Back is selectively lagging - plz advise

**Cupid** · 11-13-2016, 11:39 PM

Hi,

So i seem to have an issue with vertical back movements improving(i.e. all kinds of pull downs).

Albeit, I am cutting right now and in a caloric deficit.

However, for the last 2 months, ALL of my horizontal and other back movements have been improving steadily (Bent over barbell rows, one arm dumbbell rows, straight arm lat press down, seated cable rows, dumbbell pull overs). Every single workout I have some improvement. Even my biceps, traps, and rear delts have all been steadily getting stronger.

But NONE of my vertical back movements have improved over the last 2 months.

Does anyone have any idea of what is the cause of this?

**ghettoboyd** · 11-14-2016, 06:22 AM

you must not be doing them correctly or with too much weight have you ever tried to lighten the load and focus on form and the mind to muscle connection?...I see guys every day stacking on too much weight and jerking the weight around using mostly biceps....also they sit straight up when pulling down...its actually ok to lean back slightly concentrating on pulling the shoulder blades together...remember though this is bbing so its not always about the weight to induce hypertrophy, form counts...

**Marsoc** · 11-14-2016, 10:23 AM

Originally Posted by Cupid

Hi,

So i seem to have an issue with vertical back movements improving(i.e. all kinds of pull downs).

Albeit, I am cutting right now and in a caloric deficit.

However, for the last 2 months, ALL of my horizontal and other back movements have been improving steadily (Bent over barbell rows, one arm dumbbell rows, straight arm lat press down, seated cable rows, dumbbell pull overs). Every single workout I have some improvement. Even my biceps, traps, and rear delts have all been steadily getting stronger.

But NONE of my vertical back movements have improved over the last 2 months.

Does anyone have any idea of what is the cause of this?

Try real pull ups. Wide grip(palms away) . Also chin ups (palms facing you)
There is nothing like pulling your body weight up against gravity. I've done this when I could remembered. I heard that you should give 1 month to do pull-ups whenever u can. So like as many as u can morning and then at night. Ur pull ups max reps should go up double by the end of the month.
Mine went from Fukien pathetic 1-2reps since I was overweight and not strong and out of shape from drugs. To doing about 15 weighing 220lbs healthy weight. In a matter of a month or two ..it gets to the point where U felt like U have a jet pack on thrusting ur body up lol. It's great

I do pull-ups and super set those right into lat pull downs. Same with chin ups super set into lower lat elbows to the side rows ..or do weighted pull ups. U can't be aggrandize of the pull up bar. It is your friend. Nothing compares to it. Not even lat pull downs

**Marsoc** · 11-14-2016, 10:26 AM

And yeah leaning back a few degrees on the lat pull down will hit more ur mid traps and back opposed to mainly your upper outer lats from the natural pullup/pull down position..

My question always had been ..what does behind the neck pulldowns or pull ups do. What do they hit different besides just a different angle. .and seems bad for shoulders as well. Besides that yeah. Like mentioned above

**600@50** · 11-15-2016, 08:53 AM

Use a thumbless grip when doing your pulldowns. When you grip the bar with your thumb around the bar you automatically engage the biceps. With a thumbless grip you use your hand as hook. Consciously think of pulling with your elbows and not your hands. You'll need to drop the weight initially but you should find you get much more lat stimulation this way.

**Mr.BB** · 11-15-2016, 09:11 AM

Originally Posted by Cupid

Hi,

So i seem to have an issue with vertical back movements improving(i.e. all kinds of pull downs).

Albeit, I am cutting right now and in a caloric deficit.

However, for the last 2 months, ALL of my horizontal and other back movements have been improving steadily (Bent over barbell rows, one arm dumbbell rows, straight arm lat press down, seated cable rows, dumbbell pull overs). Every single workout I have some improvement. Even my biceps, traps, and rear delts have all been steadily getting stronger.

But NONE of my vertical back movements have improved over the last 2 months.

Does anyone have any idea of what is the cause of this?

How long have you been training?

