Equal Opportunity Employers - Law Enforcement

[RoNNy THe BuLL]

What's up guys,

I was having this discussion with my brother today and thought I would post this up. The local Police force has always bragged about how they are an 'equal opportunity employer', which means they don't discriminate on any basis as long as you can pass the testing based on your standards and what some may consider "disadvantages"...the one I would like to discuss is physical stature.

The lights were out at a major intersection and the Female Officer who was directing traffic was 4'11". Now this got me thinking. If I was in dire need of backup and she showed up, I would have to pull out my gun and start shooting.

Picture this...

You approach a vehicle for a routine traffic stop, there's three large individuals who subsequently come out and start to physically attack you and go for your weapons. You manage to call for backup and the first on scene is this 4'11" Female Officer. What would you do? Personally, I would say "**** this" and pull out my Pepper Spray, which would depending on the circumstances, may or may not lead to my hand gun being drawn.

If I were a Police Officer, I wouldn't feel safe having someone of such a small stature as my backup, regardless of Sex. I remember back in the day the Police Department standards were you had to be 5'10" and atleast 165lbs. Now you just have to be of proportionate weight to your height, which I think is utter bull****.

Equal opportunity is great, but not for every profession as the safety of either yourself, other Officers or the community in general may be jeapordized for "equal opportunitists".

What do you think?

[LORDBLiTZ]

Agreed. I wouldn't want anyone that small backing my ass up, regardless of sex.

[RoNNy THe BuLL]

**** right. Officer Safety should be the number one issue. Especially with the way things are going nowadays...even in Canada.

[RoNNy THe BuLL]

Bump this before I go to bed. I'm interested in the opinions.

[chicamahomico]

Minus the badge, most cops are a joke anyway. The odds of them actually being on the scene of a violent crime in progress is quite low. I can't imagine a cop ever doing anything for me or my family except maybe for investigating a relatively unimportant crime (break in, vehicle theft, etc) and any reasonably intelligent person of any stature is capable of doing that. A big portion of their job is pushing a pencil.

[RoNNy THe BuLL]

True Chicamahomico, but at the same time those dangers are present and frequent but aren't publicized as much as we'd like to think for obvious reasons.

[DBarcelo]

For a lot of people, in the heat of the moment, they just see a uniform. One more uniform may make a person think twice. When we're calm and rational we can see she's small and unasuming, but in the heat of the moment, we tend to see people as being a lot bigger than what they are.

#2, if I was a 4'11 woman going to back someone up, I wouldn't be going in there with my fists balled up ready to fight, I'd be going in there gun in hand. Once you point a gun at someone, they don't normally care if you're 6'5 and 350lbs or if you're 4'11 and 90lbs, they just see that gun pointed at them.

#3, That little woman can do things that a man can't do and she can do things that a larger woman can't do. You wouldn't think a little woman like that may be a cop, so she can do undercover work and not even be suspected.

#4, some of the badest chicks I've come accross have been the little ones. They may not be able to take a grown man one on one, but they can hold their own against another woman. What if some psycho naked chick is the one going for your gun? You really don't want to touch her because you're a guy, then you may be hoping that little chick is the one that shows up first.

My main point, is everyone has their use and their strengths.

[RoNNy THe BuLL]

For a lot of people, in the heat of the moment, they just see a uniform. One more uniform may make a person think twice. When we're calm and rational we can see she's small and unasuming, but in the heat of the moment, we tend to see people as being a lot bigger than what they are.

#2, if I was a 4'11 woman going to back someone up, I wouldn't be going in there with my fists balled up ready to fight, I'd be going in there gun in hand. Once you point a gun at someone, they don't normally care if you're 6'5 and 350lbs or if you're 4'11 and 90lbs, they just see that gun pointed at them.

#3, That little woman can do things that a man can't do and she can do things that a larger woman can't do. You wouldn't think a little woman like that may be a cop, so she can do undercover work and not even be suspected.

#4, some of the badest chicks I've come accross have been the little ones. They may not be able to take a grown man one on one, but they can hold their own against another woman. What if some psycho naked chick is the one going for your gun? You really don't want to touch her because you're a guy, then you may be hoping that little chick is the one that shows up first.

My main point, is everyone has their use and their strengths.

