Thread: shoulders lagg
05-18-2003, 03:20 AM #1
weell guys to be short i am so fucking mad from my shoulders lag everything is groing exept shoulders and shoulders is the most muscle that i should work coz i am ectomorph with ripped shoulders fram i actualy doing this routine:
db press or bb press : 3 sets 10 8 6
lateral raises:3 sets 10 8 6
front raises:3sets 10 8 6
u can flame like u want coz i am a stupid guy with lagging shoulders
05-18-2003, 09:02 AM #2
It could be one of a couple of things
#1 you may be overtraining them .Now with that routine it would not look like you are however it is a possibility(spelling)say if you were doing them after or before shoulder day this would not give them much time to recover .
#2 If you are new to lifting and are unable to left heavy for you shoulders you may want to work them more than just once a week .Because you are lifting light (however light might feel heavy to you at the time)You may not be stimulateing the muscle enough to cause rapid growth .So what you can do if this is the case is to hit your shoulders three time a week and see how that does .If you do this I would not go to failure on all my reps but fall short of failure by a rep or two. and make sure if you go to 3 times a week that you do one of the shoulder workouts on chest day .Also I would take out the front raises because you are hiting the front already with bench .If you are useing dumbbell bench then keep em in. So to sum it all up I would try to hit three times a week maybe mon,wed,fri dont go to failure stay about one or two reps short .Good luck CDOG
05-18-2003, 09:30 AM #3
maybe it is the 1 option coz i am not a new lifter well i don know i do 210lbs press behind the neck i dont know if it is light or heavy
05-18-2003, 10:04 AM #4
Are your shoulders soar? Are you doing them a day before or after chest day?
05-18-2003, 10:15 AM #5
i use to do chest on monday and shoulders on wed but from a month i switched to chest on monday and shoulders on friday and i have been lifting for 19 months i didnt get any sorness in my shoulders
05-18-2003, 11:59 AM #6
I would try doing them three times a week just dont go to total failure .And if you do try to do them 3 times aweek make sure to do one of your shoulder day on your chest day . If you dont want to work them 3 times a week you could always try static holds ,negs, supersets and drop sets .Peace
05-18-2003, 02:36 PM #7
if you are working shoulders more than one major day a week ie shoulder day, and one minor day of week, ie chest day, then you need to split those as far apart as possible, you need to create a new workout split, it sounds like its time if you've been doing the same thing for 19 months, do chest and shoulders on the same day for a while and see what happens, it DOES NOT sound like you are ready for such advanced techniques as training 3 times a week for hypertrophy
05-18-2003, 02:55 PM #8
The two things you SHOULDN'T do are train them 3 times a week and not train them to failure. If your shoulders are lagging that bad maybe you should try to prioritize them and train them 1st in the week, something like:
mon - shoulders/arms
tues - legs
wed - off
thurs - back
fri - chest
I dont know what your split usually looks like, but that should give you a basic idea and of course you can tweak it a bunch of different ways. IMO I would also lose the descending sets, drop the front raises for upright rows, and switch around the order:
I would also incorporate some drop sets.
05-18-2003, 03:23 PM #9
I disagree ..........
