Killing in nature

**marka** · 01-31-2005, 04:25 PM

Does anyone ever trip on all the really gruesome killing that goes on in nature - lions killing baby cheetahs, cheetahs killing gazelles, monkeys killing other monkeys, eagles dropping turtles from 1,000 ft hights, just quite a bit of violience in nature......some of the stuff is pretty cruel.......why is it like that? I mean, why is it designed like that? is there a meaning to this? Do we just overrate the importance of death? are we so afraid of dying, that in reality dying should not be feared? I dunno, just tripin here.

:spudnikgh:

**Mesomorphyl** · 01-31-2005, 04:47 PM

tree hugger...

**OGPackin** · 01-31-2005, 04:48 PM

Lay off the acid bro...

OG

**1morerep** · 01-31-2005, 09:00 PM

log onto a porn site immediately!

**Hot-Rox** · 01-31-2005, 09:27 PM

It because man struggles against his animal nature. Because of intelligence the animal world does not have man has the ability to envision a utopian world. A world where the different parts work together synergistically - together creating a great deal more than any individual could achieve on their own. However, although man struggles against his animal nature he loses more often than he wins. Thus the wars, killing, the similarities he shares with the natural world. His intelligence is his curse of knowing he is campable of so much more.

**marka** · 01-31-2005, 10:16 PM

Originally Posted by Hot-Rox

It because man struggles against his animal nature. Because of intelligence the animal world does not have man has the ability to envision a utopian world. A world where the different parts work together synergistically - together creating a great deal more than any individual could achieve on their own. However, although man struggles against his animal nature he loses more often than he wins. Thus the wars, killing, the similarities he shares with the natural world. His intelligence is his curse of knowing he is campable of so much more.

Thats interesting. Good reply.

***Cycleon*** · 01-31-2005, 10:39 PM

perhaps what is more interesting is that it would seem that in the origional "garden of eden" it was not like this for animals as well - thus the fallen state has affected all of us - ie, all of this violence is a result of a fallen state not God's ideal level of existence - its also why I believe that animals do have souls per se but without a spirit do not have the ability to generally overcome their nature - that is one of the reasons that we have in essence free will - humans are cabable of acting outside their nature

**palme** · 02-01-2005, 04:30 AM

Humans and cheetahs are the only animals who have sex cause it feels good, not just for re-producing.

How cool is that?

**cjp85** · 02-01-2005, 05:23 AM

Originally Posted by palme

Humans and cheetahs are the only animals who have sex cause it feels good, not just for re-producing.

How cool is that?

Thats weird, what about dogs? When they hop on someones leg and start beatin' it up, do they think they're gonna have a spawn?

LORDBLiTZ · 02-01-2005, 05:39 AM

awesome!

Originally Posted by CYCLEON

perhaps what is more interesting is that it would seem that in the origional "garden of eden" it was not like this for animals as well - thus the fallen state has affected all of us - ie, all of this violence is a result of a fallen state not God's ideal level of existence - its also why I believe that animals do have souls per se but without a spirit do not have the ability to generally overcome their nature - that is one of the reasons that we have in essence free will - humans are cabable of acting outside their nature

**HeavyHitter** · 02-01-2005, 08:52 AM

Originally Posted by Hot-Rox

It because man struggles against his animal nature. Because of intelligence the animal world does not have man has the ability to envision a utopian world. A world where the different parts work together synergistically - together creating a great deal more than any individual could achieve on their own. However, although man struggles against his animal nature he loses more often than he wins. Thus the wars, killing, the similarities he shares with the natural world. His intelligence is his curse of knowing he is campable of so much more.

agreed, humans fear death b/c we were born w/ intelligence/common sense and of course EMOTION! If you want eat some shrooms, take some acid, snort some coke and heroin and you'l eliminate all those things and feel just like an animal!!