#1) You have a point with the uniform, but at such a small stature, the 'effect' wouldn't be as intimidating
#2) Drawing your gun should be the ultimate last resort
#3) You got a good point with the undercover stuff. But everyone starts on the road.
#4) I know what you're saying and and totally understand, but if there's a pyscho chick going for my gun, you're **** right I'm going to knock her the **** out. It's either her or me that's going home that night and I'm going to make sure it's me.

[Commando_Barbi]

Ronny -

I'm 5'1, 120ish and guess what.... I'm a cop.

Ask my 6'2, 225+ partner who can hold her own. Man is still sporting bruises from trying to get free from my restraint holds.

I also outshot all but one person in my academy, took the taser and when I got pepper sprayed....came out fighting.

Don't count out women because of their size or perceived lack of strength. If you looked at me....you wouldn't even begin to guess how strong I am. I know how to protect myself.....and the bad guy is going to have to work pretty hard to get my weapon.

Many times a contact will be more compliant with a female officer than a male officer. Many times we are more able to talk them down and get them in cuffs.

There is one male officer in my dept that is the same height as me...and not far from my weight. NO one messes with him ... because he will kick the chit out of them.

Obviously, my small size and lack of strenght in comparrison to a man means that I have to work harder to increase my skills in other areas. I have to work smarter not harder. My verbal skills have to be right up there and I weight train, take martial arts and grappling classes to keep myself and my partner safe.

On the flip side...there are some big, burly officers that have zero skills in "verbal judo" and their officer safety sucks. Forget if they have to chase someone because they are so out of shape they get a block down the street and can't breath.

Maybe I am biased.....but I know.....when the time comes....I will back my partner, I will get in the fight...and I will use whatever tool is available and appropriate..be it my pepper spray, taser, asp, fists, feet, or need be....my gun.

[RoNNy THe BuLL]

That's good to hear Commando Barbie. And I don't mean it in any way towards Females, as I mentioned in my initial post.

However, not everyone is like you. The reason it caught my attention is because there was an incident not too long ago in my area where a Female Officer of smaller stature let her ego and Uniform get in the way of her doing her job safely, which landed her in the hospital for something very, very stupid.

A shoplifter at a local mall was caught by mall security, the Female Officer responded and even though it was a known "violent offender", she informed the Mall Security that she would be okay alone in an office with him. Mall Security did as they were told and left the two alone. Keeping in mind that the Shoplifter was handcuffed, he managed to knock the Female Officer unconcious, break her jaw, a few ribs and her tibia. One of the Mall Security guards broke the door down and was of large size and managed to restrain the Shoplifter while they waited for other Officers, and the Ambulance, to arrive.

That's what bothered me. I know that it's in no way universal, as you clearly proved with your case, but you have to admit that it does play a role. In her case, her stupidity along with her ego and small stature resulted in Officer Safety being non-existant.

[RoNNy THe BuLL]

By the way, check your PM's Commando Barbie.

[RoNNy THe BuLL]

By the way, check your PM's Commando Barbie.

[Commando_Barbi]

I didn't take it personally .

There are men that let their egos get in the way and end up in fights they don't need to be in too. So...it goes both ways.

I know I am not your everyday female .

[Commando_Barbi]

I did...there's nothing there.

[Commando_Barbi]

Well...that wasn't very smart of her. Sometimes you end up alone...with no back up. That's the way it happens. I chose to go with the PD because back up is never far away. With the Sheriff dept....you aren't that lucky. I know my limitations. I haven't been put to the test as a LEO yet...but I have on other occasions .

Having a suspect handcuffed doesn't make you safe...sounds like she let her guard down.

That's good to hear Commando Barbie. And I don't mean it in any way towards Females, as I mentioned in my initial post.

However, not everyone is like you. The reason it caught my attention is because there was an incident not too long ago in my area where a Female Officer of smaller stature let her ego and Uniform get in the way of her doing her job safely, which landed her in the hospital for something very, very stupid.

A shoplifter at a local mall was caught by mall security, the Female Officer responded and even though it was a known "violent offender", she informed the Mall Security that she would be okay alone in an office with him. Mall Security did as they were told and left the two alone. Keeping in mind that the Shoplifter was handcuffed, he managed to knock the Female Officer unconcious, break her jaw, a few ribs and her tibia. One of the Mall Security guards broke the door down and was of large size and managed to restrain the Shoplifter while they waited for other Officers, and the Ambulance, to arrive.

