A soldiers story

**firmechicano831** · 01-04-2007, 01:27 AM

What's up peeps. Well I came along this really good story about an American Soldier. It's somewhat long but really interesting. Just wanted to see what you feel about his case.
I belive that he has the right to choose to not go to war because of what he thinks is right. What do you guys think?

http://hotzone.yahoo.com/b/hotzone/blogs19056

**CSAR** · 01-04-2007, 01:41 AM

Sorry, but I disagree. He voluntarily joined the military. He swore an oath to Congress to fulfill his duties as an officer in the U.S. Army. Therefore, he is not entitled to choose whether or not he wants to go. Choice is a luxury that service members do not have. Therefore, he should be sent to Leavenworth to make big rocks into little rocks. I know it sounds harsh, but seriously, what does he think the raison d'être of the military is? If he wanted to have more freedom of choice, then he should've joined the Peace Corps.

Courtesy of CSAR - Gulf War Vet and proud member of the VFW

**firmechicano831** · 01-04-2007, 01:51 AM

I just think that President Bush has lied so much to the American people and congress that some soldiers don't want to die for something they don't believe in.

**wascaptain5214** · 01-04-2007, 05:33 AM

Originally Posted by CSAR

Sorry, but I disagree. He voluntarily joined the military. He swore an oath to Congress to fulfill his duties as an officer in the U.S. Army. Therefore, he is not entitled to choose whether or not he wants to go. Choice is a luxury that service members do not have. Therefore, he should be sent to Leavenworth to make big rocks into little rocks. I know it sounds harsh, but seriously, what does he think the raison d'être of the military is? If he wanted to have more freedom of choice, then he should've joined the Peace Corps.

Courtesy of CSAR - Gulf War Vet and proud member of the VFW

well said

**CSAR** · 01-04-2007, 06:23 AM

Originally Posted by firmechicano831

I just think that President Bush has lied so much to the American people and congress that some soldiers don't want to die for something they don't believe in.

I don't mean to harp on this and I mean no disrespect to you, but I think you're missing the point. When you take the oath to serve in the U.S. armed forces, you no longer have the rights afforded to a citizen of the United States of America. It doesn't matter if POTUS lies, receives fellatio from an unattractive secretary/aide, etc. You either follow your orders or you pay the price, which is fair and just.

Because he chose to disobey orders, that means someone else is going to be ordered to step up and take his place. It could be his first sergeant, who might be a single dad raising three kids who's due to retire in 9 months. Now, sarge can't process out until after his 1 year tour is up. Adding injury to insult is that sarge makes about half of what this officer makes. Or it could be a less experienced officer who has the tactical knowledge of Mr. Potatohead and ends up issuing bonehead orders that put soldiers at needless risk.

Worst of all is that he's an officer. This sends the wrong message and fuels resentment among those who do follow orders. I hope he is found guilty on all counts and receives the harshest sentence possible.

Members of the armed forces take that oath of honor, courage, and commitment without any mention of politics or the actions of politicians. Honor - a person's oath given as a guarantee of performance. Courage - action in spite of great fear, difficulty, and danger. Commitment - an agreement or obligation. Where's his honor, courage, and commitment?

**NightTrain** · 01-04-2007, 10:00 AM

Originally Posted by CSAR

I don't mean to harp on this and I mean no disrespect to you, but I think you're missing the point. When you take the oath to serve in the U.S. armed forces, you no longer have the rights afforded to a citizen of the United States of America. It doesn't matter if POTUS lies, receives fellatio from an unattractive secretary/aide, etc. You either follow your orders or you pay the price, which is fair and just.

Because he chose to disobey orders, that means someone else is going to be ordered to step up and take his place. It could be his first sergeant, who might be a single dad raising three kids who's due to retire in 9 months. Now, sarge can't process out until after his 1 year tour is up. Adding injury to insult is that sarge makes about half of what this officer makes. Or it could be a less experienced officer who has the tactical knowledge of Mr. Potatohead and ends up issuing bonehead orders that put soldiers at needless risk.

