Another mind blowing question by BJ69. =]

[Bojangles69]

Ok the "difficulty" of this question is 99.9% relative to your whole preconceived notions about the idea but I want you to consider the following and think about it before you answer the question..

This is a question on psychology:

Some of you may or may not realize that if you were gay in the past you were considered to have a mental disorder diagnosable by the DSM IV. (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders)

I personally am hetero, but I major in psychology. I completely agree that being gay is NOT = to having a mental disorder. I know a few gay people who are probaly a great deal saner than myself.


I'm going to push the question further now because this is actually a question in my head I can't reach a logical conclusion for. One day in the future I will prob be faced with someone who comes into my office and I'm just not sure the DSM takes the right position on this issue.

The question is:

Do you consider a transgender person, somebody who wants to be the opposite gender of which they were born, someone with a mental disorder?

The DSM IV currently says YES, the disorder is called "gender identity disorder" and its considered a diagnosable mental disorder.

But is it really? or
Thats my question. I have met only **1** transgender person in my life but never got to know them good enough to make any solid judgements about them, even if I did my judgements on one person arent generalizable to a whole population. And I really stand on the fence with this question. One part of me wants to say no! these people DO NOT have a mental disorder, but another part of me says maybe they really do..


I just want peoples philosophies, opinions, ANYTHING because out of everything I've studied in that book this is one topic Im really puzzled by.

[Tock]

It used to be that the only gay people that shrinks knew, and based their professional opinions on, were their screwed-up patients.

My guess is that eventually, shrinks will find a number of psychologically healthy transgender people and will adjust their professional opinions accordingly. Meanwhile, it won't be difficult to find transgender folks living under stress and harrassment, which usually creates other illnesses.

[dirtball_619]

"gender identity disorder" would be a disorder were say there a male but feel like there a female correct? because despite whats behind there legs they believe there not the gender god gave them. i believe thats a disorder if in your mind you believe your a girl but your really a boy.

now if a person just gets off on living the role of the opposites gender then its hard to tell or not, people get off on differant things... i guess. i dont know man thats deep.

BTW-check your pms.

[gigem]

well i have knowna couple of transgenders as you call them one through a mutual friend and one was my exes friends brother and me being the person i am asked them when did they knew both of them told me they were always that way. well it made sense some people are born alchoholics why not gay? now im not saying they were all born gay maybe it works along the same lines as addiction were all born with it but with some people it gets triggered and with some it lies dormant

[ginkobulloba]

Funny thing you ask this. Just last night a friend and I went out and checked out some of the nightlife for a little while. He wanted to show me some chick who worked at a bar he knew. Turns out this bar was right in the heart of "soi katoey" that means ladyboy street.

It didn't take long for shit to get weird, I was aggravated just by being there. I'd say 99% of these ladyboys are drunk or high 99% of the time. They are mostly thieves and all are prostitutes. They resort to petty crime to support their lifestyles. When you leave the area and head out to some of the other towns surrounding Patong, especially after dark, be careful. These creatures are positioned all over the place, lurking there on their motorbikes, waiting for foreigners on their way home to pass by. When this happens, the ladyboy will yell out something like "hey, handsome man! where you go?" This shit has happened to me and a lot of people I know. What happens next? Typically you look at this freak and decide there is no way in hell you are getting anywhere near that person. You say something like "fck you, I'm out!" and keep on driving. Then, the crazy ladyboy tears down the road after you, chasing you in the middle of the night, at high speeds on their little motorbike, screaming shit like "where you go?"

This stuff happens on a daily basis. It happened to me one time at like 3 am in the pouring rain. There I was on my motorcycle, coming home in the rain and all of a sudden I am getting chased by a transvestite.

Dude, so much crazy shit happens out here. Every once in a while you read some crazy stuff in the newspapers. Last year there was a French guy on vacation who unknowingly had sex with a ladyboy who told him that "she" was really a girl (it can be very hard to tell sometimes.) After he found out that he had just screwed a freak, he panicked, told the ladyboy to get the hell out and a fight ensued. Then, the ladyboy got on its phone and called it's posse, which they all have, and then they threatened to kill the dude if he didn't pay up. It ended up with him jumping out of his 3rd story balcony and getting his name and face in the newspaper with the whole story attached. Nice vacation, huh?

