WHere did that afterlife and soul bullshit start?

[sonar1234]

I keep on ready stuff from people and NDE, and yet i talk to people that had an NDE and they tell me that they never saw a light or anything else described by the ones in read on the internet.

Where did all this start from?, to give the human hope of survival after the body dies?

I mean life is worth living if you make it what you want, it really is painful at some point and one hell of a roller coaster ride.

I used to beleive in a life after physical death but i am kind of losing my faith in all of this

[Snrf]

I believe in something, because I've had experiences that tell me there is more to life than just the physical.

Ie when my dad died a teacher came and told me to report to the headmasters office, which was nothing new (I was always in trouble) but I immediately thought "oh shit, dads dead"

or when my granddad was in hospital for surgery the phone rang and before I picked it up I knew he was dead.

Or when I had a dream a couple years ago that my new puppy would die, my car get stolen and then something worse happen....2 weeks later my puppy was run over, 2 weeks after that my car was stolen and 3 weeks after that I was in prison.

So if you ask me there's definitely more than just the physical world we inhabit....

[Psychotron]

It is all just to make up for the fact that the human mind cand handle the concept of non-existing. That is where afterlife and the hope for god comes into play, no one believes in god, the human mind wont let that happen either, you can only hope.

Religion on the other hand serves another purpose. Why do most people become religous? Usually because they need something to turn to when things are at there worst, it is just a back to lean against. It serves no purpose.

My .02

[*Narkissos*]

Because you don't believe in something doesn't give any of your the right to call it bullshit.

[sonar1234]

Because you don't believe in something doesn't give any of your the right to call it bullshit.

Sorry for coming on so negative i didnt mean in anyway to offend anyone, its just that 2006 been so hard on me father passed away, cat that i am a bit pissed off at life

[mavsluva]

I HIGHLY encourage you to check out the message that I will share this up coming Monday (12/18/06). For those of you that don't know what I'm talking about, as of last week, I have elected to share my Sunday church teachings with this board on the following Monday.

The theme of my message this up coming Monday is, "How Does Your "Scale" Read?". I think you'll find it most educational and entertaining.

[prncezzml]

Some of the things that happen in life, you just HAVE to think, some Higher Power made it happen. My boyfriend is the evolutionist, not really big into spiritual things and happenings, he has a biology degree and believes there is an explanation for everything. But after we had our daughter, even he says he thinks she is literally an angel from Heaven and having a child is so complex and intense that some Heavenly being has to be part of it. That's just my .02 because I had my doubts about soul, afterlife, God things like that, but now I just have a different perspective. Everyone can believe whatever they want, even if it isn't real. If you don't believe, that's your choice too. I believe in guardian angels as part of the afterlife though.

[big L 17]

I HIGHLY encourage you to check out the message that I will share this up coming Monday (12/18/06). For those of you that don't know what I'm talking about, as of last week, I have elected to share my Sunday church teachings with this board on the following Monday.

The theme of my message this up coming Monday is, "How Does Your "Scale" Read?". I think you'll find it most educational and entertaining.

ill defetinal be waiting to read that

[Haro3]

It is all just to make up for the fact that the human mind cand handle the concept of non-existing. That is where afterlife and the hope for god comes into play, no one believes in god, the human mind wont let that happen either, you can only hope.

Religion on the other hand serves another purpose. Why do most people become religous? Usually because they need something to turn to when things are at there worst, it is just a back to lean against. It serves no purpose.

My .02

agreed. but then again like i've said before i can only believ in something with scientific evidence. aka evolution. believing in religion to me is like believing in santa/magic its just not practical.

[sonar1234]

I believe in something, because I've had experiences that tell me there is more to life than just the physical.

Ie when my dad died a teacher came and told me to report to the headmasters office, which was nothing new (I was always in trouble) but I immediately thought "oh shit, dads dead"

or when my granddad was in hospital for surgery the phone rang and before I picked it up I knew he was dead.

Or when I had a dream a couple years ago that my new puppy would die, my car get stolen and then something worse happen....2 weeks later my puppy was run over, 2 weeks after that my car was stolen and 3 weeks after that I was in prison.

So if you ask me there's definitely more than just the physical world we inhabit....

I feel your pain, i lost my father and female cat of 6 years in 2006.

[sonar1234]

I HIGHLY encourage you to check out the message that I will share this up coming Monday (12/18/06). For those of you that don't know what I'm talking about, as of last week, I have elected to share my Sunday church teachings with this board on the following Monday.