Worst of all is that he's an officer. This sends the wrong message and fuels resentment among those who do follow orders. I hope he is found guilty on all counts and receives the harshest sentence possible.

Members of the armed forces take that oath of honor, courage, and commitment without any mention of politics or the actions of politicians. Honor - a person's oath given as a guarantee of performance. Courage - action in spite of great fear, difficulty, and danger. Commitment - an agreement or obligation. Where's his honor, courage, and commitment?

well said CSAR, as a SFC with 16.5 years in service and 2 trips to Bosnia, and 2 tours to Operation Iraqi Freedom i couldnt have said it better myself. he is an officer and he made the choice to join for whatever reason now he must do what he said he would do. NT

**Shane35aa** · 01-04-2007, 04:25 PM

Members of the armed forces take that oath of honor, courage, and commitment without any mention of politics or the actions of politicians. Honor - a person's oath given as a guarantee of performance. Courage - action in spite of great fear, difficulty, and danger. Commitment - an agreement or obligation. Where's his honor, courage, and commitment?[/QUOTE]

I agree a 100%. Csar, night train thanks for ya'll service been there too. The man is a coward, personally feel like he should be shot or hung for desertion. Freedom of choice is one freedom that must be given up when serving in the miltary, so that we can all enjoy the freedoms we do.

**cfiler** · 01-04-2007, 04:26 PM

He doesn't have a choice. If he didn't want to serve, he shouldn't have signed up.

When you are a soldier, you don't have any choices. You do as you are ordered. No if, ands, or buts.

**SS1476** · 01-04-2007, 04:36 PM

Originally Posted by firmechicano831

I just think that President Bush has lied so much to the American people and congress that some soldiers don't want to die
for something they don't believe in.

he signed up.

That's because the liberal media
has beaten that crap into your head.

What did he lie about?
WMD's?? c'mon..they were used twice
by Saddam,the kurds,and also during
the Iran/Iraq war of the 80's.Quit living
in the past,and focus on tomorrow..

A time when other countries clearly want
DEATH TO AMERICA and everything we
believe in..sh!t,they chant it everyday..

Never once did you see any democrats
try and unite the country,they would
rather divide us during a time of war.

Liberals divide..they now have 2 yrs to
man up and show us what they can do.
Theres a reason why democrats have
been out of power in congress for 14 yrs.

lol... Pelosi is a perfect example,it wont work.

**MuscleScience** · 01-04-2007, 04:36 PM

doesnt matter what his personal beliefs are, Military structure doesnt allow for someone to think that thier commander is wrong or stupid. He must obey the orders. Just think, nobody wants to go into a house full of combatants or storm a fox hole. If everyone in the army thought that the commands were wrong then we would not have an effective fighting force. Plus many people thought the revolutionary war was illegal. He should be procecuted to the fullest extent of military law. Plus I think its an excuse for him to be a coward. A real soldier would not make excuses and do his duty, not just for his country but to his buddies as well.

**Shane35aa** · 01-04-2007, 04:45 PM

The name of this thread should be changed. It shouldn't be called a Soldiers Story...that implies honor.

In reference to that dirtbag slimeball it should be called "A Cowards Story" or "A Chickensh_t Tale"

The thing that really irks me is some honorable soldier had to go in this douchebags place. So he's over there now hoping to not get his ass blown up while the media makes a darling out of this worthless punk.

**Shane35aa** · 01-04-2007, 04:52 PM

Think they outta revoke this citizenship throw him in a C-130 with a chute kick him out of the side door over baghdad. Let him relocate there. >>>After a fair trial of course

**NightTrain** · 01-04-2007, 06:52 PM

Originally Posted by Shane35aa

Think they outta revoke this citizenship throw him in a C-130 with a chute kick him out of the side door over baghdad. Let him relocate there. >>>After a fair trial of course

BRAVO shane, BRA-fvcking-vO.......

**king6** · 01-04-2007, 08:34 PM

Originally Posted by NightTrain

BRAVO shane, BRA-fvcking-vO.......

OOH-RAHH.