This is more typical than you can imagine. Personally I think it's a violation of nature. That said, I don't really care what another person does to their own body or in their own bedroom. But, over here, these crazy people are only contributing to negative shit. I don't even want to look at them. Some of them are, no shit, really close to looking like chicks. I mean, people just can't help but to stare at them in amazement and think all kinds of fcked up thoughts. So, I try and stay away from them as much as possible. I had one that hung out at my bar once in a while. One day my business partner was telling me some friends of his came by and were staring at the ladyboy saying how fine it was. My partner is like "that's a fcking dude!" They weren't even that bothered by it, said they'd still pay for a blowjob. That's the kind of messed up attitude people get after they stay here too long and stare at these freaks too much.

Anyway, that's enough typing for now. I don't really hate these people, but I do think they have a mental disorder and at least out here they are a menace to society.

[Serotonin]

BJ- I'm minoring in psych and I always have a hard time buying most of the bullshit in those DSM books. First, they're incredibly dynamic and change all the time... clearly homosexuality is proof of this. Secondly, I feel that our technical knowledge is evolving MUCH more rapidly than our moral capacity. If you look back to ancient Greece, homosexuality was quite common among most people. It is just now becoming moderately accepted in our society as we kind of devolved with religion and all that other horse-shit.

Ultimately, a lot of gender differences are nothing more than a form of social conditioning to me. There is an inherent difference in behavior, which is mainly dictated by the sex hormones, but it varies greatly from person to person. Call me a radical but I don't believe gender identity disorder should be considered a mental disorder or a disorder at all. It makes more sense to me that it could be a product or the culmination of a persons nature versus the environment that raised and conditioned them.

Good question though... I'm a bit of nihilist and personally think most world societies are abominations to natural life. If there are people who wish to change their gender to the best of their ability, then so be it.

[Bojangles69]

BJ- I'm minoring in psych and I always have a hard time buying most of the bullshit in those DSM books. First, they're incredibly dynamic and change all the time... clearly homosexuality is proof of this. Secondly, I feel that our technical knowledge is evolving MUCH more rapidly than our moral capacity. If you look back to ancient Greece, homosexuality was quite common among most people. It is just now becoming moderately accepted in our society as we kind of devolved with religion and all that other horse-shit.

Ultimately, a lot of gender differences are nothing more than a form of social conditioning to me. There is an inherent difference in behavior, which is mainly dictated by the sex hormones, but it varies greatly from person to person. Call me a radical but I don't believe gender identity disorder should be considered a mental disorder or a disorder at all. It makes more sense to me that it could be a product or the culmination of a persons nature versus the environment that raised and conditioned them.

Good question though... I'm a bit of nihilist and personally think most world societies are abominations to natural life. If there are people who wish to change their gender to the best of their ability, then so be it.

Excellent insight!! Not only because I think I agree with you 100% but you brought up a lot of things that are going through my head like the island of "lesbos", social conditioning vs. nonconformity, the fact that the DSM is only a fvckn book (although a VERY influential one) and I think I'm leaning more towards it NOT being a disorder at all as well.

[Bojangles69]

Thanks for all the other feedback as well.

And ginko you DO bring up your what are considered "naturalistic observations" in research but can also have many limits.
Like the fact that there are tons of "ladyboy's" that come from midde class or even high class regions and have money for the hormones/surgery and are MUCH MUCH harder to spot than the ones who come from areas of poverty and have to resort to crime for $$ and can't afford hormones or surgery.

So good insight, I don't doubt what you say, but this pattern would have to mesh with middle class and high class transgender behavoir before it could really be considered significant.

All good stuff gents, keep it coming!

[ginkobulloba]

Ok, well maybe wanting to have your dick chopped off isn't a mental disorder...

...pause for contemplation...

but every one I have seen is a mess on so many levels. Like Tock said, they've got major mental issues perhaps as a result of their getting their dicks chopped off.

[ginkobulloba]

Oh, and Bo. These ladyboys are typically excommunicated from their families. This is not something parents here are proud of. They get the operations mostly by stealing, having some foreigner pay for it, or just by saving their pennies from working or whoring. The operation is very cheap out here. For like $2000 they go from a dude to a katoey.

[Bojangles69]

Oh, and Bo. These ladyboys are typically excommunicated from their families. This is not something parents here are proud of. They get the operations mostly by stealing, having some foreigner pay for it, or just by saving their pennies from working or whoring. The operation is very cheap out here. For like $2000 they go from a dude to a katoey.