I totaly disagree sd11 .3 times a week is a great way to bring up a laging body part and as training the same muscle 3 times a week you would not be able to go to total failure as this would lead to overtraining .So this would answer the two questions you disagree with .http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/hst_index.html This is a site that goes into the type of training for hypertrophy.It will show you that not only can you build mass but you must work the same muscle three time a week and NOT GO TO FAILURE .CDOG
05-18-2003, 07:33 PM #10
seriously dude, this guy is not gonna know how to do hyperspecific training, i can bet he is no where near advanced enough to use it
fitness guy - go with sd11, train them early in the week and let them rest a week, go INTENSE and go to failure, they will grow, do not do more than 3 work sets (heavy) on some sort of shoulder press
05-18-2003, 07:59 PM #11
And just how advanced do you need to be to do HST? I can tell you that it does not matter how long you have been lifting to do HST and thats a fact .I dont really care as to who's advice he goes with but truth is truth and he is able to do HST .Anybody regardless of the leval of training is able to do it .Just ask the guys on this board that have done it .Im not bustin as$ but if your going to inform somebody that they cant do something before they try it you could be the reason for their lack of growth .Maybe HST would be what hes been looking for maybe not the point is its another avenue for him to decide .Peace
05-18-2003, 09:19 PM #12
just do shoulders with chest, all ur presses work ur shoulders anyways
05-18-2003, 09:58 PM #13
cdog: I would like to know if you have any qualifications and also why you see HST as the answer. I understand what I suggested was very basic and general (the information he gave us was very basic and general, there is so much more I would want to know about him and his training before suggesting something set in stone), but I'll still stand by the fact that he shouldn't train his delts 3 times per week nor should he not train them to failure. I'm not only familiar with HST, but HIT, BC, OTS, POF, HD, BFS, BBB, SGT, BPBT, PFT, HS, ST, FAIL, and Periodization. My point in listing all of those is just to show that there are a ton of different training systems and techniques as well. And one might work great for person A but not for person B. I agree with you in saying that it's a decision he has to make, but why do u suggest HST. Do you believe its the be all end all of training systems? Do you use it yourself? How many different systems have you tried? How long have you been training? Do you see any flaws in HST training? The reason I ask so many questions is because a lot of times on these boards I just see people saying this system is the best or that system is the best, but never give a reason why. I was just wondering if you can explain your rationale and not just provide us with a link, I've read all that already. I've been an ACE certified personal trainer for 3 years now and have worked with many people, and just recently became an NSCA CSCS (just a little background on my qualifications).
05-19-2003, 12:14 AM #14
My answer is another avenue I never put anything into stone unlike you with your statements on how you never train your shoulders three times a week and not going to failure .Do I train HST no do I know guys on this board that do and have made great gains in mass yes.As far as your routines that you are familiar with they do nothing for me as I and others on this board are familiar with them as well .I never told fitnessguy that HST is the only way to go simply gave him another avenue .And I still disagree with you statement. How can you tell someone something like (you never should train the same body part 3 times a week ?Thats total bullshlt I have made great gains on doing workouts like that and so have many others .I have also made great gains on HIT . Also the site that I gave was for fitnessguy and not you .I gave this to him so he could do some research himself.And why do I suggest HST because its something that I dont believe he has tryed.And what's all this shlt about how long have I been training and how many systems have I done and do I do it my self .What does any of this have to do with fitnessguy? The truth is this you have told someone that you dont know shlt about to never work the same body part 3 times a week and I simply disagreed and you got your feelings hurt and started posting all of your qualifications .I have a personal trainer and he would never tell somebody not to work the same bodypart 3 times a week .He would give advice but he would never say not to try something that very well maybe the answer that they are looking for .Yet you claim that he should not even try it .You asked me if I beleive that this is a be all and end all of training systems the answers is no I dont and I never said it was simply another avenue. And I never said anything disrespectfull about the routine that you posted for fitnessguy my problem is with your statement that he should not even try something like working the same body part 3 times a week .So As an ace trainer how can you tell him that .Let me ask you a question are there guys that make great gains on HST ?If you are who you say you are then you know that the answer is yes .So why tell fitnessguy that it would not work for him how do you know ?Maybe it will maybe it wont but you dont tell anybody that no it will not work unless you know how that person will do with that program and I know that you cant tell him one way or another on how he would do with HST or any of the others .So wipe your eyes and be a man vs geting your feelings hurt over a disagreement ..........CDOG
Last edited by cdog; 05-19-2003 at 12:19 AM.
