Dogcrapp versus Ironman's Hit progrm, Help please.

**WHOADY4SHOADY** · 01-31-2006, 12:37 PM

Guys Im having trouble deciding between Dogcrapp traing and Ironman's HIT program. They seem very similar, But to me DC makes more sense. The only difference I can see is that DC advocates one set til failure, and HIT recommeds 3 sets til failure. It doest make sense to me to do more than one set til failure on each excersise. Can you guys give me some light at the end of the tunnel, cause Im lost in the dark. LOL.

**spound** · 01-31-2006, 01:15 PM

You can't go wrong with either program.

**The Iron Man** · 01-31-2006, 01:17 PM

Originally Posted by WHOADY4SHOADY

Guys Im having trouble deciding between Dogcrapp traing and Ironman's HIT program. They seem very similar, But to me DC makes more sense. The only difference I can see is that DC advocates one set til failure, and HIT recommeds 3 sets til failure. It doest make sense to me to do more than one set til failure on each excersise. Can you guys give me some light at the end of the tunnel, cause Im lost in the dark. LOL.

Go re-read the part in PINNACLES-STICKY about our muscle containing 3 sub-categories of type 2 fibers-(A-B-C). It takes 1 set of 11-15 reps done to failure or right at it to fully stimulate the A-FIBERS, another set of 6-10 to fully stimulate the B-FIBERS, and a 3rd set of 1-5 reps to fully stimulate the C-FIBERS. That's why three sets are needed to fully activate each of the 3 sub-categories of type a fibers.

I'm not going to put down Dante's training methods or any one elses for that matter but I can back up my routine with scientific evidence.

**taiboxa** · 01-31-2006, 01:36 PM

cycle them i guess ><

**WHOADY4SHOADY** · 01-31-2006, 02:33 PM

Originally Posted by The Iron Man

Go re-read the part in PINNACLES-STICKY about our muscle containing 3 sub-categories of type 2 fibers-(A-B-C). It takes 1 set of 11-15 reps done to failure or right at it to fully stimulate the A-FIBERS, another set of 6-10 to fully stimulate the B-FIBERS, and a 3rd set of 1-5 reps to fully stimulate the C-FIBERS. That's why three sets are needed to fully activate each of the 3 sub-categories of type a fibers.

I'm not going to put down Dante's training methods or any one elses for that matter but I can back up my routine with scientific evidence.

Thanks for the reply. My only confusion?problem with your program is that I dont understand how I would be able to pyramid the weight up each set, cause I know for a fact that when I fail on my first set of lets say bench, If I am useing 225 for my first set at 15, the second set I will fail at about 8 reps, and on the 3rd set I will fail at about 4 or 5 reps. This will all happen at the same weight. Thats just how my body works, if I move the weight up each set I will not get my reps. Is this normal or ok? Thanks so much for your help. Also what should I do if for one of the 3 sets til failure, I dont make the reps I needed for one of the ranges, or I go over the reps for one of the ranges? Does this mean that I have to add a fourth set til failure to hit the rep range/muscle type?

**SwoleCat** · 01-31-2006, 02:38 PM

Originally Posted by WHOADY4SHOADY

Guys Im having trouble deciding between Dogcrapp traing and Ironman's HIT program. They seem very similar, But to me DC makes more sense. The only difference I can see is that DC advocates one set til failure, and HIT recommeds 3 sets til failure. It doest make sense to me to do more than one set til failure on each excersise. Can you guys give me some light at the end of the tunnel, cause Im lost in the dark. LOL.

The question no one seemed to ask you is:

"What are your goals?"

Disclosing that may lead you to a more accurate answer.

~SC~

**WHOADY4SHOADY** · 01-31-2006, 03:28 PM

Well, Ive been Injured for a while with a torn rotator and Im just getting back into everthing. Im looking to lose some fat, and Ive been doing morning cardio at 60 to 65% mhr for 45 minutes a everyday. But I have also lost alot of muscle, so I feel I need to bulk up, lol if that can possibly make any sense. Another words Im not worried about looks per say right now. I really just want to get back into it right now. I have my diet in check. Getting about 300g og protein a day and I cut out all the unessential carbs. My weight right now is 260 at 6ft, and I would take a guess and say Im at 20%BF. Id ultimately like to get to around 220 at 13 or below BF but I know thats a long way off. But Im hear to stay and I will be posting before and after pics of whatever I choose to do. Ive been through it before this injury, but the only way I went wrong was I was running way to fast for to long and It took its tole on all the muscle I was working for (got as rediculous as 2 miles in 9 and a half min). Since Ive been injured I have read and learned a great deal from alot of the great guys, including you Swole Cat. Thanks again for your time.

