new study on yahoo

[stewie]

what do you think of the new study about steroids on yahoo.com news section

[NotSmall]

Make it easy for us lazy bastards and post a link why dontcha?

[IronFreakX]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060811/...ic_steroids_dc

[stewie]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060811/...ic_steroids_dc

thank you

[NotSmall]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060811/...ic_steroids_dc

Thanks!

Doesn't sound great does it?

It's ironic 'cause I got into working out because of a conversation with my father while we watched a program on cancer, he told me that as far as he knew there had never been anyone in his family diagnosed with cancer, instead all the men in the family tended to die from one form of heart disease or another, being 320lbs at the time, drinking and smoking heavily, this came as a big wake up call - I quit smoking, dramatically reduced my alcohol intake and started going to the gym, just cardio to start with and then adding weight training. I never thought that steroids were "good for me" per se but it is ironic to find out that I have gone full circle and found something else to upset my heart with!
Oh well, at least I'll die in better shape!

[Kale]

Thanks!

Doesn't sound great does it?

It's ironic 'cause I got into working out because of a conversation with my father while we watched a program on cancer, he told me that as far as he knew there had never been anyone in his family diagnosed with cancer, instead all the men in the family tended to die from one form of heart disease or another, being 320lbs at the time, drinking and smoking heavily, this came as a big wake up call - I quit smoking, dramatically reduced my alcohol intake and started going to the gym, just cardio to start with and then adding weight training. I never thought that steroids were "good for me" per se but it is ironic to find out that I have gone full circle and found something else to upset my heart with!
Oh well, at least I'll die in better shape!

Doesnt say much about the actual study and what it consisted of though.

[NotSmall]

Doesnt say much about the actual study and what it consisted of though.

Is that comment directed at the article or my post?

[Kale]

Is that comment directed at the article or my post?

The article !! It says fvck all.

[NotSmall]

The article !! It says fvck all.

LMAO initially I thought your comment was directed at my post, I had a whole paragraph typed defending my post then I realised "Ahhhh, he meant the article!"

[Kale]

LMAO initially I thought your comment was directed at my post, I had a whole paragraph typed defending my post then I realised "Ahhhh, he meant the article!"

Dickhead !!!

[NotSmall]

Dickhead !!!

Now I KNOW that was directed at me!

[Tren Bull]

oh ok, 3 users died suddenly during the study



man, fu_k all this ignorant anti steroid sentiment, and fu_k anyone that agrees with this crap

[NotSmall]

oh ok, 3 users died suddenly during the study



man, fu_k all this ignorant anti steroid sentiment, and fu_k anyone that agrees with this crap

Deep breaths Tren, deep breaths:

Breathe in the good.......breathe out the bad.......Breathe in the good.......breathe out the bad.......Breathe in the good.......breathe out the bad.......Breathe in the good.......breathe out the bad.......

[spencer]

Make it easy for us lazy bastards and post a link why dontcha?

lmfao i know yeah c'mon

[Kärnfysikern]

well it is true that steroids to increase homocysteine

Ebenbichler CF, Kaser S, Bodner J, Gander R, Lechleitner M, Herold M, Patsch JR.
Universitatsklinik fur Innere Medizin, Universitat Innsbruck, Anichstrasse 35, 6010, Innsbruck, Austria

Background: Hyperhomocysteinemia has been accepted as an independent risk factor for atherosclerosis and atherothrombosis. In recent years, several reports have appeared in the literature linking the use of anabolic steroids with acute vascular events in bodybuilders. In this study, we investigated whether hyperhomocysteinemia could contribute to the high vascular risk in bodybuilders taking anabolic steroids. Methods and results: Twenty-three bodybuilders in different phases of their training cycle and six control athletes participated in our study. Anthropomorphic measures displayed a higher body mass index for bodybuilders in the competition phase than for bodybuilders in the work-out and build-up phases, and for control athletes. Homocysteine levels were 8.7+/-1.6 micromol/l (mean+/-S.D.) in control athletes, 8.5+/-2.8 micromol/l in work-out phase bodybuilders, and 8.3+/-1.5 micromol/l in competition phase bodybuilders, but 11.9+/-3.1 micromol/l in build-up phase bodybuilders (P<0.05 for build-up phase bodybuilders vs. control athletes, work-out phase bodybuilders, and competition phase bodybuilders, respectively). Vitamin B12 and folate levels did not differ significantly between the four groups. Conclusion: Our study shows that intake of anabolic steroids, as used typically by bodybuilders in the build-up phase, induces acute hyperhomocysteinemia and is likely to initiate an additional, potentially atherothrombotic mechanism in this group of athletes.