**O.fO.shO** · 02-01-2005, 10:02 AM

Originally Posted by CYCLEON

perhaps what is more interesting is that it would seem that in the origional "garden of eden" it was not like this for animals as well - thus the fallen state has affected all of us - ie, all of this violence is a result of a fallen state not God's ideal level of existence - its also why I believe that animals do have souls per se but without a spirit do not have the ability to generally overcome their nature - that is one of the reasons that we have in essence free will - humans are cabable of acting outside their nature

I've thought about this also . But what would a lion eat in the garden of eden?

bananna's?

***Cycleon*** · 02-01-2005, 01:48 PM

Originally Posted by O.fO.shO

I've thought about this also . But what would a lion eat in the garden of eden?

bananna's?

all animals can be herbivores -

CS Lewis made an interesting hypothesis - namely that animals eating other animals was "the fall" of advanced animals - if I remember it correctly, its been years since I read it. I would have to think about how this would iteract with the evolutionary development process - which I believe is the way God chose to develop us btw, though not accurately depicted -

**Red Ketchup** · 02-01-2005, 01:55 PM

Originally Posted by CYCLEON

all animals can be herbivores -
-

Ouch, I don't want to imagine the overcrowding (or diseases) caused by natures predators not doing their job! Imagine if there were no carnivores to cull the populations of herbivores and also thin each other out? Ouch.

I think the food chain is there for a reason...

Red

**9000rpm** · 02-01-2005, 01:58 PM

All living things are in the cycle of life and death. All things in nature are naturally trying to reach equilibrium. And that equilibrium is death. I don't know if you know this or not, but you too will die someday. Could be a normal death, or it could be a violent death. If all you ever do is think about which it will be, you will never accomplish anything with your life.

**Red Ketchup** · 02-01-2005, 02:03 PM

Originally Posted by marka

Does anyone ever trip on all the really gruesome killing that goes on in nature -

Nope, I don't trip 'cause thats normal... It's nature doing what it's supposed... surviving.

What DOES make me trip is seeing the evil than men can do and DOES do...

Seeing atrocities and genocides like what the Nazis did in WW2, like Serbia, Rwanda... and then there are other bright moments like the spanish inquisition where people took pleasure in torturing and killing folks in the name of god...

THAT stuff makes me trip... because as men, WE KNOW BETTER... but we still act like feral animals...

Red

**Mesomorphyl** · 02-01-2005, 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by CYCLEON

all animals can be herbivores -

CS Lewis made an interesting hypothesis - namely that animals eating other animals was "the fall" of advanced animals - if I remember it correctly, its been years since I read it. I would have to think about how this would iteract with the evolutionary development process - which I believe is the way God chose to develop us btw, though not accurately depicted -

You eating some chicken or steak tonight?

**FCECC2** · 02-01-2005, 03:12 PM

Originally Posted by Mesomorphyl

You eating some chicken or steak tonight?

thats exactly wat i was thinking!!

**palme** · 02-02-2005, 02:58 AM

Originally Posted by CYCLEON

all animals can be herbivores -

CS Lewis made an interesting hypothesis - namely that animals eating other animals was "the fall" of advanced animals - if I remember it correctly, its been years since I read it. I would have to think about how this would iteract with the evolutionary development process - which I believe is the way God chose to develop us btw, though not accurately depicted -

No, to much carbs will kill a lion. They do get an amount of carbs from their killed prays but they wouldnt be able to survive cheewing grass. Its a fact that cant be denied.

**IronFreakX** · 02-02-2005, 07:32 AM

we r animals living animals lives but in a diff wut do we do in life?eat **** sleep **** but in diff ways we think which is our biggest problem yet biggest pleasure the human race is doomed to failure if u think bout it sum it up and make some conclusions u will se im rite we r doomed to failure self destruction

**O.fO.shO** · 02-02-2005, 11:45 AM

Originally Posted by CYCLEON

all animals can be herbivores -

CS Lewis made an interesting hypothesis - namely that animals eating other animals was "the fall" of advanced animals - if I remember it correctly, its been years since I read it. I would have to think about how this would iteract with the evolutionary development process - which I believe is the way God chose to develop us btw, though not accurately depicted -

thats interesting , im not convienced either way as far as animals not eating animals at one time . Why would meat eaters have the teeth and be able to digest raw meat if they wernt originaly supposed to?