The theme of my message this up coming Monday is, "How Does Your "Scale" Read?". I think you'll find it most educational and entertaining.

I will read this has well, and hope that it can provide a bit of proof to re-enforce my faith in God and Jesus.

[Kärnfysikern]

I keep on ready stuff from people and NDE, and yet i talk to people that had an NDE and they tell me that they never saw a light or anything else described by the ones in read on the internet.

Where did all this start from?, to give the human hope of survival after the body dies?

I mean life is worth living if you make it what you want, it really is painful at some point and one hell of a roller coaster ride.

I used to beleive in a life after physical death but i am kind of losing my faith in all of this

People always invent explanations for stuff we cant understand.

Its raining outside, it must be the gods of rain.
A lightning storm must be thor banging his hammer against a thickheaded troll.
That big shiny ball in the sky must be a big god with nothing better to do.
A earthquake must be some vengefull gods punishment because I screwed a married chick in the village nextby.

Why dont we ask the question if we existed somehow before we where born? Chanses are death will be just like not beeing born.

I would love to get some proof that there is life after death though. Living for 70-90 years and then just not existing anymore sounds sucky. Cant remember I went through any discomfort before I was born though.

[Carlos_E]

I HIGHLY encourage you to check out the message that I will share this up coming Monday (12/18/06). For those of you that don't know what I'm talking about, as of last week, I have elected to share my Sunday church teachings with this board on the following Monday.

The theme of my message this up coming Monday is, "How Does Your "Scale" Read?". I think you'll find it most educational and entertaining.

Religious thread will get closed.

[magic32]

People always invent explanations for stuff we cant understand.

This thread is doomed to be closed.

That's sound reasoning Johan, but how do you explain Christ and His claims?

Either he was a prolific liar, mentally deranged, or right!

And based on the numerous accounts (Biblical and extra-Biblical) of his remarkable exploits (miracles and wisdom), the fact that our very measurement of time is based on His life/death, and abundance of already fulfilled (though many seemed impossible) Bible prophecies, the latter seems most apparent.

M.

[zodiac666]

the only thing that is certain is that no one has a clue what happens when you die. also i wouldnt take a book that was written thousands of years ago too seriously, im sure it was edited and changed to help control the followers over the years. any book that says jerking off is harmful with nothing to back it up cannot be that accurate

[Kärnfysikern]

This thread is doomed to be closed.

That's sound reasoning Johan, but how do you explain Christ and His claims?

Either he was a prolific liar, mentally deranged, or right!

And based on the numerous accounts (Biblical and extra-Biblical) of his remarkable exploits (miracles and wisdom), the fact that our very measurement of time is based on His life/death, and abundance of already fulfilled (though many seemed impossible) Bible prophecies, the latter seems most apparent.

M.

I guess you have read the case for christ Lets say I am not all that convinced even though its a good book.
There is no proof, zero, that any of the miracles in the bible has happened. No sources for the miracles outside of the bible. A thing like the exodus would not have gone unoticed. The roman scholars that wrote about jesus did not verify the claimed miracles.

Cults around people have existed during all times. Jesus, mohammed, buddha, zarathustra. All of them claim stuff that can not be proven and Im sure all of them claim prophecies have been fullfilled.

But my main grip with christianity and all monotheistic religions is the claim that their god is omnipotent, all knowing and all loving. The world we live in falsify that idea.

[beuleux]

I believe in something, because I've had experiences that tell me there is more to life than just the physical.

Ie when my dad died a teacher came and told me to report to the headmasters office, which was nothing new (I was always in trouble) but I immediately thought "oh shit, dads dead"

or when my granddad was in hospital for surgery the phone rang and before I picked it up I knew he was dead.

Or when I had a dream a couple years ago that my new puppy would die, my car get stolen and then something worse happen....2 weeks later my puppy was run over, 2 weeks after that my car was stolen and 3 weeks after that I was in prison.

So if you ask me there's definitely more than just the physical world we inhabit....

Can you PM me next weeks winning lottery numbers pls and the winner of sundays 3.30 at Epsom

[l2elapse]

yeah this thread is about to get shut DOwn

[zodiac666]

yeah this thread is about to get shut DOwn

yea it sucks so many people are little bitches when it comes to getting offended

[magic32]

I guess you have read the case for christ Lets say I am not all that convinced even though its a good book.
There is no proof, zero, that any of the miracles in the bible has happened.