That's what bothered me. I know that it's in no way universal, as you clearly proved with your case, but you have to admit that it does play a role. In her case, her stupidity along with her ego and small stature resulted in Officer Safety being non-existant.

[Commando_Barbi]

I love you too

Minus the badge, most cops are a joke anyway. The odds of them actually being on the scene of a violent crime in progress is quite low. I can't imagine a cop ever doing anything for me or my family except maybe for investigating a relatively unimportant crime (break in, vehicle theft, etc) and any reasonably intelligent person of any stature is capable of doing that. A big portion of their job is pushing a pencil.

[chicamahomico]

If everyone had an attitude like yours, the world would be a better place.

...
Don't count out women because of their size or perceived lack of strength. If you looked at me....you wouldn't even begin to guess how strong I am. I know how to protect myself.....and the bad guy is going to have to work pretty hard to get my weapon.

.....Obviously, my small size and lack of strenght in comparrison to a man means that I have to work harder to increase my skills in other areas. I have to work smarter not harder. My verbal skills have to be right up there and I weight train, take martial arts and grappling classes to keep myself and my partner safe.

...there are some big, burly officers that have zero skills in "verbal judo" and their officer safety sucks. Forget if they have to chase someone because they are so out of shape they get a block down the street and can't breath.

[RoNNy THe BuLL]

Now check your PM's CB!

[Commando_Barbi]

If everyone had an attitude like yours, the world would be a better place.

I'm the one and only

But thanks.

[nickrizz]

in the fireman test they let women carry a dummy ajustable to their weight. so if you are in a burning building you better hope you have a diuretic so she can carry you out

[3Vandoo]

I love throwing 4'11" copette in orbit

[Commando_Barbi]

Van.....I love you too!!! Brat.

Thank god I'm not 4'11

[spywizard]

how would you like to find yourself unconcious in a basement, with your house on fire...??

I don't know about you... but i want the fireman to be capable of carrying my 200+ lb ass up the stars...

at 300+ lbs.... i don't think 4'11 is gonna cut it........

[nickrizz]

i just dont understand how they can do what i described above. a fire department is going to get sued when someone who had to carry a 120lb person out the door goes into a fire and cant carry someone out that it 150lbs

[Juggernaut]

how would you like to find yourself unconcious in a basement, with your house on fire...??

I don't know about you... but i want the fireman to be capable of carrying my 200+ lb ass up the stars...

at 300+ lbs.... i don't think 4'11 is gonna cut it........

That's why firemen/fiewomen carry axes.....she could chop you up and get you out....one piece at a time. hahahaha

I understand were you're coming from Ronny but hopefully the people overseeing placement have the chance to see each person in action and make the right choice as to if the person is capable of doing the job.

[RoNNy THe BuLL]

I'm a believer in "Equal Opportunity" but not stupidity as examplified in the Fire Department testing standards as proportioned to your weight. That's just dumb.

[Quake]

Commando Barbi, I'm sure I read in another thread that you were in the navy??

As for the topic, looks can be decieving, I've worked the door, and no matter how big the people involved are you always go there in numbers. Not that you haven't pointed out that the person in question is back up, but you just don't know what your letting yourself in for, size is nothing to go by whether it be police or criminal (either end of the stick). Try watching some of those 80's chinese martial arts films shaolin monks etc, they may look like a string of pi.ss to look at, but you've got your work cut out fighting one of them!

[Juggernaut]

Commando Barbi, I'm sure I read in another thread that you were in the navy??

As for the topic, looks can be decieving, I've worked the door, and no matter how big the people involved are you always go there in numbers. Not that you haven't pointed out that the person in question is back up, but you just don't know what your letting yourself in for, size is nothing to go by whether it be police or criminal (either end of the stick). Try watching some of those 80's chinese martial arts films shaolin monks etc, they may look like a string of pi.ss to look at, but you've got your work cut out fighting one of them!