**IronReload04** · 01-31-2006, 03:32 PM

Originally Posted by The Iron Man

Go re-read the part in PINNACLES-STICKY about our muscle containing 3 sub-categories of type 2 fibers-(A-B-C). It takes 1 set of 11-15 reps done to failure or right at it to fully stimulate the A-FIBERS, another set of 6-10 to fully stimulate the B-FIBERS, and a 3rd set of 1-5 reps to fully stimulate the C-FIBERS. That's why three sets are needed to fully activate each of the 3 sub-categories of type a fibers.

I'm not going to put down Dante's training methods or any one elses for that matter but I can back up my routine with scientific evidence.

as far as scientific evidence is concerned. it is scientifically proven that YOU only need .8 grams of proteiin per pound to be successful in weight training.

So, i wouldnt go as far as relying on scientific evidence. i am however open to new ideas and will give that pinnacle thread a read when i get a chance

**WHOADY4SHOADY** · 01-31-2006, 04:16 PM

LOL, everyones a critc. Cant say I blame you though.

**Pinnacle** · 01-31-2006, 05:28 PM

Originally Posted by IronReload04

as far as scientific evidence is concerned. it is scientifically proven that YOU only need .8 grams of proteiin per pound to be successful in weight training.

I can't locate the studies the Japanese did with weight training and diet.But in the studies they had trainees eat a "Near starvation" diet and they actually gained solid muscle.Mind you,it was minimal,but they did in fact put on muscle while on a very restricted(starvation) diet.

IronReload04 are you saying you need higher amounts of protein,or do you feel you can get by with less?Not certain as to which side of the fence you are on?

~Pinnacle~

**WHOADY4SHOADY** · 01-31-2006, 06:19 PM

Originally Posted by Pinnacle

I can't locate the studies the Japanese did with weight training and diet.But in the studies they had trainees eat a "Near starvation" diet and they actually gained solid muscle.Mind you,it was minimal,but they did in fact put on muscle while on a very restricted(starvation) diet.

IronReload04 are you saying you need higher amounts of protein,or do you feel you can get by with less?Not certain as to which side of the fence you are on?

~Pinnacle~

Hey this is my post, I want to be in the limelight!

**Pinnacle** · 01-31-2006, 07:52 PM

Originally Posted by WHOADY4SHOADY

Hey this is my post, I want to be in the limelight!

Buy all means...whore away bro

WHOADY4SHOADY RULES!!!!

PLEASE IGNORE MY POST.............

~Pinnacle~

**joeben22** · 02-01-2006, 02:49 AM

bump for the protein ques.

**WHOADY4SHOADY** · 02-01-2006, 10:36 AM

Originally Posted by Pinnacle

Buy all means...whore away bro

WHOADY4SHOADY RULES!!!!

PLEASE IGNORE MY POST.............

~Pinnacle~

Your to kind.

**ryamigo** · 02-01-2006, 09:27 PM

try the HIT routine first

DC reccomends trying every possible avenue (training and diet routines) before going onto DC

**spound** · 02-01-2006, 10:53 PM

Originally Posted by ryamigo

try the HIT routine first

DC reccomends trying every possible avenue (training and diet routines) before going onto DC

WHy does he recommend that?

**GettinStacked** · 02-01-2006, 11:42 PM

Whats up bro, I am not a pro on the subject, but here is my opinion. I have just started DC's routine (natural for now) and though I really cant tell anything yet, I will let you know how it goes if you want. If you decide to go HIT the please keep me informed cause I went through the same struggle. With so many plans, all with people backing and downing them, how do you know which one? Well I decided DC's for now and no doubt I am not doing it exactly as he would have me (even though I am trying my hardest to do everything right so I know if it gives me the gains I want). I personally think that you should pick a program, dedicate yourself to it and then if it works well for you stick to it. To each his own everyone is different with different goals and different stuff going on in their life that can help or hinder their results. SO.... absorb as much as you can, make an educated decision based on your goals, and run with it. Good luck!