PMID: 11173010 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]

But steroids decrease Lp(a) thats another risk factor for cardiovascular disease.

Anyway eating plenty of b vitamins lowers homocysteine so that just another thing that shows how crucial proper vitamin intake is. I wrote a thing here on this board about lowering homocysteine once.

Just take
5-10mg of folic acid
300-600mcg of vitamin B12
300-500mg of vitamin B6
and you should be safe.

[NotSmall]

well it is true that steroids to increase homocysteine



But steroids decrease Lp(a) thats another risk factor for cardiovascular disease.

Anyway eating plenty of b vitamins lowers homocysteine so that just another thing that shows how crucial proper vitamin intake is. I wrote a thing here on this board about lowering homocysteine once.

Just take
5-10mg of folic acid
300-600mcg of vitamin B12
300-500mg of vitamin B6
and you should be safe.

Woohoo! Thanks Johan

The old ticker is safe once again!

[Kärnfysikern]

Woohoo! Thanks Johan

The old ticker is safe once again!

here is the thing I wrote about vitamin supplements and cardiovascular health. Im not entirely comfterable with everything in this post anymore. I would like to read more and update it. Some of the stuff is pretty unkosher.

The Juiceheads guide to cardiovascular health part 1

I am writing this article because in my opinion there is nothing more important as keeping our health/cardiovascular system in good shape. Especially for us chemically enhanced. If you **** up your liver it can still in most cases heal itself, if you **** up your kidneys you can survive and live a decently normal life. But if you **** up your heart you are indeed ****ed.
Many of us can walk around for years thinking we are in tip top shape and all of a sudden you are floored, grasping your chest moments from death or permanent debilitation of a stroke or from a heart attack .Only because you failed to keep cholesterol and other risk factors at bay.

Here I’m going to explain how to make sure the above scenario won’t happen to you. Prevention by healthy naturals means (in opposition of crap drugs like lipitor and other statins).

Vitamin C and Lysin / Proline

I begin with these two substances because they are the most important. They also happen to be the most controversial and most doctors wouldn’t agree with the things I write. But feel free to check my references at the end and make up your own mind. Mine is already set.

Linus Pauling (twice Nobel price receiver for chemistry and peace, the “father” of orthomolecular medicine) and Matthias Rath in 1990 went public with a hypothesis that lp(a) is a surrogate for ascorbate (vitamin c).(1) They also believed that almost all cardiovascular diseases can be cured with proper amounts of ascorbate along with lysine. They noticed that in humans and other animals that can not produce ascorbate a strange form of cholesterol is found that no other animals have. This cholesterol lp(a) is shown to be the main cause of atherosclerosis3. The arteries are constantly compressed and expanded. It’s like stepping on a garden hose a couple of hundred thousand times every hour. This can cause small fractures and lesions in the arteries and it’s those lesions that are the beginning of atherosclerosis. To ensure the arteries integrity vitamin c is crucial. It makes the arteries more flexible and durable. With enough vitamin c those kinds of lesions simply do not occur. But unfortunaly most humans simply do not get enough vitamin c. The RDI is laughable, the amount needed is several grams every day. The body is clever however and have found a surrogate for vitamin c. That is lp(a). Whenever a lesion occurs it gets repaired with lp(a) but lp(a) is far from an ideal replacement. After the lesion is repaired more lp(a) will bind to the site ultimately leading to atherosclerotic plaques. This is how lysine gets into the picture. lp(a) has a very strong binding affinity for lysine. If more lysine is present in the blood stream the lp(a) wont bind to the arterial walls. If enough vitamin c is present arterial integrity will be preserved and lp(a) won’t be needed. So by supplementing with vitamin c and lysine one makes sure the arteries is in good condition and that lp(a) is bound and prevented from forming plaque.
No big human studies have been done on this but it has been proven that vitamin c deficiency leads to atherosclerosis in guinea pigs(one of the few animals except monkeys and man that doesn’t produce ascorbic acid)(2) . The inability for the medical community to examine this further is most probably explain by the fact that there is no gain at all for the big pharm companies in researching this since both lysine and vitamin c is cheap. It would actually harm there income since lipitor and other statins is an immensely huge business. Most doctors also have no clue about the benefits of vitamin c and other vitamins in mega dosages.