I WILL ACQUIESCE THIS POINT IN LIGHT OF THE LACK OF AUTHENTIC VIDEO FOOTAGE. HOWEVER, NEITHER HAVE YOU PROOF THAT THEY DID NOT OCCUR. SO LET'S PROGRESS THE CONVERSATION.

No sources for the miracles outside of the bible. A thing like the exodus would not have gone unoticed.

NOR HAVE SUCH THINGS, SCIENTIST CONCEDE THAT THE EARTH WAS INDEED COVERED WITH A RAPID LIFE DESTROYING FLOOD - NOAH; THERE IS ACTUAL VIDEO FOOTAGE AND PHOTOGRAPHS OF THE ARC RESTING AS IDENTIFED BY THE BIBLE ATOP MT. ARARAT WHICH IS NOW CONVIENTLY CLOSED OFF FROM FURTHER EXPLORATION BY THE TURKISH GOV. - MORE NOAH; THE DEAD SEA IS UNLIKE ANY OTHER BODY OF WATER IN THE ENTIRE WORLD, NOR COULD SUCH AN ANOMOLIE HAVE BEEN PREDICATED ON CHANCE YET IT BEARS COORDINANTS GEOGRAPHICALLY IDENTICAL TO WHERE THE BIBLE SAYS SODOMA AND GOMORRAH WERE DESTROYED - LOT; AND I COULD GO ON, WITH SCIENCE'S CONTINUAL AUTHENTICATING OF BIBLICALLY WRITTEN ACCOUNTS THAT WERE SIMPLY IMPOSSIBLE TO KNOW OR EVEN THEORIZE ABOUT AT THE TIME.

BUT LET US NOT QUIVEL OVER SUCH TOPICS, RATHER ADDRESS THE MAIN AND PLAIN THINGS...YOU STATE THE VERY FOUNDATIONAL CORNERSTONE OF YOUR ARGUMENT BELOW SO LET'S SPEAK TO IT SHALL WE:

But my main grip with christianity and all monotheistic religions is the claim that their god is omnipotent, all knowing and all loving. The world we live in falsify that idea.

Such a statement is diametrically opposed to fact in every way. Can 'up' be the same as 'down' or 'in' as 'out'? You've got me sounding both like a minister and a first grade teacher...

How then can one religion's system accommodate another's under the guise of "The Almighty Tolerance" when they don't even speak of the same God?

It all boils down to the Ontological Argument put forth by greatest philosophical minds Descartes, Hobbes, Hume, Spinoza, etc.:

Does God exist?

Liebniz put it thusly, and permit me to paraphrase, "A thing cannot create something it is incable of comprehending, thus a stone cannot create a functioning dog, nor a dog a functioning man, nor a man a functioning God. And as our universe is a functioning mechanism beyond man's comprehension, there is only one possibility.

Interesting.

But he was just a philosopher, how do men of 'applied' rather than 'theoretical' sciences address this question?

As explained by many of the greatest mathematical minds ever, there must be an Divine Architect simply because of the complete impossibility (not improbability as this has been proved mathematically) that we could be ideally situated in the only very small place suitable for life.

Shall we put the greatest medical minds on the stand, it's their consensus that the intricacies of a single cell could never have accidentally come into being let alone the entire body.

And even the simplest minds such as the many float on and off of this very site providing us with great entertainment and fodder for those who indulge, that and I use your own word from above..."Zero + Time + Chance, invariably = Zero".

Quite simply Jo, I don't have enough faith to be an Atheist. It's simply too fanciful a tale, as even the smallest child can tell you...Something never has and never will come from nothing.

It is absolutely amazing that a man learned or not, can look at a work of art, or listen to a concerto and know there had to be both an artist a composer. But this generation (sounding Bilblical again) can see all that they have and not God.

So if God exists, and He most assuredly does...Seek Him and let Him do the rest. For only those who are afraid of the truth and necessarily the authority that accompanies it would fail to do so.

Paul said, "I am friend of Jesus Christ", then later "I am a sevant of Him", and lastly "I am a slave of Him". Obedience is a price not many are willing to pay and thus stay away. Now you've turned me poet/rapper.

And I'm anxious for a rebuttal. But time is no longer my ally so be as brief as you can.

M.