Cause its not normal to increase lifts in every workouts, unless you are a begginer of course.

Maybe you already reached a good potential with your back and now its harder to get gains, while the rest of body is still lagging.

**NACH3** · 11-15-2016, 11:17 AM

One thing that comes to mind is the movements your doing are mostly rows which will build thickness, not width...

Pull-ups/pulldowns(wide grip CG medium grip / palms out/& in) for width...and using your hands as hooks(like 600/50 mentioned) will engage the lats more... remember you must arch your lower back to even engage the lats correctly(a lil simultaneous pop of the chest at the peak of a contraction helps too)

**Cupid** · 11-15-2016, 11:23 AM

Hi,

Thx for the replies.
I am not a 100% beginner, I have been working out for over a year. However, I would consider myself a beginner in the sense of only a couple months ago did I really start to do things correctly (form, workout consistency, tracking etc.).
I DO NOT ego lift whatsoever. A while back I dropped the weight on almost every lift and focused on fixing form and slowly moving up.
I am 170lbs, approx 12% BF.

My back lifts 2 months ago were (all for 12 rep max):
Reverse Grip Pull Down - 115
Bent Over Barbell Rows - 125
One Arm Dumbell Rows - 55
Dumbell Pull Overs - 45
Seated Cable Rows - 115

My numbers now:
Reverse Grip Pull Down - 115
Bent Over Barbell Rows - 155
One Arm Dumbell Rows - 75
Dumbell Pull Overs - 55
Seated Cable Rows - 130

I don't sit straight, I slightly lean to the back, pop my chest up, tighten core, retract scapula. I already use thumbless grip and for the most part barely engage my biceps. I just focus on pulling my elbows to my sides and think of my hands as just hooks. I can't think of what else it might be.

**Cupid** · 11-15-2016, 11:27 AM

Originally Posted by NACH3

One thing that comes to mind is the movements your doing are mostly rows which will build thickness, not width...

Pull-ups/pulldowns(wide grip CG medium grip / palms out/& in) for width...and using your hands as hooks(like 600/50 mentioned) will engage the lats more... remember you must arch your lower back to even engage the lats correctly(a lil simultaneous pop of the chest at the peak of a contraction helps too)

What you said....
I have been thinking that this might be it actually....maybe just my overall workouts don't have enough vertical movements as part of my routine and too much row movement.

Also...I spoke with a friend who has some experience....his opinion is that because I am cutting and in caloric deficit I shouldn't be making strength gain anyways....and that the gains I have been making on rows are mostly a result of CNS adaptation rather than actual strength gains. What do you guys think?

**ghettoboyd** · 11-15-2016, 11:55 AM

Originally Posted by Cupid

What you said....
I have been thinking that this might be it actually....maybe just my overall workouts don't have enough vertical movements as part of my routine and too much row movement.

Also...I spoke with a friend who has some experience....his opinion is that because I am cutting and in caloric deficit I shouldn't be making strength gain anyways....and that the gains I have been making on rows are mostly a result of CNS adaptation rather than actual strength gains. What do you guys think?

your friend could be right as I know when I start to loose weight in a cut my strength definitely suffers...like someone else said you cant make personal bests every week especially during a cut.... I wouldn't sweat it too much...good luck...

**Marsoc** · 11-15-2016, 07:14 PM

Originally Posted by 600@50

Use a thumbless grip when doing your pulldowns. When you grip the bar with your thumb around the bar you automatically engage the biceps. With a thumbless grip you use your hand as hook. Consciously think of pulling with your elbows and not your hands. You'll need to drop the weight initially but you should find you get much more lat stimulation this way.

I usually keep my thumb off the bar for lots of things when I can

**Marsoc** · 11-15-2016, 07:18 PM

Originally Posted by Cupid

Hi,

Thx for the replies.
I am not a 100% beginner, I have been working out for over a year. However, I would consider myself a beginner in the sense of only a couple months ago did I really start to do things correctly (form, workout consistency, tracking etc.).
I DO NOT ego lift whatsoever. A while back I dropped the weight on almost every lift and focused on fixing form and slowly moving up.
I am 170lbs, approx 12% BF.