I'm pretty sure anyone could handle those Shaolin Monks! Come on, those dudes move in slow motion.....especially when their flying through the air.....more than enough time to get out of the way or reload. hahaha

I can understnd the concern but really....everyone has the right to any job they want....that's the reason America is what it is right? If they meet whatever requirements are set by whatever governing body that oversees such....then so be it. Besides, there are plenty of large people with less backbone than a smaller one. A group of midgets with guns are just as scary as a group of 6' men with guns................allbeit your knee caps would fair better with the taller guys shooting at you.

[Commando_Barbi]

Yes Quake I sure am. I'm a very busy lady Work is a temporary subsitute for Sex

[GQ-Bouncer]

I don't want to be the bearer(?) of bad news here - but...

that 4'11 female is safe ONLY because she's hiding behind her badge and weapons, and of course the fact that society trains us agains violence towards women, make no mistake, most men with could EASILY with force subdue a female

What ronny is talking about is the *Intimidation* value of a policeman, here's a quick rundown without getting technical about the barbarian days. An example in the criminal world, the ideal boss has to be "tough" which is signified by fight experience and competence, in drug-culture if a man steals from you or disrespects you, the police is not an option, which inevitably leads to physical punishment by the "boss" and/or his workers underneath him, now with all this violence, the stereotypical "boss" would be a big man, ussually over 200 pounds/over 6'0 and often covered with gang-signature tattoos

the same violent image makes people suspect that all Sheriff's/Nightclub Bouncers and Military personal (esp Army) would be enourmous bodybuilding gentleman, because psychologically society trains us to feel that if someone is "big" than they know how to fight

Because being a correctional or police officer, signifies that you have to deal with violence, the public eye would much rather see a larger more inimidating person in that uniform that a 4'11 women

Now, if that "boss" were to be a 4'11 women, well, not too many people would have alot of respect for her - it's strange but it makes sense

(btw, Yes i know that women can ussually calm-emotions much better than men can, and women with the proper training can out-wrestle alot of people, i'm just giving you my humble opinion and theorys)

[decadbal]

i knew a couple of female cops where i worked who werent big, but could easily put any guy on this board down. size only helps out when your tryin to intimidate, it dont actually matter, bc when it all comes down to the nitty gritty, the weapon is what makes ppl obey. no one respects the police today, not bc the size has gotten smaller, but society as a hole has gotten ****tier. ppl often badmouth police, and i for one do it to, but having been one i understand that what you want when u call for backup is someone who has the attitude to back you up, not the size.. i know plenty of guys who are 6ft5 and are pussies and i know lots of ppl who arnt big at all and could make bitchs of alot of so called big guys or tuff guys.. its all attitude..

[Red Ketchup]

i just dont understand how they can do what i described above. a fire department is going to get sued when someone who had to carry a 120lb person out the door goes into a fire and cant carry someone out that it 150lbs

I am 500% AGAINST double or multiple standards to get "quotas" of minorities in a profession. The job doesn't magically become easier because you're a girl or you're some minority needed to fill a quota.

I weigh 225 lbs, when I go into a fire, I don't care if my partner is male, female, gay, straight, black, white or even wears a turban... but whoever he or she is, they'd better be able to haul my äss out if the shït hits the fan.

And that means whoever this person is, I want him or her to have the SAME or even better qualifications than me. It's *MY* äss on the line!

In my years in the FD (and even now that I teach at the academy) I've met many women who could haul äss, but I've also met some I would NEVER go into a fire with. It's the same with guys (though it seems less prevalent with the whole macho FD stuff with guys). It's a question of trust.

Red

[Red Ketchup]

bc when it all comes down to the nitty gritty, the weapon is what makes ppl obey. no one respects the police today,

Hmmm no offence bro, but if it's like that where your from it's pretty frightning.

Over here a cop pulling his weapon is the exception, not the rule, it's the absolute last resort. It always freaks me out watching American shows like COPS where police pull out their gun for a routine traffic stop. A cop who pulls his weapon here for something so benign would lose his job almost instantly.

I've got a few cop friends and acquaintances at the city, provincial and federal level here and most of them pull out their sidearm less than 2-3 times a year. One of the guys who was a FF with us was also a plainclothes detective in the cops inter agency Bikers Squad and he pulled his weapon less than 10 times in his entire carreer. Was it not for mandatory range practice, his gun would rust in it's holster

I find the cultural difference rather interesting considering in Canada there are more firearms PER CAPITA than in the US! I guess it's a difference in perception.

Red