PS. Take the advice of some of the real pros on here into consideration, these guys have been doin it for years.

**spound** · 02-02-2006, 12:56 AM

Originally Posted by GettinStacked

Whats up bro, I am not a pro on the subject, but here is my opinion. I have just started DC's routine (natural for now) and though I really cant tell anything yet, I will let you know how it goes if you want. If you decide to go HIT the please keep me informed cause I went through the same struggle. With so many plans, all with people backing and downing them, how do you know which one? Well I decided DC's for now and no doubt I am not doing it exactly as he would have me (even though I am trying my hardest to do everything right so I know if it gives me the gains I want). I personally think that you should pick a program, dedicate yourself to it and then if it works well for you stick to it. To each his own everyone is different with different goals and different stuff going on in their life that can help or hinder their results. SO.... absorb as much as you can, make an educated decision based on your goals, and run with it. Good luck!

PS. Take the advice of some of the real pros on here into consideration, these guys have been doin it for years.

BINGO!!!

**WHOADY4SHOADY** · 02-02-2006, 07:39 AM

Thanks a bunch for the replys? I wish you the best on your routines, and Ill keep you guys infomed on my routines and how they go. For now though I think im going to have to go with some type of higher volume training that doesnt require me to go til total muscular failure. Its just to hard on me, ever sice that injury. I just hope I can make gains without going til failure. Some say yes others say no. O well, its not like I have a choice right now. Peace.

**spound** · 02-02-2006, 12:46 PM

Originally Posted by WHOADY4SHOADY

Thanks a bunch for the replys? I wish you the best on your routines, and Ill keep you guys infomed on my routines and how they go. For now though I think im going to have to go with some type of higher volume training that doesnt require me to go til total muscular failure. Its just to hard on me, ever sice that injury. I just hope I can make gains without going til failure. Some say yes others say no. O well, its not like I have a choice right now. Peace.

What are your problem areas/injuries? You can modify either routine around them I am sure.

**WHOADY4SHOADY** · 02-02-2006, 05:53 PM

I have a tear in my left rotator cuff. But I dont really have problems with shoulder excersises. What happens is anytime I workout hard or til failure, I have pain in my upperback, neck area. When ever I work out, the left side hurts 3 to 4 x as bad and takes twice as long to heal up. To tell you the truth all of the doctors I have seen are at a loss, they dont know whats wrong with me. Ive had many MRIs and have even gone to the sports orthepedic that works on all of the NewOrleans Saints. So its not like Im seeing chicken shit doctors. I have been inactive for 3 years and cant stand it anymore, but most routines hurt. I just dont know, how I can grow if I cant go hard. Im basically just pissed off and talking out my ass. Im probably not even going to be able to work out for long, but Ill try.

**spound** · 02-02-2006, 07:25 PM

Originally Posted by WHOADY4SHOADY

I have a tear in my left rotator cuff. But I dont really have problems with shoulder excersises. What happens is anytime I workout hard or til failure, I have pain in my upperback, neck area. When ever I work out, the left side hurts 3 to 4 x as bad and takes twice as long to heal up. To tell you the truth all of the doctors I have seen are at a loss, they dont know whats wrong with me. Ive had many MRIs and have even gone to the sports orthepedic that works on all of the NewOrleans Saints. So its not like Im seeing chicken shit doctors. I have been inactive for 3 years and cant stand it anymore, but most routines hurt. I just dont know, how I can grow if I cant go hard. Im basically just pissed off and talking out my ass. Im probably not even going to be able to work out for long, but Ill try.

SO this happens when you train, but it ONLY happens when you train to failure??? If this is the case, I would have to believe that you were training BEYOND failure. To me, training to failure is doing reps of a certain exercise until you can't do them anymore WITHOUT losing form. Not training until you simply can not move the weight anymore, regardless of form. Maybe it is from your form breaking down?