**LawMan018** · 01-05-2007, 01:04 AM

This man is a shining example of how all should act. He took an oath to protect America and uphold the constitution... Not fight in an illegal war based on false truths. He initially signed up because he, like all of us, were lied to heavily about the whole ordeal. This man actually stood up for what he believed, when many would have just fallen silent. This war has made our standing in the world all that more terrible. We are in huge amounts of debt, and our reputation is ruined and will be for a very long time. Now can someone say, "Is it 2008 yet?"

**J.S.N.** · 01-05-2007, 01:13 AM

just another reason why joining the military is one of the worst decisions one coudl ever hope to make.

**LawMan018** · 01-05-2007, 01:32 AM

At this point in time yes, when we start getting involved in events that matter and have a purpose... Well...

**CSAR** · 01-05-2007, 01:42 AM

Enlisted's Oath
"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

Officer's Oath (Army)
"I, _____ (SSAN), having been appointed an officer in the Army of the United States, as indicated above in the grade of _____ do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign or domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservations or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to enter; So help me God."

In either oath, where does it state that "I will only obey orders if they are agreeable to me and in line with my political views" or "This oath becomes null and void when elected politicians (including POTUS) tell lies"?

**zodiac666** · 01-05-2007, 02:29 AM

just imagine if we had a lot of people like that in our military. i happen to think iraq was a big mistake, but you cant choose what missions you want to go on. glad we didnt have anybody like that in my unit.

**dhriscerr** · 01-05-2007, 03:15 AM

I dont know if I agree with Iraq, but guess what 2 tours later I did what was asked of me and what had to be done, and by the way its not about what you think is right anyway, I went to Iraq because my best friends went and I wanted to make sure they made it home just like I did, you think the soldiers fight over there for the average joe? F*CK NO!!! They fight for there brothers next to them, because they chose that path.
And to you JSN, Im glad you think that joining the military is one of the stupidest things someone can do, guess why you have the freedom to think like that because of the people that dont think its the stupidest Idea and have alittle honor, courage and commitment to what the believe in. I probably got more out of 4 years in the military than Ill ever really get out of the rest of my life as far as respect, life lessons, and maturity. And I think the united states should be like isreal and make all males join the military, then maybe people would have alittle more resepect for there freedoms, pretty easy to take things for granted when you have no Idea what its like to have them stripped from you. I think this guy is a coward, and if for no other reason, he bailed on his friends, what kind of man isnt there for his friends? I hope his parents are ashamed of the kind of kid they raised. PATHETIC!!!

**dhriscerr** · 01-05-2007, 03:19 AM

Maybe these will hit home with some of you then

**J.S.N.** · 01-05-2007, 03:22 AM

Originally Posted by dhriscerr

I dont know if I agree with Iraq, but guess what 2 tours later I did what was asked of me and what had to be done, and by the way its not about what you think is right anyway, I went to Iraq because my best friends went and I wanted to make sure they made it home just like I did, you think the soldiers fight over there for the average joe? F*CK NO!!! They fight for there brothers next to them, because they chose that path.
And to you JSN, Im glad you think that joining the military is one of the stupidest things someone can do, guess why you have the freedom to think like that because of the people that dont think its the stupidest Idea and have alittle honor, courage and commitment to what the believe in. I probably got more out of 4 years in the military than Ill ever really get out of the rest of my life as far as respect, life lessons, and maturity. And I think the united states should be like isreal and make all males join the military, then maybe people would have alittle more resepect for there freedoms, pretty easy to take things for granted when you have no Idea what its like to have them stripped from you. I think this guy is a coward, and if for no other reason, he bailed on his friends, what kind of man isnt there for his friends? I hope his parents are ashamed of the kind of kid they raised. PATHETIC!!!

the last time we were invaded was 1812, so i don't really feel like my freedoms are owed to the military.

**wascaptain5214** · 01-05-2007, 05:01 AM

Originally Posted by J.S.N.

the last time we were invaded was 1812, so i don't really feel like my freedoms are owed to the military.

no comment......i will just disagree, to keep it civil

**CSAR** · 01-05-2007, 07:03 AM

Originally Posted by J.S.N.

the last time we were invaded was 1812, so i don't really feel like my freedoms are owed to the military.