[zodiac666]

It all boils down to the Ontological Argument put forth by greatest philosophical minds Descartes, Hobbes, Hume, Spinoza, etc.:

Does God exist?

Liebniz put it thusly, and permit me to paraphrase, "A thing cannot create something it is incable of comprehending, thus a stone cannot create a functioning dog, nor a dog a functioning man, nor a man a functioning God. And as our universe is a functioning mechanism beyond man's comprehension, there is only one possibility.

Interesting.

But he was just a philosopher, how do men of 'applied' rather than 'theoretical' sciences address this question?

As explained by many of the greatest mathematical minds ever, there must be an Divine Architect simply because of the complete impossibility (not improbability as this has been proved mathematically) that we could be ideally situated in the only very small place suitable for life.

we dont even know if the universe is finite or infinite, the chances of intelligent life somewhere else is probably close to 100%

Shall we put the greatest medical minds on the stand, it's their consensus that the intricacies of a single cell could never have accidentally come into being let alone the entire body.

And even the simplest minds such as many float on and off of this very site providing us with great entertainment and fodder for those who indulge, that and I use your own word from above..."Zero + Time + Chance, invariably = Zero".

Quite simply Jo, I don't have enough faith to be an Atheist. It's simply too fanciful a tale, as even the smallest child can tell you...Something never has and never will come from nothing.

to me it is more absurd to believe in something that is just based on humans creativeness with absolutely no proof. i just have always been a math/science guy, i like to see proofs to help me understand stuff instead of just saying "yea, that sounds good, thats definitely what happend".

not trying to be confrontational, just stating my thoughts. i dont have anything against religious people as long as they are decent humans

[magic32]

we dont even know if the universe is finite or infinite, the chances of intelligent life somewhere else is probably close to 100%
FIRSTLY, NO OFFENSE TAKEN, THIS IS WHAT OPEN FORUMS ARE FOR. SECONDLY, WE VERY SURELY DO NO THAT THE UNIVERSE IS INFINITE AND NOT ONLY THAT, BUT THAT IS CONSTANTLY INCREASING IN SIZE. THEORETICALLY AT THE SPEED OF LIGHT. AND AS ANY WELL VERSED CHRISTIAN WILL ATTEST, GOD SAID "LET THERE BE LIGHT" AND SINCE HE DIDN'T SAY FOR IT TO STOP, IT HASN'T.

to me it is more absurd to believe in something that is just based on humans creativeness with absolutely no proof.
RELIGION IS NOT BASED ON CREATIVITY. IN THE BIBLE GOD SAYS, THAT HE PLACED ETERNITY IN THE HEARTS OF MEN AND THAT THE STARS AND THE EARTH DISPLAY HIS HANDIWORK.

i just have always been a math/science guy, i like to see proofs to help me understand stuff instead of just saying "yea, that sounds good, thats definitely what happend".
YOU SEEM TO BE MORE MATH THAN SCIENCE (AS THE UNIVERSE'S EXPANSION IS FAIRLY COMMON KNOWLEDGE. YET, I NOTICED THAT YOU AVOIDED THAT WHOLE SOMETHING FROM NOTHING EQUATION. ANY COMMENTS?


not trying to be confrontational, just stating my thoughts. i dont have anything against religious people as long as they are decent humans

PLEASE CONTINUE...

M.

[Snrf]

Can you PM me next weeks winning lottery numbers pls and the winner of sundays 3.30 at Epsom

Dude I wish I could, all that stuff i said is true though.

I only seem to know about bad stuff, like an early warning system I guess...I've only ever had those 3 experiences though, wish I had them more often.

But that's whats convinced me there definitely is something else...cuz those two times I knew people were dead it wasn't me suspecting it was BAM! I KNEW they were dead, and with the dream it was bad enough that I woke up my girlfriend to tell her about it. Then I promptly forgot, it wasn't until after my car got stolen that she said "uh do you remember that dream you told me about" and I was like oh shit, whats the worst thing, what can be worse than my dog dying and car getting stolen...? a few weeks later customs kicked in my door!

[sonar1234]

Thanks for all the replies guys

[magic32]

George Washington said that in battle, thrice his hat was shot off his head and on separate occasions after returning home he'd found bullet holes in his clothing yet he remained unmarred.

No offense Brits.

M.