05-19-2003, 03:33 PM #15
First off, I am who I say I am if you would like to PM me I'll be happy to give you my name which you can find through the "trainer locator" on both the ACE and NSCA site, also I minored in physiology. For all I know HST might be the answer for him (I personally do not like HST nor do I use it with any of my clients), if you read my response more carefully I said I agree with you its a decision he has to make. I also said that just because something works great for one person it might work horribly for another.My post focused on asking you why you suggested HST? I was hoping for a scientific and sensible explanation, which you obviously didn't and probably are not qualified to give. Also how the hell are you familiar with "my routines"? I didn't list my routine, I listed a bunch of different training systems to make a point that there are endless avenues to choose from (which we seem to agree on) and again asked you why you suggested HST? The reason I asked you so many questions is because I suspect you know very little and are tant amount to a weekend warrior with an opinion (so prove me wrong). What I posted was an extremely simple and general outline just to illustrate my point of prioritization, I wouldn't call it much of a routine. Do I dismiss HST completely? No. Do I suggest HST? No. Can HST work for him? Maybe. Fact is there is no one best training system or frequency. The best program is the one which gives you the best results the most efficiently. Everyone is obviously very different in terms of experience, goals, response to training, recuperative abilities, being enhanced or not. If you or he wants to train their delts or any other bodypart for that matter three times per week, so be it I don't care, but I sure as hell don't suggest it. My personal philsophy (especially for those who aren't chemically enhanced) is to focus on rest, hit it hard and let then let it grow. Fact is training breaks you down and makes you weaker, rest makes you stronger, physiologic improvement only occurs during rest periods. Sure EOD training like in HST routines provides a great deal of rest, but not when you're working the same body parts on every training day with these whole body workouts (I believe whole body workouts are just stupid if you must know). By focusing on rest and proper nutrition and timing following intense training (which places maximum load on the cardiovascular and muscular systems) you are able to improve efficiency of the heart, increase capillaries in the muscles, and increase glycogen stores and mitochondrial enzyme systems within the muscle cells. Now as you rest, these systems build to new and higher levels to compensate for the training you applied. Without sufficient rest regeneration will not occur and plateaus will be all to common. Even worse, if this imbalance continues performance will now not only not improve, but will actually decline. Being in an overtrained state can also persist even after recovery periods. There is a very fine line and it is different for everyone and it takes a lot of time and experience to find, that is why I suggest undertraining. So my philosophy: consistent gradual increases in either training (not my fav), poundages, or intensity, varying training cycles (incorporating periods of higher rep endurance work, for not only confusion, but joint protection as well), and mandatory rest phases. It's common sense that undertraining is far better than overtraining, so thats my philosophy. I keep it simple, design outlines for myself as well as my clients and stick to them. I've been overtrained, if taken on overtrained clients, many people are. I was not arguing with you I was debating and asking why you suggested HST? Now you see I don't like it and you see what my routines are based on, if you want to critique my principles now, feel free, I don't get offended. I have had great success in PL competitions in the past and am nearing my very first BB competition. Point is training is a well planned science, and smart training is the path to growth. I've found what works for me, and I've helped a number of friends and clients. It takes a great deal of time, trial, and knowledge to become very in tune with your own body and its abilities. I wish you, Fitnessguy, and everyone else the best in their training, and finding the system which works best for them. Fitnessguy, you haven't even been training 2 years, there is nothing wrong with starting slow and climbing the ladder slowly. By the same token their is nothing wrong with trying a system like HST, I dont like it, some love it, but I won't suggest it. Either way be sure to keep a log of training, diet, rest, and photos to monitor your progress. It will help a great deal. Good luck in finding what works best for you, research and read and come to an educated decision on what you do and why. Whatever you choose remain consistent and intense and gains will come. CDOG....no need to wipe my eyes and no hard feelings.
Last edited by sd11; 05-19-2003 at 03:37 PM.