Last time I checked, the US was invaded and attacked on September 11, 2001.

J.S.N. - we've had our disagreements and you're entitled to your opinion, but saying that joining the military is one of the worst decisions anyone can make is very offensive to those of us who served. Our military members give up their rights so that regular citizens, like yourself, can enjoy theirs - whether they realize it or not.

To everyone else - for many young men and women, joining the military is often the only decision they have. The four years I served are the four proudest years of my life. I wasn't always happy and I didn't always agree with the orders of my superiors, but I did my duty because it meant that I and the Marines in my platoon would have better odds of staying alive.

This officer's refusal to follow his orders, especially because of his reasons, is one of the most selfish acts a soldier can make. Worst of all, he betrayed the trust and confidence of the men he was entrusted to lead - especially as they'll still be deployed to Iraq, while he's eating 3 hot meals, taking hot showers, and sleeping in a warm bunk.

**SS1476** · 01-05-2007, 09:00 AM

Were under threat ED folks.
GOD BLESS THE MILITARY.

Where in US do you see people
chanting "death to Iran" nowhere..

**zodiac666** · 01-05-2007, 09:09 AM

Originally Posted by SS1476

Where in US do you see people
chanting "death to Iran" nowhere..

stop by my place when im drunk sometime

**SS1476** · 01-05-2007, 09:19 AM

Originally Posted by zodiac666

stop by my place when im drunk sometime

I would join in then

We'll need news coverage

**dhriscerr** · 01-05-2007, 10:36 AM

Originally Posted by J.S.N.

the last time we were invaded was 1812, so i don't really feel like my freedoms are owed to the military.

Maybe the last time we were invaded was 1812 for a reason! Because we have the most powerful military in the world and no one could sustain and invasion on our territory. And you tell me this, would you rather have 3000 people in 4 years that chose to serve and die for thier country in iraq fighting the war on terrorism or would you rather have another 3000 die in One day like 9/11. we fight there! SO WE DONT HAVE TO FIGHT HERE!!

**Shane35aa** · 01-05-2007, 10:40 AM

JSN I disagree the worst decision anyone could make would to be a coward.

**LawMan018** · 01-05-2007, 12:17 PM

We fight there? No, no, no, we become sitting ducks there doing nothing but trying to preserve a fragile government... The war isn't going to be brought over here... I mean, hell, now that we went into Iraq and ****ed it up, the Jihadist movement and hate for America is even greater so who knows. What we did was illegal, immoral, and unethical... A soldier standing up against a deceiving government is just one step closer to our goal of ending this mistake of a war. Those 3,000 dead soldiers will in all have died for nothing. Sure they fought for their country, but it was for nothing... They died for the lies and deceit of a man with a grudge.

**king6** · 01-05-2007, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by LawMan018

We fight there? No, no, no, we become sitting ducks there doing nothing but trying to preserve a fragile government... The war isn't going to be brought over here... I mean, hell, now that we went into Iraq and ****ed it up, the Jihadist movement and hate for America is even greater so who knows. What we did was illegal, immoral, and unethical... A soldier standing up against a deceiving government is just one step closer to our goal of ending this mistake of a war. Those 3,000 dead soldiers will in all have died for nothing. Sure they fought for their country, but it was for nothing... They died for the lies and deceit of a man with a grudge.

Whose this we talk? You were not there, because you did not want to go. I did, that is why I joined the Marines. Granted I joined before Sept 11, so I had no idea what was going to happen. But when the time came to be discharged I extended my enlistment so I could go to Iraq, no one made me go, that was my desicion.

**king6** · 01-05-2007, 12:30 PM

Originally Posted by Shane35aa

JSN I disagree the worst decision anyone could make would to be a coward.