[zodiac666]

YOU SEEM TO BE MORE MATH THAN SCIENCE (AS THE UNIVERSE'S EXPANSION IS FAIRLY COMMON KNOWLEDGE. YET, I NOTICED THAT YOU AVOIDED THAT WHOLE SOMETHING FROM NOTHING EQUATION. ANY COMMENTS?

yea, im fairly intelligent but extremely uneducated, went to school for 4 years in my whole life. so scientifically how does your religion explain how the earth was created?

IN THE BIBLE GOD SAYS, THAT HE PLACED ETERNITY IN THE HEARTS OF MEN AND THAT THE STARS AND THE EARTH DISPLAY HIS HANDIWORK.

how is that statement not purely based on human creativity

[magic32]

I gotta fly.

Chime in Roidattack, I'm interesting in your stance.

Til later,

M.

[zodiac666]

i guess my biggest gripe about religion is how people can be 100% certain about things that have not been proven at all, i mean what if you applied that thought process to other areas of life?

[sonar1234]

i guess my biggest gripe about religion is how people can be 100% certain about things that have not been proven at all, i mean what if you applied that thought process to other areas of life?

Well many people here in Canada are starting to leave the church, and the bible.

Religion has kept people control for so long that now people are turning there backs on it, its a bit sad cause they people are getting very selfish and more me myself and i.

Its very hard has you say to beleive without proof, or people that hard die hard beleivers coming and sitting chapters of the bible.

[Snrf]

I believe in something, I don't know what.

I was raised a protestant, went to church every sunday but with a mother who teaches religious studies in a school and does a lot of research on religion the more we learned about the bible and how it has been edited and changed to suit the catholic church/British monarchy/others the less we felt "christian".

Believe me the bible you read today has very little to do with what jesus really taught, Jesus's religion was very paganistic in style, lots of earth worship, lots of celebration of the female/male. The catholic church edited it a lot (deleted entire gospels..read up on the gnostic gospels) the British monarchy too messed around with it, skewing it for their own gains.

The more we found out about this type of thing the less and less we believed in any organized religion, since all writings are subject to massive editorial interference over the last several thousand years. I still believe in something though...

[Kärnfysikern]

I WILL ACQUIESCE THIS POINT IN LIGHT OF THE LACK OF AUTHENTIC VIDEO FOOTAGE. HOWEVER, NEITHER HAVE YOU PROOF THAT THEY DID NOT OCCUR. SO LET'S PROGRESS THE CONVERSATION.

The proof is up to the one making the claim. Its alot harder to prove a negative. For instance prove to me there isnt pink unicorns on the moon...

NOR HAVE SUCH THINGS, SCIENTIST CONCEDE THAT THE EARTH WAS INDEED COVERED WITH A RAPID LIFE DESTROYING FLOOD - NOAH; THERE IS ACTUAL VIDEO FOOTAGE AND PHOTOGRAPHS OF THE ARC RESTING AS IDENTIFED BY THE BIBLE ATOP MT. ARARAT WHICH IS NOW CONVIENTLY CLOSED OFF FROM FURTHER EXPLORATION BY THE TURKISH GOV. - MORE NOAH; THE DEAD SEA IS UNLIKE ANY OTHER BODY OF WATER IN THE ENTIRE WORLD, NOR COULD SUCH AN ANOMOLIE HAVE BEEN PREDICATED ON CHANCE YET IT BEARS COORDINANTS GEOGRAPHICALLY IDENTICAL TO WHERE THE BIBLE SAYS SODOMA AND GOMORRAH WERE DESTROYED - LOT; AND I COULD GO ON, WITH SCIENCE'S CONTINUAL AUTHENTICATING OF BIBLICALLY WRITTEN ACCOUNTS THAT WERE SIMPLY IMPOSSIBLE TO KNOW OR EVEN THEORIZE ABOUT AT THE TIME.

Well show me accepted peer review references to the thing I put in bold. There is nothing to suggest the arc on MT ararat is noahs arc or even a arc at all and like you say the turkish goverment doesnt allow any examination. I have proof of the pink unicorn in my living room, but no one is allowed to examine it. Its the same kind of argument.

Not to mention the whole noah story falls when put under scrutiny. With the dimensions given in the bible the act of putting 2 of every spieces into the ark is impossible.