05-19-2003, 03:52 PM #16Member
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- Apr 2002
- In The Chocolate Factory
fitnessguy its all trial and error brotha
see what works for you
play around with different variables throw some principals in there
05-19-2003, 06:14 PM #17
Im not going to pick your shlt apart I dont have the time .the bottom line is that a person can make great gains on working a bodypart 3 times a week thats fact .And by not taking the reps to total failure .Again if your a trainer you should know this I know my trainer does and he is one of the best . And I guarentee you that his credentials will surpass anything you have to offer .So the knowledge I recive from him on routines I will pass on to those who ask .Again you said that 2 things you should NEVER do is train the same bodypart three times a week and that not going to failure is also something that should never be done and again I say thats total bullshlt. This is what this whole thing is about in the first place .You can bring in all kinds of other junk to dilute the issue like whats my credentials or Im just a weekend warrior or what ever but lets stick to the issue .You said NEVER train the same thing 3 times a week and Im saying you can have a routine such as this and make gains Ive seen it and have done programs like this in the past my self not HST but close .And what about those on this board who have done this routine and made great progress? Im not going to go into this any longer but as an ACE trainer you should know better than to tell somebody NEVER............CDOG
05-19-2003, 09:07 PM #18
You are very thick headed, in the god damn second sentence in my post I said for all I know HST might be the answer for him. I also said I don't dismiss it (nor do i dismiss any training philosophy with scientific backing), but I don't suggest it. I won't use it and I won't use it with any client I ever take on, I believe that there are far superior ways of training, so I'm giving my opinion to him, which is not to do it. If you read the tiny bit I wrote about my own philosophy you would understand why I don't like hitting the same body part 3 times per week. I didn't dilute the issue I was making a point and I certainly didn't dilute your credentials, because you have none. I AKSED YOU TO SIMPLY EXPLAIN WHY YOU SUGGEST HST AND YOU STILL HAVEN'T. I'll go out on a limb and assume that either you heard about HST from your trainer, or a thread on some board, or some website and just go around suggesting it and don't even know wtf you're talking about, like I said before prove me wrong. I also made it clear in my last two posts that some people might see great results while others may see horrible results. That applies to any training system, everyone is different there is no right or best way to train. You have to make educated decisions on what is right for you, HST is not for me. Finally, please don't tell me what I should know as a trainer or compare my credentials with your trainer, I wasn't asking about his, I wanted to know yours. For all I know his credentials may surpass mine, I really don't give a shit I've used training to pay my way through 4 years of college and hopefully now four years of law school, it's a way to make cash and help people I'm not trying to be the next guru. As for him being one of the best, I didn't know Charles Glass (or anyone of that caliber) moved to Oregon. So either explain yourself and your reasons behind your suggestion or just let it lay, frankly I don't care either way. Thats what the whole thing is about, not why I say don't do it, but why you say to give it a shot with such conviction.
05-19-2003, 09:37 PM #19
Where is the conviction other than me wanting to stick to the issue .Again you said never work a bodypart 3 times a week and that not going to failure was a mistake .DID YOU NOT? so as the ACE trainer that you are prove your statement.Iam not a trainer but you claim to be so tell us with scientific backing as to why you can not work the same muscle three times a week and remember I suggested that he not go to failure if he was to do a routine such as working the same bodypart 3 times a week .Lets see what all your so called education has to say against this theory of HST .And again this has nothing to do with HST this has to do with you saying that you can not train the same muscle group three time a week and that you have to go to failure .Prove your point to all of us .I trust you will be able to .Again lets stay to the issue I have no conviction of any routine but I do when it come's to a trainer telling someone not to do something such as working the same body part 3 times a week .
05-19-2003, 09:43 PM #20
This is the issue!
[QUOTE]Originally posted by sd11
[B]The two things you SHOULDN'T do are train them 3 times a week and not train them to failure.
If you are familiar with HST you would know that you do work the same bodypart 3 times a week and you do not go to failure on your reps.