The dosage Pauling and Rath suggest is 5-18grams of ascorbic acid each day along with 3-6 grams of lysine. Lp(a) has been found to have an even greater binding affinity for proline so including 0.5-2grams of proline has become a later addition to pauling's recommendations.
The good thing for us bodybuilder is that both lysine and proline is abundant in ordinary whey protein powder. Every gram of whey protein has 101mg of lysine and 65mg of proline. So consuming 50-100 grams of protein a day from whey would give you 5-10grams of lysine and 3-6,5grams of proline. I don’t think adding either lysine or proline as a pure amino acid supplement would yield any better effect.
To sum it up I recommend

10-20grams of vitamin c(ascorbic acid or sodium ascorbate, no other form of vitamin c)
5grams of lysine
3-5grams of proline

B vitamins

There is another big risk factor in cardiovascular diseases often neglected. Homocysteine. Homocysteine is formed when the amino acid methionin is broken down. Usually vitamin b6, b12 and folic acid breaks down the Homocysteine into harmless substances but most people just don’t have enough of those three vitamins leading to dangerously high Homocysteine values. It seems logical to conclude that we bodybuilders would be a risk group for cardiovascular diseases caused by Homocysteine simply because of the amounts of protein we consume. We probably get 5-10 times as much methionin in our diet compared to a regular man. So it must be extra important for us to supplement with enough of those 3 vitamins.
Homocysteine is linked to several heart conditions(3) and has a reverse correlation to HDL(the good cholesterol)(4) . Lowering Homocysteine raises HDL. Homocysteine also stimulates oxidation of LDL(the bad cholesterol and its even worse then its oxidised), stimulates cell growth on the inside of arteries and stimulate the binding of oxidised cholesterol to fibrine.
Supplementing with vitamin b6, b12 and folic acid lowers Homocysteine to safe levels(5)
A good dosage to use is
5-10mg of folic acid
300-600mcg of vitamin B12
300-500mg of vitamin B6
That is roughly twice the recommended dosage to treat high levels of Homocysteine. Vitamin B12 and folic acid has no known toxicity so using higher dosages is not a problem. Vitamin B6 can however cause some problems with dosages exceeding 500mg for long time periods. It’s rare though and the sides are usually seen when using 2-5grams/Day for several months.

Niacin (vitamin B3)

Niacin has been used to lower cholesterol for a long time and it’s very effective at doing so. In the form of niacinamide it has been shown to decrease cholesterol by up to 70% and triglycerides by up to 90%(6) . In another study with niacin a dosage of 1,5grams/day increased HDL with 20% and significantly lowered triglycerides in both those with normal and abnormal cholesterol values.(7)
Niacin does however have some sideffects. The most common is the niacin “flush”. The skin becomes red and terribly itchy. It isn’t dangerous and is caused by niacin expanding the small blood vessels in the body. This is only uncomfterable and will go away after a while. By slowly increasing the dosage it can be avoided or at least minimised. So don’t just jump on 1,5grams instantly but start with 100mg/Day and increase with 100mg every other day or third day. Niacin can also have some bad effects on the liver but it’s almost only with the time release formulas and not with regular niacin. It can also increase acid production in the stomach so if you have an ulcer be careful.