If there was indeed proof that the thing on the mountain is noahs ark scientists would accept it, if there was proof of a global flood scientists would accept it. Proof is all science cares about.
But there cant have been a global flood simply because of the ammount required to flood all of earth to the higest mountain peaks. That ammount of water could not just disapere because it would be orders of magnitued above all the water on earth.
There is no evidence for such a thing in any fossile record. The burden of proof is on the one making the claim, Show me accepter peer review articles from the big geological journals and Il read it. There would have been a mass extinction at that time in history and there are none.

Such a statement is diametrically opposed to fact in every way. Can 'up' be the same as 'down' or 'in' as 'out'? You've got me sounding both like a minister and a first grade teacher

Well If good was all knowing, all loving and omnipotent the world would not be in the state it is. The entire "the world is the way it is because of free will" is not logicaly consistent with a omnipotent god.
A omnipotent god would be able to create all humans so that they have free will yet wants to do no harm on anyone. You might claim that is programing us.
But if god exist we are already programed to be violent animals. Every act we do a omnipotent god would know of before he creates us. That means he would intentionaly create murderers to become murderers, atheist to become atheists ect. Nothing can happen by accident with a omnipotent and all knowing god. All my actions are a result of the way my mind works and if god is omnipotent he created my mind to work in the way it does.

Every bad thing that has happened through out history was allowed to happen by a all knowing, all loving and omnipotent god. Does not seem logicaly consistent.

So either god is not omnipotent and that means the bible lies and everything is in doubt, or he is omnipotent but surely not all loving and that also means the bible lies. Or there is no god.

Liebniz put it thusly, and permit me to paraphrase, "A thing cannot create something it is incable of comprehending, thus a stone cannot create a functioning dog, nor a dog a functioning man, nor a man a functioning God. And as our universe is a functioning mechanism beyond man's comprehension, there is only one possibility.

At one point in time the sun was beyond human comprehension...

We can modell and describe the universe from the first nanoseconds all the way to today 13 billion years later. We can modell and describe almost all natural phenomenon that occur in the universe. We can in our particle accelerators create conditions that hasnt existed in the universe since the firsth billionth of a second of the big bang. No sign of gods hand in any of those processes...The mechanisms of the universe is beeing explained one by one by science, without a need for a god. The universe is not incomprehensible.
The only place I can se the possibility of a god is as the one that started it all. The rest science can explain. But I dont se what point there is in making a god hypothesis just because I cant explain the creation of the universe yet...

As explained by many of the greatest mathematical minds ever, there must be an Divine Architect simply because of the complete impossibility (not improbability as this has been proved mathematically) that we could be ideally situated in the only very small place suitable for life.

Not true. show me the mathematical proof if you may. Those arguments losely based on probabiluty that I have seen have been quite naive and missinterpreting basic physics and biology.

There is nothing that makes it mathematicaly impossible for life to appear on earth. There are so many places in the universe where life can appear that its not even funny.
Since we dont know anything about what acctualy happens when non living things become living we can not even speculate about the odds of such a thing happening spontaniously. Thats not science its oppinion.
But the laws of nature drives the universe towards complexity. That is a scientific fact. Entropy is maximised when electrons bond with nucles, when atoms bond with atoms, when molecules bond with other molecules, when solids are formed.

Shall we put the greatest medical minds on the stand, it's their consensus that the intricacies of a single cell could never have accidentally come into being let alone the entire body.

No one claims that a bunch of inorganic molecules bunched togheter and formed a human cell all of a sudden. Thats not what evolution claims....

Quite simply Jo, I don't have enough faith to be an Atheist. It's simply too fanciful a tale, as even the smallest child can tell you...Something never has and never will come from nothing.

Well a child might say that, but a scientists might not be so bold as to make such a sweeping statement. But no good scientist claims that we got something out of nothing.
Our regular sense of causality breaks down when we talk pre big bang. We dont know if even time itself existed pre big bang. But just because we dont know doesnt mean there isnt a explanation.

Its also a matter of what you mean with nothing. Particles are spontaniously created, briefly exist and then destroyed all the time in totaly empty vaccum. So thats something out of nothing. The most basic principles of physics acctualy prevent nothingness if that makes any sense

It is absolutely amazing that a man learned or not, can look at a work of art, or listen to a concerto and know there had to be both an artist a composer. But this generation (sounding Bilblical again) can see all that they have and not God.

So if God exists, and He most assuredly does...Seek Him and let Him do the rest. For only those who are afraid of the truth and necessarily the authority that accompanies it would fail to do so.