I'd rather die with honor, then live and be branded a coward. We fight for each other, the Marines to our left and our right. This is what we fight for.

http://www.mishalov.com/dunham-iraq.html

**Hunter** · 01-05-2007, 12:32 PM

Originally Posted by LawMan018

We fight there? No, no, no, we become sitting ducks there doing nothing but trying to preserve a fragile government... The war isn't going to be brought over here... I mean, hell, now that we went into Iraq and ****ed it up, the Jihadist movement and hate for America is even greater so who knows. What we did was illegal, immoral, and unethical... A soldier standing up against a deceiving government is just one step closer to our goal of ending this mistake of a war. Those 3,000 dead soldiers will in all have died for nothing. Sure they fought for their country, but it was for nothing... They died for the lies and deceit of a man with a grudge.

Soldiers choose to serve, same as a police officer, firefighter etc. These man deserve are out most respect. I was not there you were not there so dont say we. You also gather most of you info from the news, ever heard of a baisis? I live in a town with a base and know alot of soldiers. All are proud they served. You have no right to say they died for nothing.

**J.S.N.** · 01-05-2007, 01:10 PM

Originally Posted by dhriscerr

Maybe the last time we were invaded was 1812 for a reason! Because we have the most powerful military in the world and no one could sustain and invasion on our territory. And you tell me this, would you rather have 3000 people in 4 years that chose to serve and die for thier country in iraq fighting the war on terrorism or would you rather have another 3000 die in One day like 9/11. we fight there! SO WE DONT HAVE TO FIGHT HERE!!

we didn't have the most powerful military until after WW2, and before ww1 america was highly isolationist, which a largely self-sustaining economy.

Originally Posted by king6

I'd rather die with honor, then live and be branded a coward. We fight for each other, the Marines to our left and our right. This is what we fight for.

that's just the attitude guys like bush and cheney love. you die they make money.

**Logan13** · 01-05-2007, 01:18 PM

Originally Posted by J.S.N.

we didn't have the most powerful military until after WW2, and before ww1 america was highly isolationist, which a largely self-sustaining economy.
that's just the attitude guys like bush and cheney love. you die they make money.

And your statements are those that Michael Moore loves to hear while he makes money.

**Logan13** · 01-05-2007, 01:20 PM

Originally Posted by captain5214

no comment......i will just disagree, to keep it civil

Agreed, there is no point. Besides, there is no cure for "stupid"!

**Fordfan01** · 01-05-2007, 01:45 PM

Originally Posted by LawMan018

We fight there? No, no, no, we become sitting ducks there doing nothing but trying to preserve a fragile government... The war isn't going to be brought over here... I mean, hell, now that we went into Iraq and ****ed it up, the Jihadist movement and hate for America is even greater so who knows. What we did was illegal, immoral, and unethical... A soldier standing up against a deceiving government is just one step closer to our goal of ending this mistake of a war. Those 3,000 dead soldiers will in all have died for nothing. Sure they fought for their country, but it was for nothing... They died for the lies and deceit of a man with a grudge.

Some of these soldiers may not believe in this war but they are out there everyday not knowing if they will see tommorrow. They knew when they enlisted that they could one day give their life for this country. This is the greatest honor ever. These men did not die for nothing THEY DIED FOR EVERY AMERICAN and should be considered heros.

As a firefighter and a hopefully future Navy SEAL i believe risking ur life for someone else, maybe someone u dont even know is the greatest thing a man can do.

**Shane35aa** · 01-05-2007, 02:10 PM

Originally Posted by Logan13

Agreed, there is no point. Besides, there is no cure for "stupid"!

Neither is there a cure for cowardice. The media thinks they can cure him though by using " the he's standing up for what he believes" lie. Its a damn shame this buttwipe will get more recognition that probably any of the men who gave their life over there and served with honor. " Still think his citizens hip should be revoked, put him in a C130 with a chute and kick his chickensh_t a$$ out over baghdad. Wait on second thought don't waste a chute.

**Shane35aa** · 01-05-2007, 02:12 PM

Fordfan good luck with Seal training. Worked with several Seals they are exceptional warriors

**king6** · 01-05-2007, 02:42 PM

Originally Posted by J.S.N.

we didn't have the most powerful military until after WW2, and before ww1 america was highly isolationist, which a largely self-sustaining economy.
that's just the attitude guys like bush and cheney love. you die they make money.

I never saw Bush or Cheney cruising around in a Ferrari, or clubing with Paris Hilton.