Ok the reason I ask is because I just watched an hour special about it on MSNBC (i think) and there was like 5 tranny's and only 1 came from a poor area. But they all seemed perfectly normal imo and I was under the impression that the surgery is a lot more than the figure you mentioned, because a lot of people on the show said thier worst fear was that they might not ever have enough $$ to get the surgery. I'm gonna go google $$ figures, its prob all true where you come from but I'm not really sure what its like around here cuz I live in like one giant suburban bubble.

[C_Bino]

Interesting indeed. I really dont know my stance to be quite honest. Sure I am accepting of anyone, but I am with you Bo, kinda of on the fence.

Cool thread.

[Bojangles69]

ok some figure I found:

The average cost for a male-to-female surgery is about $11,000. Adding in a cost of about $1000 for therapy, $1500 for hormones, and $500 for doctors visits and lab tests, the cost to transition averages about $14,000 over a two year transition period. (After completion of surgery, ongoing costs drop dramatically to cover only a small maintenence level of hormones.)

Transsexual women undergo penectomy and vaginaplasty. This procedure usually costs from $10,000 to $15,000.


..unless we're talking about different operations idk

[C_Bino]

One thing I remember from one of my sociology classes was that people had to be approved for these surgeries (at least in Canada I believe). They were to express why they wanted the change and mentally evaluated to determine if they were in fact mentally stable. There was a certain time period they had to wait to get the operation to make sure they didnt change their mind and other reasons I suppose. I took this course like 2 years ago and cant remember everything, but I remember that when we talked about gender roles in society.

[Bojangles69]

Interesting indeed. I really dont know my stance to be quite honest. Sure I am accepting of anyone, but I am with you Bo, kinda of on the fence.

Cool thread.

Yeh it really got me thinking to the point where I was like "I gotta make a thread about this cuz I can't conclude a damn thing alone". Raises a lot of thoughts if anything.

[Bojangles69]

One thing I remember from one of my sociology classes was that people had to be approved for these surgeries (at least in Canada I believe). They were to express why they wanted the change and mentally evaluated to determine if they were in fact mentally stable. There was a certain time period they had to wait to get the operation to make sure they didnt change their mind and other reasons I suppose. I took this course like 2 years ago and cant remember everything, but I remember that when we talked about gender roles in society.

YES! You see now you even bring up a crazier point and Im not sure if you noticed it.
These people have to go through a "clearance process" to make sure they're mentally stable to get the surgery. But if by DSM definition, wanting to be another gender is considered a mental disorder and you go to a doc and tell him you want your penis chopped off and turned to a vagina, theres still like a loop in the system where society makes this possible even though professionals have books that say by nature, if your transgender, you HAVE a MENTAL DISORDER.. but they still are getting their surgeries. So confusing.

Wouldnt this be like a schizo telling a doctor he wants wings surgically impanted to his back so he can fly so than they give him a test and say "ohh he appears stable enough to get the wings so let give'em to him"

I know the context is a bit extreme but concepts are similar.

[Coop77]

ABC News did a show about transgender kids a few weeks ago. There were kids on there that had been that way since they could talk. It was pretty evident that their brains were like that from birth. It may be a "mental disorder" but it looks like one you're born with to me.

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=3072518&page=1

[Bojangles69]

Ok a rerun is starting right now on MSNBC, 1 oclock am NJ time.

[Carlos_E]

Ok, well maybe wanting to have your dick chopped off isn't a mental disorder...

...pause for contemplation...

but every one I have seen is a mess on so many levels. Like Tock said, they've got major mental issues perhaps as a result of their getting their dicks chopped off.

That is not what Tock said.

It used to be that the only gay people that shrinks knew, and based their professional opinions on, were their screwed-up patients.

My guess is that eventually, shrinks will find a number of psychologically healthy transgender people and will adjust their professional opinions accordingly. Meanwhile, it won't be difficult to find transgender folks living under stress and harrassment, which usually creates other illnesses.

He's saying the harassment transgender people receive from others is what causes some form of mental illnesses.

