Sooners04 v. Grappler13 (Legality of Searches Incident to Arrest)

[Grappler13]

IF YOU ORDER OR POSSESS ANY AAS EVER, YOU MUST READ THIS IN ITS ENTIRETY. IT COULD SAVE YOU 10,000S OD THOUSANDS AND YEARS IN JAIL. IT'S WELL WORTH THE TEN MINUTES.

I started the thread below a few months ago and an esteemed member of this board, who is also a police officer. We engaged in a heated but friendly debate regarding my interpretations of a legal event named "Search incident to lawful arrest." Sooners04 and I disagree as you will see from reading the first post below:

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=234144

First of all, I practise law and Sooners04 enforces the law. These are two different practice areas and our goals as professionals will necessarily differ and Sooners04 is sworn to uphold the law and I am sworn to force the state and its representatives to prove its case within the confines of the Consitution and applicable state codes (The US Constitution and federal law trump state law either through the Supremacy Clause or by a legislative intent to do so but that is besides the point. Sooners04 and I disagree and I'll be willing to bet that he attands court more in a wek than I do in a year. That being said, I am an atty and regardless of repitition of a particular action by the police or other enforcement branch, repitition of unConstitutional behaviour does not make it legal. This is not an attack on Sooners04 as he has been gracious in our back and forths (except when he questioned my really being an atty

The following is an easy to read posting that is well footnoted and I encourage everyone to read it: It can be found at:

http://www.acgov.org/da/pov/documents/sita.htm

which allows easier searching a review of the footnoting which is of paramount importance as a statement made can be limited to particular circumstances by the case law which is discussed in depth in the footnotes.

Sooners04: I still think that I am right in my interpretation of the Search incident to Lawful Arrest and look forward to a lively discussion.

BETTER READ AT THE LINK ABOVE SO FOOTNOTES ARE EASY TO LINK TO (unless someone can tell me how to associate a hyper link in side of a post).

[daem]

While interesting, this belongs in the lounge.

[Grappler13]

While interesting, this belongs in the lounge.

Since the threads deal with the legality of possession of AAS and your US Consitutional rights, I thought it more of a Educational thread. Lounge is for of topic threads and potentially going to jail for possession of AAS would seem to me quite educational with regard to steroids. JMHO.

[daem]

Since the threads deal with the legality of possession of AAS and your US Consitutional rights, I thought it more of a Educational thread. Lounge is for of topic threads and potentially going to jail for possession of AAS would seem to me quite educational with regard to steroids. JMHO.

I'm just busting your balls, I read everything and think it is pertinent. I'd have no problem if you changed the title to be more intuitive for those who might otherwise read if they knew what was inside!

[Grappler13]

I'm just busting your balls, I read everything and think it is pertinent. I'd have no problem if you changed the title to be more intuitive for those who might otherwise read if they knew what was inside!

Done!

[Carlos_E]

Moved to the lounge

[Grappler13]

Where are you Sooners04? Hope to "see" you today. I truly am interested in what we've been writing about. I feel I have the law on my side but you embody the law. There is definately a conflic here and you, doing your duty and me doing mine, really opens up a fascinating debate and perchace either a disparity of interpretation which would give rise to a Constitutional review or DA's, our men in Blue, and the bar, not to mention the judges, are all confused about the limits of their power.

[biglouie250]

i read the whole thread and while i agree whole heartedly with you grappler what an officer does in practice is something totally different. i have always told people dont agree to be searched ever. they can think im hiding something but im not going to make there job easy. that being said, i was pulled over for a speeder asked to get out of my car and when i did one of the officers stuck his head in my passenger side window and used his flashlight in the back seat looking for something. that in one sense is searching my car, had he found "probable cause" to search me further what am i supposed to do? of course id whine and moan and file a complaint but that wont do anything. im not going to spend $4,000 on a lawyer to prove a point and police unions are too strong that that officer wouldnt lose their job anyway if i won a case of harrasment. they do have a sense of invincibility that lends them to bend the rules in their favor. unless of course they pull you over, being a lawyer you could do much more then the average person. thegodfather also had some real good points in there.

[Grappler13]

i read the whole thread and while i agree whole heartedly with you grappler what an officer does in practice is something totally different. i have always told people dont agree to be searched ever. they can think im hiding something but im not going to make there job easy. that being said, i was pulled over for a speeder asked to get out of my car and when i did one of the officers stuck his head in my passenger side window and used his flashlight in the back seat looking for something. that in one sense is searching my car, had he found "probable cause" to search me further what am i supposed to do? of course id whine and moan and file a complaint but that wont do anything. im not going to spend $4,000 on a lawyer to prove a point and police unions are too strong that that officer wouldnt lose their job anyway if i won a case of harrasment. they do have a sense of invincibility that lends them to bend the rules in their favor. unless of course they pull you over, being a lawyer you could do much more then the average person. thegodfather also had some real good points in there.

An officer is allowed to view the interior of the car witha flashlight so don;t have any BS in sight and he may search as far as he reasonably believes you may have a weapon hidden that you could reach. If you are out of the car then you probably cannot reach something in your glove box. Also, an officerf may subject youto a Terry Frisk which allows for a patdown for weapons and any contraband he finds on you will probably be admissable even though he's looking for a weapon, and finds a vial. I don't know how a vial could be a dangerous weapon but that is the law. Never consent toa search of your vehicle.

[Grappler13]

I'm bumping because this is important. WHen Sooner04 gets here, we will hopefully get an inside look at the enforcement side of the equation (i.e. real life arrests and the circumstances revolving around them). When we come to the obvious conclusion that the branches of gov and the atty's who defend the indicted, then maybe we should form a PAC to force the gov. to reevaluate its stance on AAS possession.

To me, personal freedom in the US should extend to the far reaches of expansion until I pose a threat or perpetrate a harm on another. Drug laws are completely out of order when viewed rationally. We have a serial underclass and their masters that exist solely because of the illegality of drugs (AAS included). Meth sucks, Coke sucks, etc......... but the reasons (such as the "fact" that black men were more disposed to rape white women whilst under the influence of marijuana is not a recognized reason for its continued illegality. Accordingly, AAS use and the anecdotal harms that are associated with their use has been grossly exagerated to the point where AAS users are subject to imprisonment, future difficulties in finding employment, social stigma for being a felon....the list goes on. Serious AAS users are probably the most body conscious people alive and we're terrified to publicly proclaim and defend this because of our fear of going to jail. Today, if you are caught with AAS, you are f@#$%ed. You may not get to go to jail or the like, but if you cannot afford a competent atty (and we're talking 1000s and 1000s of legal fees, then 1) you have to become a rat (do you have the contacts to be a valuable rat?), or serve ome jail time as a felon. Not pretty.

[Grappler13]

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