I dont buy the evolution theroy at all . I believe in god , and i believe animals and humans can adapt...but evolve no .

If i remember correctly.....biblically humans dint eat meat until after the great flood . Been a while , i could be wrong there.

**Psychotron** · 02-02-2005, 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by O.fO.shO

thats interesting , im not convienced either way as far as animals not eating animals at one time . Why would meat eaters have the teeth and be able to digest raw meat if they wernt originaly supposed to?

I dont buy the evolution theroy at all . I believe in god , and i believe animals and humans can adapt...but evolve no .

If i remember correctly.....biblically humans dint eat meat until after the great flood . Been a while , i could be wrong there.

I can understand you wanting to follow what the bible teaches you, being a good person, but how can you believe in genesis?

Evolution is basically and almost a scientific fact. Not only that but Dinosaurs essentially disprove genesis. Don't take this as me trying to bash religion, myself am not a follower, but do respect what they all teach you.

**FCECC2** · 02-02-2005, 12:00 PM

Originally Posted by O.fO.shO

thats interesting , im not convienced either way as far as animals not eating animals at one time . Why would meat eaters have the teeth and be able to digest raw meat if they wernt originaly supposed to?

I dont buy the evolution theroy at all . I believe in god , and i believe animals and humans can adapt...but evolve no .

If i remember correctly.....biblically humans dint eat meat until after the great flood . Been a while , i could be wrong there.

no disrespect but im surprise that theres still people that follow the bible theory about the origin of life in 2005...

***Cycleon*** · 02-02-2005, 12:24 PM

first of all - the animals in genesis time were not necessarily the ones that we have today - nor are we sure that they were the full range by the time of Noah either - meaning you can have a single doglike creature and depending upon how far back those events were with environmental adaptation and breeding alone you can get everthing from a mastiff, to a wolf to a dachund - to say nothing of the evolutionary process. Similarly, a lion today could not be a herbivore but whatever catlike creatures preceeded the lion, however far back in the chain could have been. Again, the idea of non carnivorous was an idle aside from perhaps a misforgoten passage of cs lewis. I would have to go back and see the context he put it in to think how it would fit the evolutionary process.

Also, while I am a firm Christian who believes in the inerrancy of the bible, including Genesis - I also do believe in an evolutionary process, abeit one guided by a Creator toward a purpose and a certain design. Evolution as a theory that is taught in schools today is NOT scientific fact and nowhere close to it - I cannot tell you how many times those books have been revised as science makes a new discovery - the bible on the other hand is still the same. At the same time, God makes things in some fashion or another and man was "formed from the dust" as it were and Eve from Adam - the main difference in these beings from any other before them is clearly made afterward when God breathed the breath of life into them, ie. they have a spirit, which is a uniquely human trait. But in any case, I do not see where an evolutionary process of some sort is in anyway incompatable with the outline in Genesis. Now granted, many in the field almost worship the theory as a religion and seem to think that it proves the non existence of God - but that is foolish, since it does no such thing. Evolution is such a fragile process that all God would have to do is slightly intervene at a few points along the tree to make sure he got where He wanted it all to go, yet in many ways offer free will even to the creatures He made.

**marka** · 02-02-2005, 12:27 PM

Originally Posted by CYCLEON

first of all - the animals in genesis time were not necessarily the ones that we have today - nor are we sure that they were the full range by the time of Noah either - meaning you can have a single doglike creature and depending upon how far back those events were with environmental adaptation and breeding alone you can get everthing from a mastiff, to a wolf to a dachund - to say nothing of the evolutionary process.