[Tapout]

homosexuality is against the "normal" order of nature as male and female need to be together to procreate which is our "reason" of being here(to somes beliefs)---also it is against the Bible and Christian religion
now that being said I am unsure if it is a sickness or mental illness--does one just wake up someday and decide to be gay or change their sex --or is it something that is in the front of their mind or back burner through their life.. I have seen many childern that act feminine or tomboyish and you just know they will grow up to be gay--and we are usually right on our guess.--now does this make it a mental illness or something genetic? Is it how they were raised?Is it due to a traumatic incident in their life?Or is it just how they feel or want and able to due as we have free will and are able to do the things we want.
I personally an not gay and am disgusted by the thought of two guys together--but do like the thought of two women together(I know a double standered) guys just want to ball something and if you put a hole in a wall someday some guy will hit it but women together is for feeling and different(I know double standered again)
one thing I do believe,I am not sure if it is a mental illness but I am sure that it can cause a mental illness as someone who is transgendered will go through alot of emotional ups and downs trying to find who they are and being accepted by society and their families. also many kids who were molested grow up to have some of these situations and may be a type of mental illness due to the traumatic event

[Bojangles69]

homosexuality is against the "normal" order of nature as male and female need to be together to procreate which is our "reason" of being here(to somes beliefs)---also it is against the Bible and Christian religion
now that being said I am unsure if it is a sickness or mental illness--does one just wake up someday and decide to be gay or change their sex --or is it something that is in the front of their mind or back burner through their life.. I have seen many childern that act feminine or tomboyish and you just know they will grow up to be gay--and we are usually right on our guess.--now does this make it a mental illness or something genetic? Is it how they were raised?Is it due to a traumatic incident in their life?Or is it just how they feel or want and able to due as we have free will and are able to do the things we want.
I personally an not gay and am disgusted by the thought of two guys together--but do like the thought of two women together(I know a double standered) guys just want to ball something and if you put a hole in a wall someday some guy will hit it but women together is for feeling and different(I know double standered again)
one thing I do believe,I am not sure if it is a mental illness but I am sure that it can cause a mental illness as someone who is transgendered will go through alot of emotional ups and downs trying to find who they are and being accepted by society and their families. also many kids who were molested grow up to have some of these situations and may be a type of mental illness due to the traumatic event

Yeh see if REALLY is confusing when you get down to it. Like I know when I was younger I use to look in the mirror and think like "dayamm if I was a girl I would be one sexy ass bitch", I may have even had puberty or hormonal driven fantasies about what it would like to be a women, but I still think thats all normal.
I just can't grasp how someone develops such an intense need to change thier sex because they are literally THAT uncomfortable with the gender they are. Are they selfish? Are they so insecure about who they are and thier own identity that thier solution becomes *change what you are under any circumstances*? It really is weird, I can see how you can be born with an attraction to the same sex or both sexes.. but to be born a guy and FEEL like "inside you're really a woman", I'm just not sure if thats something professionals and therapists should tolerate and advocate as normal behavoir because it really is that extreme.
Still on the fence about this.

[Carlos_E]

homosexuality is against the "normal" order of nature as male and female need to be together to procreate which is our "reason" of being here(to somes beliefs)---also it is against the Bible and Christian religion
now that being said I am unsure if it is a sickness or mental illness--does one just wake up someday and decide to be gay or change their sex --or is it something that is in the front of their mind or back burner through their life.. I have seen many childern that act feminine or tomboyish and you just know they will grow up to be gay--and we are usually right on our guess.--now does this make it a mental illness or something genetic? Is it how they were raised?Is it due to a traumatic incident in their life?Or is it just how they feel or want and able to due as we have free will and are able to do the things we want.
I personally an not gay and am disgusted by the thought of two guys together--but do like the thought of two women together(I know a double standered) guys just want to ball something and if you put a hole in a wall someday some guy will hit it but women together is for feeling and different(I know double standered again)
one thing I do believe,I am not sure if it is a mental illness but I am sure that it can cause a mental illness as someone who is transgendered will go through alot of emotional ups and downs trying to find who they are and being accepted by society and their families. also many kids who were molested grow up to have some of these situations and may be a type of mental illness due to the traumatic event

You asked a few questions a gay person can answer. No, I am not feminine. No, I did not wake up one day and decide I want to be gay. No, I have not been molested or had a traumatic life experience. You are straight. Was there a pivotal moment in your life when you decided to be straight? For me, I am gay, always have been. It's just how it is.

I really don't know when it comes to transgender people. I can't wrap my head around the concept. The thought of cutting off my dick? Hell no!!! I am a man. It's a part of me and I would not be "me" without it.