**ryamigo** · 02-02-2006, 08:58 PM

Originally Posted by spound

WHy does he recommend that?

i guess the reason being that you should try out all other programs first to see what's best for your body type, then venture into his program after all others have gone stale.

so, try HIT first....there's less you have to worry about I think...DC requires lots of adjustments....and i just feel that HIT is a lil simpler but you still get that lower volume training, if that's what your looking for

**ryamigo** · 02-02-2006, 09:01 PM

Originally Posted by ryamigo

i guess the reason being that you should try out all other programs first to see what's best for your body type, then venture into his program after all others have gone stale.

so, try HIT first....there's less you have to worry about I think...DC requires lots of adjustments....and i just feel that HIT is a lil simpler but you still get that lower volume training, if that's what your looking for

but putting all that aside....DC is a sweet ass program. I have a feeling if you try it you'll like it

**WHOADY4SHOADY** · 02-03-2006, 10:32 AM

Originally Posted by spound

SO this happens when you train, but it ONLY happens when you train to failure??? If this is the case, I would have to believe that you were training BEYOND failure. To me, training to failure is doing reps of a certain exercise until you can't do them anymore WITHOUT losing form. Not training until you simply can not move the weight anymore, regardless of form. Maybe it is from your form breaking down?

Well, actually the pain is always there, it just becomes more prevalent after straining or worling out. Yes, when I go til failure, I would always go until I counldnt move the weight anymore, and friend would have to put one finger on it to move it uo on the last rep. My form wouldnt break down though. Another words the bar would still move in a straight path, without being crooked and what not. Is this wrong. Thanks in advance Spound.

**The Iron Man** · 02-03-2006, 03:11 PM

Originally Posted by WHOADY4SHOADY

I have a tear in my left rotator cuff. But I dont really have problems with shoulder excersises. What happens is anytime I workout hard or til failure, I have pain in my upperback, neck area. When ever I work out, the left side hurts 3 to 4 x as bad and takes twice as long to heal up. To tell you the truth all of the doctors I have seen are at a loss, they dont know whats wrong with me. Ive had many MRIs and have even gone to the sports orthepedic that works on all of the NewOrleans Saints. So its not like Im seeing chicken shit doctors. I have been inactive for 3 years and cant stand it anymore, but most routines hurt. I just dont know, how I can grow if I cant go hard. Im basically just pissed off and talking out my ass. Im probably not even going to be able to work out for long, but Ill try.

Did they do an MRI on your neck or shoulder? Is it a (BURNING) type of pain that starts in the neck region and works its way into the shoulders?

**WHOADY4SHOADY** · 02-03-2006, 04:06 PM

I have had 3 shoulder MRi, one neck, my whole scapular area. They even did a contrast MRI where they inject dye into my shoulder. I have had five MRIs altogether. Countless xrays, and even a couple of EMGs. Ive been to 2 neurologist and they all say Im healthy by their standards. Its crazy man. I have pain in my neck and trap of the left side at all times, which becomes worse after a workout. My left peck and bicep always become much more sore compared to my right. Its really strange. Its just so hard to get motivated and really into it when it hurts so bad to workout, and so long to heal. The strangest part is that even though I have a tear in my rotator cuff, I really dont have problems with shoulder movements or exibit normal problems of that area. It makes no sense and adds to my mental wellness. Cause I keep wondering WTF is wrong with me.

**The Iron Man** · 02-07-2006, 04:10 PM

Originally Posted by WHOADY4SHOADY

I have had 3 shoulder MRi, one neck, my whole scapular area. They even did a contrast MRI where they inject dye into my shoulder. I have had five MRIs altogether. Countless xrays, and even a couple of EMGs. Ive been to 2 neurologist and they all say Im healthy by their standards. Its crazy man. I have pain in my neck and trap of the left side at all times, which becomes worse after a workout. My left peck and bicep always become much more sore compared to my right. Its really strange. Its just so hard to get motivated and really into it when it hurts so bad to workout, and so long to heal. The strangest part is that even though I have a tear in my rotator cuff, I really dont have problems with shoulder movements or exibit normal problems of that area. It makes no sense and adds to my mental wellness. Cause I keep wondering WTF is wrong with me.

Have you tried going to the chiropractor? I'm almost 100% positive you have a sublaxation issue going on here in the upper spine region and no medical doctor can fix that.