I suggest using 500mg/Day and going up to 1,5grams/day if your HDL is low

In part 2 I will include info about fatty acids, phytoestrogens and flavinoids.



1 Hypothesis: Lipoprotein(a) is a surrogate for ascorbate
Proc. Nati. Acad. Sci. USA
Vol. 87, pp. 6204-6207, August 1990
Chemistry
2 Immunological evidence for the accumulation of lipoprotein(a) in the atherosclerotic lesion of the hypoascorbemic guinea pig.
Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 1990 Dec;87(23):9388-90.
3 [[Homocysteine, lipoprotein (a): risk factors for coronary heart disease]
Ann Biol Clin (Paris). 2002 Sep-Oct;60(5):549-57. French.
Plasma Homocysteine predicts progression of atherosclerosis.
Atherosclerosis. 2005 Jul;181(1):159-65.
4 Relationship between homocysteine and cardiovascular risk factors in obesity. Nieren und hochdruckkrankheiten, 1994;23(10):511-512
5 association between plasma homocysteine concentrations and extracranial carotid artery stenosis, the new England journal of medicine February 2 1995;332(5):328-329
6 Atherosclerosis, 18:9 1973
7 Effectiveness of low-dose crystalline nicotinic acid in men with low high-density lipoprotein cholesterol levels.
Arch Intern Med. 1996 May 27;156(10):1081-8.

[Kärnfysikern]

Just a note. These where my cholesterol vaules when I followed the above. Not sure what they "normaly" are since it was my first bloodwork done. But I dont think I have ever seen better ratios so it must work atleast.

Total cholesterol 2.6Mmol/L (100mg/dl)
Triglycerides 0.28Mmol/L (24.85mg/dl)
HDL 1.7Mmol/L (65,4mg/dl)
LDL 0.8Mmol/L (30.7mg/dl)

[rake922]

Does anybody know if the death of wrestler Davey Boy Smith in 2002 (The British Bulldog) is consistent with the article?

He was only 39 and died of a heart attack.
Autopsy revealed that trenbolone acetate was in his system.

[Pooks]

I cant despute the study..
and I believe what they say is true.

From what i've seen over the years, alot of Party/bodybuilders and party goin wrestler passed away... usually when they mix cocaine and etc which strains on their heart.. so yah something to definetly be aware of when using steroids.. I believe in Personal choice, and everyone should have the choice to either go with taking the risk or not take the risk.. and articles like this and other studies are awesome making us more educated.

I give props to the author of the article for seemingly keeping it unbiased and without propaganda

[Pooks]

well it is true that steroids to increase homocysteine



But steroids decrease Lp(a) thats another risk factor for cardiovascular disease.

Anyway eating plenty of b vitamins lowers homocysteine so that just another thing that shows how crucial proper vitamin intake is. I wrote a thing here on this board about lowering homocysteine once.

Just take
5-10mg of folic acid
300-600mcg of vitamin B12
300-500mg of vitamin B6
and you should be safe.

Johan what about drinking down RED BULLZ and other ENERGY/VItamin b type drinks?

[rake922]

Does anybody know if the death of wrestler Davey Boy Smith in 2002 (The British Bulldog) is consistent with the article?

He was only 39 and died of a heart attack.
Autopsy revealed that trenbolone acetate was in his system.

fyi, classic thread about his death http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...ish+bulldog%22

[Kärnfysikern]

Johan what about drinking down RED BULLZ and other ENERGY/VItamin b type drinks?

I have no clue what they contain but its probably way to little. Id say to get those dosages you need to supplement with those specific vitamins. Not even a multi b vitamin supplement usualy contains nearly enough.

[Tren Bull]

Deep breaths Tren, deep breaths:

Breathe in the good.......breathe out the bad.......Breathe in the good.......breathe out the bad.......Breathe in the good.......breathe out the bad.......Breathe in the good.......breathe out the bad.......

haha, i was kinda buzzed off long island iced teas, and cheap malt liquor when i wrote that. but i still find it irritating that everyone is so opinionated about steroids, when most of them know only what the govt wants them to know about it

[G-1000]

there is not enugh info provied.