So back up your statement with your knowledge about why you should not do this .Where is the evidence and please dont be so evasive .Again I dont give a shlt about HST .I just want the trainer to stick to the issue of the above quote.Thats all and I will let it go .I know what you said in your other reply about how HST could work after I pined you down .But I want to know about the above statement .You are the teacher so teach .
Last edited by cdog; 05-19-2003 at 09:50 PM.
05-19-2003, 10:10 PM #21
Fuck man did you read my post about overtraining and recuperative abilities, that should be explanation enough. This is like a game for 5 year olds, I ask you a question and instead of answering you turn it around and ask me to provide a counter. I have no point to prove, I said in my opinion I don't like HST for myself or my clients, all I ever asked for was your explanation as to why you suggested it and I believe I asked you that probably 10 times and in my second post on this thread. You've yet to answer and instead of this turning into an educational debate (which you seem to be incapable of) you've made this into a childish arguement. I'm done wasting my time with this shit, if you can post an explanation like you should have 5 posts ago then I'll pick the flaws I see in it apart, but I doubt you understand HST or any training system for that matter. So stop arguing until you explain, I explained my philosophy in very simple terms and it's easy to see how it doesn't match up with the principles of HST.
FINAL THOUGHT: YOU KNOW SHIT, YOU ARE UNEDUCATED, YOU PAY SWOLECAT FOR DIET ADVICE, YOU PAY TO HAVE SOMEONE TRAIN YOU. HAVE YOU EVER DONE ANY RESEARCH ON YOUR OWN? HAVE YOU EVER HAD ANY SUCCESS ON YOUR OWN? DO YOU HAVE ANY QUALIFICATIONS? DO YOU KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT TRAINING/NUTRITION AT ALL? OR DO YOU JUST SPEAK THE WORDS AND PRINCIPLES OF OTHERS?
05-19-2003, 10:21 PM #22
OMG I didn't read that: "pinned me down"
WTF are you talking about, yeah I said any system COULD work. Working in a lumber yard lifting shit all day could work too, but I also don't suggest that as a form of training. I obviously feel and have stated that I think there are superior forms of training, and that is why I don't suggest HST or it's principles, and again if you read the basic principles that I use in my routine you will see the difference.
05-19-2003, 11:23 PM #23
It's like this yes I can afford the best as owning my company for 10yrs I have made money .I dont like and nor will I spend wasted time and effort on things that are not effective so what .Have I ever had any success on my own yes very much so .Do I have qualifications in training no do I need them to give good solid advice no.I will leave you with this I know that you got upset with me disagreeing with you and Im sorry you got upset .As far as me being uneducated you are correct I droped out in school to work and I cant say that Iam totaly sorry for that because I have built a very profitable company over the last 10 yrs .I wish you well at school if you are going for Law you have a long road ahead but in the end it will be worth it as I have friends who are attorneys I know the sacrifice they have made .Again I wish you the best peace...........CDOG
Last edited by cdog; 05-19-2003 at 11:31 PM.
05-20-2003, 06:25 AM #24Junior Member
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- Mar 2003
Working my shoulders once a week works for me, and I've shown good growth in this area. Since everyone knows that muscles grow when you rest, I don't see how working them three times a week would give you ample recovery time, unless you were juicing and can recover faster, ore you were on some kind of "special" training regimen. I too think that you should prioritze a lacking muscle group. I did this with my genetically inferior friggin calves, and they finally started to grow.
IMO I'd say work them once a week, but go heavy. I work it to where I can barely get 6 or 7 by myself for 3 sets.
Just my opinion
05-20-2003, 06:34 AM #25Junior Member
- Join Date
- Mar 2003
How many posts does it take to finish a petty argument. Calm the hell down fellas!
05-20-2003, 03:15 PM #26Originally posted by temperoath
IMO I'd say work them once a week, but go heavy. I work it to where I can barely get 6 or 7 by myself for 3 sets.
Just my opinion
05-20-2003, 03:38 PM #27
i think i should delete the post
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