My back lifts 2 months ago were (all for 12 rep max):
Reverse Grip Pull Down - 115
Bent Over Barbell Rows - 125
One Arm Dumbell Rows - 55
Dumbell Pull Overs - 45
Seated Cable Rows - 115

My numbers now:
Reverse Grip Pull Down - 115
Bent Over Barbell Rows - 155
One Arm Dumbell Rows - 75
Dumbell Pull Overs - 55
Seated Cable Rows - 130

I don't sit straight, I slightly lean to the back, pop my chest up, tighten core, retract scapula. I already use thumbless grip and for the most part barely engage my biceps. I just focus on pulling my elbows to my sides and think of my hands as just hooks. I can't think of what else it might be.

Try using the lat pull down machine for ur pullovers rather a dumbell and flat bench this way u can get a full range of motion. Start with arms stretched above head. Shoulder width grip and pull over all the way till the bar hits ur bellybutton area and then squeeze it against u. Dumbell pull overs only have a limited range of motion

**NACH3** · 11-15-2016, 08:36 PM

Originally Posted by Cupid

What you said....
I have been thinking that this might be it actually....maybe just my overall workouts don't have enough vertical movements as part of my routine and too much row movement.

Also...I spoke with a friend who has some experience....his opinion is that because I am cutting and in caloric deficit I shouldn't be making strength gain anyways....and that the gains I have been making on rows are mostly a result of CNS adaptation rather than actual strength gains. What do you guys think?

TBH - look at how your built and go with your strengths! Make them stand out and your other BPs wil look more proportioned making you look bigger...

I like thickness movements for back b/c not many people have thick backs... some really wide but your shoulders/clavicles must be wide to have good width.... I don't... so I focus on thickness(rows upon rows builds strength too) and your Lars will have no other option to go out...

**Euroholic** · 11-17-2016, 06:05 AM

deadlifts(rackpulls) barbell rows and t bar rows are a must for your back. Focus on the compound movements

**Marsoc** · 11-17-2016, 11:21 AM

Yeah u get most growth from compound movements..I.e. Multiple muscles used to perform the move

Try upping ur intensity also. I.e HIT , super sets drop sets, pre post fatigue. Etc etc

**NACH3** · 11-17-2016, 11:34 AM

Originally Posted by Euroholic

deadlifts(rackpulls) barbell rows and t bar rows are a must for your back. Focus on the compound movements

These are definitely the bread and butter for your back(major thickness movements) and a must imho!

I also like doing trap work with Back!

Intensity is also key... people rest way to much try cutting it to 30-45sec between working sets -

**Euroholic** · 11-17-2016, 03:20 PM

Originally Posted by NACH3

These are definitely the bread and butter for your back(major thickness movements) and a must imho!

I also like doing trap work with Back!

Intensity is also key... people rest way to much try cutting it to 30-45sec between working sets -

Agree. And the biggest thing is weight on the bar. Unless you want to be a powerlifter. Lift as heavy as you can go but still able to do clean reps.

**NACH3** · 11-17-2016, 04:10 PM

Originally Posted by Euroholic

Agree. And the biggest thing is weight on the bar. Unless you want to be a powerlifter. Lift as heavy as you can go but still able to do clean reps.

Agreed! Form is key and you HAVE to lift heavy to grow! Progressive overload works very well for myself(and most who implement high intensity training does so as well)! Lifting heavy is a must!

**Cupid** · 11-18-2016, 09:53 AM

Originally Posted by Euroholic

deadlifts(rackpulls) barbell rows and t bar rows are a must for your back. Focus on the compound movements

I'm not sure how this thread changed direction so quickly lol.

I already said that my barbell row/t bar, deadlifts etc are all going up no problem haha.

The issue was with vertical movements.

But i believe I already got my answer. Thanks anyways guys!!