Also, while I am a firm Christian who believes in the inerrancy of the bible, including Genesis - I also do believe in an evolutionary process, abeit one guided by a Creator toward a purpose and a certain design. Evolution as a theory that is taught in schools today is NOT scientific fact and nowhere close to it - I cannot tell you how many times those books have been revised as science makes a new discovery - the bible on the other hand is still the same. At the same time, God makes things in some fashion or another and man was "formed from the dust" as it were and Eve from Adam - the main difference in these beings from any other before them is clearly made afterward when God breathed the breath of life into them, ie. they have a spirit, which is a uniquely human trait. But in any case, I do not see where an evolutionary process of some sort is in anyway incompatable with the outline in Genesis. Now granted, many in the field almost worship the theory as a religion and seem to think that it proves the non existence of God - but that is foolish, since it does no such thing. Evolution is such a fragile process that all God would have to do is slightly intervene at a few points along the tree to make sure he got where He wanted it all to go, yet in many ways offer free will even to the creatures He made.

so true about science frequently changing.

**Mesomorphyl** · 02-02-2005, 12:37 PM

I do think eating meat is fine. But on biblical accuracy I think GOD did talk with people but had to simplify... Point one to cerimoniously wash your hands before a meal, do you really think god could have said there are germs on your hands? The dust that created adam, do you think god could have said atomic particles called atoms and anyone would have understood? But nowhere do I see do not eat meat...

***Cycleon*** · 02-02-2005, 01:19 PM

Oh - dont get me wrong - I eat PLENTY of meat - and God made it clear that he gave the whole garden for them for dominion and as food - interestingly tho - it does show that the first animal killing mentioned in the bible, God did it to cover their nakedness after they sinned and it was the end of the garden and when the world became a more hostile place.

**Psychotron** · 02-02-2005, 02:59 PM

i guess you cant just have quotes.

Let me try to make crystal clear what is established beyond reasonable doubt, and what needs further study, about evolution. Evolution as a process that has always gone on in the history of the earth can be doubted only by those who are ignorant of the evidence or are resistant to evidence, owing to emotional blocks or to plain bigotry. By contrast, the mechanisms that bring evolution about certainly need study and clarification. There are no alternatives to evolution as history that can withstand critical examination. Yet we are constantly learning new and important facts about evolutionary mechanisms.

It is time for students of the evolutionary process, especially those who have been misquoted and used by the creationists, to state clearly that evolution is a fact, not theory, and that what is at issue within biology are questions of details of the process and the relative importance of different mechanisms of evolution. It is a fact that the earth with liquid water, is more than 3.6 billion years old. It is a fact that cellular life has been around for at least half of that period and that organized multicellular life is at least 800 million years old. It is a fact that major life forms now on earth were not at all represented in the past. There were no birds or mammals 250 million years ago. It is a fact that major life forms of the past are no longer living. There used to be dinosaurs and Pithecanthropus, and there are none now. It is a fact that all living forms come from previous living forms. Therefore, all present forms of life arose from ancestral forms that were different. Birds arose from nonbirds and humans from nonhumans. No person who pretends to any understanding of the natural world can deny these facts any more than she or he can deny that the earth is round, rotates on its axis, and revolves around the sun.

he honest scientist, like the philosopher, will tell you that nothing whatever can be or has been proved with fully 100% certainty, not even that you or I exist, nor anyone except himself, since he might be dreaming the whole thing. Thus there is no sharp line between speculation, hypothesis, theory, principle, and fact, but only a difference along a sliding scale, in the degree of probability of the idea. When we say a thing is a fact, then, we only mean that its probability is an extremely high one: so high that we are not bothered by doubt about it and are ready to act accordingly. Now in this use of the term fact, the only proper one, evolution is a fact. For the evidence in favor of it is as voluminous, diverse, and convincing as in the case of any other well established fact of science concerning the existence of things that cannot be directly seen, such as atoms, neutrons, or solar gravitation ....
So enormous, ramifying, and consistent has the evidence for evolution become that if anyone could now disprove it, I should have my conception of the orderliness of the universe so shaken as to lead me to doubt even my own existence. If you like, then, I will grant you that in an absolute sense evolution is not a fact, or rather, that it is no more a fact than that you are hearing or reading these words.