I like to use bent over rows on my back day one week, and the next week do t-bar rows just for variety.

**novastepp** · 01-31-2006, 03:47 PM

thanks guys...

**keth'naab** · 01-31-2006, 06:09 PM

barbell rows, DB rows and T-Bar rows aren't worth a shit if you're doing them wrong.

pendlay rows will bring out every damn bit of your back. The width, the depth, the definition (Assuming proper diet and bf%)

I do barbell, T-Bars and DBs, but you gotta do them RIGHT.

**geobatman** · 01-31-2006, 06:42 PM

Originally Posted by Papi93

Thanks. For some reason, my computer couldn't get that site up. It's working now.

****ing sweet.........thnx guys

**Canadiantiger** · 01-31-2006, 10:12 PM

I use bent rows. I always bend as close to 90 degrees as possible using a wide grip to reduce bicep recruitment and pull to the upper abdomen just below my chest. I also squeeze the ever living s*@t out of it at full contraction.

**Papi93** · 02-01-2006, 08:42 AM

Originally Posted by keth'naab

barbell rows, DB rows and T-Bar rows aren't worth a shit if you're doing them wrong.

pendlay rows will bring out every damn bit of your back. The width, the depth, the definition (Assuming proper diet and bf%)

I do barbell, T-Bars and DBs, but you gotta do them RIGHT.

What's pendlay rows?

**-DedicateD-** · 02-01-2006, 09:09 AM

I found this off of a website describing pendlay rows:

Rows: Well, the best way to do them is to start with the bar on the floor every single rep. Your middle back will have slight bend to it. You pull the bar off the floor quickly with the arms, and by a powerful arch of your middle back. You finish by touching the bar to your upper stomach or middle stomach. At no time is there any movement of the hips or knees, no hip extension at all, all that bends is the middle back and the shoulders and elbows.

This is hard to do and you have to have good muscular control to do it, or you'll end up straightening up at the hips along with the arching of the back. But if you can master doing them this way you will get a big back. This works because the lats actually extend (arch) the middle back in addition to other functions, just like with glute-ham extensions compared to leg curls…you always get a stronger contraction when you move both the origin and insertion of a muscle, flexing it from both ends so to speak.

The bar returns to the floor after each rep. The bent row is actually best done as an explosive movement and the bar is moved fast. I have trained many people who could do this exercise with 350 or more lbs. I myself have done reps with 425, Ed Coan, who also knows how to do them properly, has done reps with over 500lbs without his back ever coming above parallel with the ground. That is stronger than Dorian Yates or Ronnie Coleman, by the way.

I did rows with Coleman once, actually, and I was far stronger than he was. He could not do more than 350lbs strictly although he could do over 500lbs by standing almost all the way up at the completion of each rep. Ed Coan is probably the strongest person on these, although one power-lifter I trained did manage 525 for a double done strictly.

Rows look at an anatomy chart. if the scapula and upper arms are held in a constant position, shortening of the lats WILL result in arching of the middle and upper back. i AM NOT saying that the lats are primarily responsible for upper back flexion... what i am saying is that they can assist in this.

i also HAVE done EMG work on various different rowing techniques... and there is not doubt that rows performed as i describe them will activate the lats more completely than done any other way i have ever seen. i have done EMG work on a large quantity of people for rows... and ive always found that these kind of rows activate the lats most completely. and besides, even if you dont buy the fact that they activate the lats better, hell, you can always be content with the fact that your getting an erector workout.

1. heres a couple of pics, 2 of the starting position, 1 of the finished position. looks so simple im almost embarrassed to post them... and this kid is terrible at relaxing his upper back at the start, but you can see that he is "scunching" his upper back at the top, trying to arch the upper spine as much as possible, thats really the key to get as much activation as possible, making the attempt to arch your back, upper back specifically as much as possible at the top, without extending the hips. you can see that his hip angle doesnt change at all, the chest comes up becasue he is arching his back as he pulls but the hips dont extend. when you let the bar down, let the upper back relax, and if possible bend the spine a little and let the shoulders come forward, then as you pull the bar up, pull the shoulders back, arch the back, and pull with the arms all at the same time. looks simple, and really is simple to do once you do it once and see how it feels. with a guy like t his who cant bend his upper back that well, it doesnt look much different than any other row, but again, its the effort to pull tyhe shoulders back and arch the back as you pull that makes the difference, even though there will be more spinal and shoulder movement in some people than others.

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/alban.v/dive...ny14%20058.jpg
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/alban.v/dive...ny14%20067.jpg
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/alban.v/dive...ny14%20068.jpg

2. heres a couple more from the side that show better start and end position. look at the difference in the arch of the back how far the shoulders are pulled back, but no real difference in hip angle.

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/alban.v/dive...ny15%20001.jpg
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/alban.v/dive...ny15%20003.jpg

**Papi93** · 02-01-2006, 10:49 AM

Thanks for the post, DedicateD.

It sounds like he is trying to activate the lats with this row. Am I reading this correctly?

**-DedicateD-** · 02-01-2006, 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by Papi93

Thanks for the post, DedicateD.

It sounds like he is trying to activate the lats with this row. Am I reading this correctly?

Im actually not sure...its not as smooth as a read as I would like it to be. It looks like a bent over row to me, but then just resting the bar on the floor in between sets? In terms of what exactly it is working I would imagine it might depend on grip, hand position, and where exactly the bar is being brought to. I just did back yesterday, so Im gunna try this out next week with a shoulder lenght grip or wider and see how it works.

**Papi93** · 02-01-2006, 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by -DedicateD-

Im actually not sure...its not as smooth as a read as I would like it to be. It looks like a bent over row to me, but then just resting the bar on the floor in between sets? In terms of what exactly it is working I would imagine it might depend on grip, hand position, and where exactly the bar is being brought to. I just did back yesterday, so Im gunna try this out next week with a shoulder lenght grip or wider and see how it works.

The article was not written very well. It appears to be old-school bent-over rows, with the torso staying parallel with the ground. The only difference appears that the barbell is placed on the ground after each rep. Similar to doing deadlifts, I guess.

**-DedicateD-** · 02-01-2006, 03:25 PM

I dunno what the benefits of the pendlay rows would be over regular bent over rows..maybe just a better way to get full ROM for the fact that you put the weight back down...if anything it would be taking the stress off the erector muscles in lower back and allow an easier time keeping the body parallel to the ground during the actual rowing movement.

**Papi93** · 02-01-2006, 03:35 PM

Originally Posted by -DedicateD-

I dunno what the benefits of the pendlay rows would be over regular bent over rows..maybe just a better way to get full ROM for the fact that you put the weight back down...if anything it would be taking the stress off the erector muscles in lower back and allow an easier time keeping the body parallel to the ground during the actual rowing movement.

I agree. It's just another exercise option, not the miracle back builder that the article makes it out to be.