**spound** · 02-07-2006, 06:33 PM

Originally Posted by WHOADY4SHOADY

Well, actually the pain is always there, it just becomes more prevalent after straining or worling out. Yes, when I go til failure, I would always go until I counldnt move the weight anymore, and friend would have to put one finger on it to move it uo on the last rep. My form wouldnt break down though. Another words the bar would still move in a straight path, without being crooked and what not. Is this wrong. Thanks in advance Spound.

No, that sounds right, JUST AS LOGN AS YOU DONT SACRIFICE GOOD FORM FOR ANOTHER REP(s). I don't know what to say though about your pains, but you can still grow muscle without training to COMPLETE failure. Does it still bother you if you train 1-2 reps aways from failure? I can't comment on much else, as I am no doctor and am in no way qualified to diagnose anything. I would listen to iron man though about the chiropractor....you got nothing to lose.

**WHOADY4SHOADY** · 02-07-2006, 08:01 PM

Originally Posted by The Iron Man

Have you tried going to the chiropractor? I'm almost 100% positive you have a sublaxation issue going on here in the upper spine region and no medical doctor can fix that.

Not to be a dick, but Ive been there done that. Ive even done accupuncture. Not to mention Ive had orthroscopic surgery on my shoulder, that they said would fix the problem and it didnt. Ive been through hell and back with this stupid injury. Oh well guys, thanks for the time.

**The Iron Man** · 02-09-2006, 11:14 AM

Originally Posted by WHOADY4SHOADY

Not to be a dick, but Ive been there done that. Ive even done accupuncture. Not to mention Ive had orthroscopic surgery on my shoulder, that they said would fix the problem and it didnt. Ive been through hell and back with this stupid injury. Oh well guys, thanks for the time.

Well I did not know about the surgery...lol.. You have scar tissue built up in that area..Your best bet is NEUROMUSCULAR THERAPY along with possible unilateral movements for that area such as over head pressing and rows. Next would come pain management with muscle relaxers and such.

NOTE: Once your cut on, your rarely ever the same.

Good luck with that pain.

**WHOADY4SHOADY** · 02-09-2006, 11:52 AM

Thanks for your concern.

**Polska** · 02-09-2006, 12:20 PM

I can't comment on ironman but i've done DC and liked it. I gained an insane amount of strength real fast... guys thought i was juicing when I wasn't

**URMaster** · 02-09-2006, 05:04 PM

Can someon post links to these training regiments? Ive done a quick search on google but found nothing. All right I'm damn lazy, =) can someone help me out?

**Jimmya73** · 02-09-2006, 05:21 PM

try the HIT routine first

DC reccomends trying every possible avenue (training and diet routines) before going onto DC

in muscular development david henry comments on that sort of. he says it is supposed to be a very advanced routine for people with 3-4 years of training under their belts, and it is very hard to do, as you are attempting to best your previous reps or weight from week to week. i get the picture that it is supposed to be like the last plateau breaker, when your musculature is advanced to the point where most methods fail to shock it enough.

it actually kinda reminds me(from what little i have heard of both) of the way swolecat thinks, in terms of sticking to core movements, dumping isolation movements( or at least giving them the proper place) and loads of intensity

**WHOADY4SHOADY** · 02-09-2006, 08:41 PM

UrMaster, the workouts are stickied at the top of the workout forum.

**The Iron Man** · 02-09-2006, 10:37 PM

Originally Posted by Jimmya73

in muscular development david henry comments on that sort of. he says it is supposed to be a very advanced routine for people with 3-4 years of training under their belts, and it is very hard to do, as you are attempting to best your previous reps or weight from week to week. i get the picture that it is supposed to be like the last plateau breaker, when your musculature is advanced to the point where most methods fail to shock it enough.

it actually kinda reminds me(from what little i have heard of both) of the way swolecat thinks, in terms of sticking to core movements, dumping isolation movements( or at least giving them the proper place) and loads of intensity

Theres got to be some form of periodization every three weeks and theres will always be a select few that need isolation exercises to respond. Generally it's those with a weak Chest. They have to add in some form of flyes if declines or inclines arent working. Lunges after squats is another possibility for those with weak legs.

In general one exercises per body part will stimulate the whole muscle sufficienty given you train all 3 subcategories of the type 2 fibers by training in a holostic manner with 3 sets twice per week. That there is the key along with good form and intensity. It's yet to fail anyone who stuck with it.