A snowflake can be alot more amazing and pretty than any work of art. Yet it is a creation driven only by statistical physics and randomness. Just because the universe is pretty and amazing doesnt say much at all, since beauty only exist in our mind and not as a intrinsic property of the universe.

If I could choose I would choose a universe where a god exists. But assuming there is a god would be a purely emotional act by me without any basis in my studies. The universe doesnt care about what I want, what I like and what I dislike. It just is the way it is. The idea of a sterile universe that cares not about my existance is alot less comforting than the idea of a all loving father.

Paul said, "I am friend of Jesus Christ", then later "I am a sevant of Him", and lastly "I am a slave of Him". Obedience is a price not many are willing to pay and thus stay away. Now you've turned me poet/rapper.

And I'm anxious for a rebuttal. But time is no longer my ally so be as brief as you can.

M.

Well thats my rebuttal But I think the conversation has to end with this one because Im going away tomorrow and wont have the net aviable for a week or so. If you answere Il get back to you then.

[slob]

"Because you don't believe in something doesn't give any of your the right to call it bullshit."

Yes it does. It's called an opinion. You don't have to like it, you just have to read it. Ever heard of free-speech?

[Kärnfysikern]

FIRSTLY, NO OFFENSE TAKEN, THIS IS WHAT OPEN FORUMS ARE FOR. SECONDLY, WE VERY SURELY DO NO THAT THE UNIVERSE IS INFINITE AND NOT ONLY THAT, BUT THAT IS CONSTANTLY INCREASING IN SIZE. THEORETICALLY AT THE SPEED OF LIGHT. AND AS ANY WELL VERSED CHRISTIAN WILL ATTEST, GOD SAID "LET THERE BE LIGHT" AND SINCE HE DIDN'T SAY FOR IT TO STOP, IT HASN'T.

Acctualy we dont know that the universe is infinite. The only thing we know is that the large scale curvature of the universe seems to indicate that the universe might be infinite, but the error bars on the mesurements are so far to large to exclude a slight curvate. If there is a slight curvature the universe is finitie without a boundary. The same way as the surface of a sphere is finite but without boundary.

Its also not realy scientific to say anything about what is outside the visible universe because whats outside the visible universe is forever causualy disconnected from us and therefor can never have any effect on us and neither can we ever know anything about it.

[Flagg]

Maybe im tired cause normally I like these kinda threads but really..this is a debate with no end.

At the end of the day we're no different to a battery.

[magic32]

Okay, just got back lots to address so I'm on it.

M.

[Carlos_E]

Maybe im tired cause normally I like these kinda threads but really..this is a debate with no end.

...and thats why they're closed.

[magic32]

From my perusal of the latest posts, It looks like I can speak to many of them with a single bit of info. Of course most of my good buddy Johan's material, who makes some really good points will require more detailed information. But first things first.

The major problem as I see it is the misconception that religion and science are at enmity. When this couldn't be further from the truth, they are actually sisters as evidenced by science's constant changing when new information is presented, which mind you is often already Biblically held.

For example, many athiests argue that the Bible's account of the stars being more than can be numbered was false, until of course it enlightened by the vastness of the universe and it's abundant galaxies.

I just want to get this out as I write.

M.

[magic32]

...and thats why they're closed.

Should a hearty debate be closed because both sides hold fast to their beliefs but continue to converse in a scholarly fashion?

I think not!

M.

[magic32]

This will intrigue all of you.
In the words of Morpheus, “Open your mind.”

How can an omnipotent, all loving God permit His earth to be in such disarray complete with abortions, tragedies, disease, pestilence, etc…

What if I tell you that God said, He created man in His image, which means both have two hands, not three. Both have one head and that both are immortal?

What say you Johan?

M.

[zodiac666]

From my perusal of the latest posts, It looks like I can speak to many of them with a single bit of info. Of course most of my good buddy Johan's material, who makes some really good points will require more detailed information. But first things first.

The major problem as I see it is the misconception that religion and science are at enmity. When this couldn't be further from the truth, they are actually sisters as evidenced by science's constant changing when new information is presented, which mind you is often already Biblically held.

For example, many athiests argue that the Bible's account of the stars being more than can be numbered was false, until of course it enlightened by the vastness of the universe and it's abundant galaxies.

I just want to get this out as I write.

M.

but again the huge difference between science and religion is that scientists minds can be changed when they find new evidence, religious people claim that this book that was written ages ago is 100% accurate and can not be proven wrong no matter what.