[Bojangles69]

You asked a few questions a gay person can answer. No, I am not feminine. No, I did not wake up one day and decide I want to be gay. No, I have not been molested or had a traumatic life experience. You are straight. Was there a pivotal moment in your life when you decided to be straight? For me, I am gay, always have been. It's just how it is.

I really don't know when it comes to transgender people. I can't wrap my head around the concept. The thought of cutting off my dick? Hell no!!! I am a man. It's a part of me and I would not be "me" without it.

Interesting I was actually looking for some feedback from you cuz you always seem to be very confident in your opinions.
It seems like your post leans implicitly more towards the idea of it being a "disorder". Or maybe I'm just projecting again. But yeh the basic thought of cutting my dick off to become someone else, someone of another gender, seems to reek with conflict/chaos/and disorder. But I'm still remaining open to the fact that these people can easily be 100% sane, productive, and normal human beings.. even if what they do doesnt make sense. Idk, the more I think about it the more confused I get.

[ginkobulloba]

That is not what Tock said.

He's saying the harassment transgender people receive from others is what causes some form of mental illnesses.

Yeah, well if their dick's were still attached, then the harassment generally ceases to exist. So, I stand by what I said dude.

[Carlos_E]

Yeah, well if their dick's were still attached, then the harassment generally ceases to exist. So, I stand by what I said dude.

You worded your statement as if having a sex change causes mental disorders. Now you are blaming them for the way others treat them. That's logical. If a person is gay bashed I guess you would say don't be gay, you wouldn't get bashed.

[G-1000]

A few years back i knew a Transsexual-Transgender. I have spoke to her about why she wanted to be a female over a man. The answer was simple. She felt from day one she should have been born a woman. She stated that she never felt like a boy when younger or like a man when she grew up. Her mental state was of a female even as a small child.

As she got older into her teen years is when she started getting harassment from pears. She then tried to fit in as a male and do male things. She also tried to have relations with females. This is where most of her traumatic life experience took place. She had a very hard time with people not accepting her.

So as she grew old enough she wanted to become a full female. She had to speak with many shrinks before they would perform the operation. After 4 years the states came to the conclusion that he was in fact a female in a males body. The state of New York paid for her full sex change.

She also went about adopting a baby. Once again she was examined to make sure she was fit to be a mother. The state found no mental health problems and awarded her a child.

If you like I can find out the name of her book she wrote and send you the site.

[Tapout]

it is all a confusing though that I try not to think about too often as it dont apply to me--I have alot of other things to worry about that do
as far as gsxxr's story--that was interseting maybe some people are born in a man/women body and dont have the dna/genes/or gene modifiers that they are naturally supposed to have to make that person realize or what to be the sex they were born as--is that a mental illness or a genitic change--I lean more toward the genetic alteration
as far as Carlos's answers---I would have never know he was gay and does that make him wrong or a bad person--no I dont belive so (as I stated earlier according to the Bible it is but that is not my place to judge) I'm sure all of us has had friends who were gay--my old work partner was and he was a very good and ***endable person who I trusted much--and I considered a good friend. Do I think he had a mental problem--no,do I think that is was an addiction--no, it was just simply his choice(he had no life turning experiences as a child that I know of --and some drs are always quick to say anything that is ordainded wrong or bad in a adults life is a result of a childhood experience)do I belive this--no. It was just that males turned him on sexually and not women I have no idea why that was nor did he--we just agreed that I would not talk about what me and the girlfriend did and he would not tell me what he and the boyfriend did

one question I have though is this
some men are turned on by women and considered normal
some men are turned on by men and is being more acceptable in society now and of course opposite of both statements above
some people want a sex change believing they were supposed to be born as the other sex as it was a mistake of nature--and it to is being more acceptable
my question is this--pedophiles are reguarded as sick people with major mental problems as they are turned on by childern(in my opinion that is sick and wrong) but in looking at other things and how homosexuals are turned on by same sex and transgenders want sex changes--it is pedophiles fault they are turned on by childern or is it also not their fault and it is a mental illness or disorder?
by asking this I am not meaning to offend any transgender or homosexual but simply stating that according to society homosexulity and transgender is not "normal" neither is pedophiles who cant help their addiction to childern--this also stated that I believe any adult who hurts a child should be casterated and bleed to death --but is it their fault,a choice or a mental illness?

[Bojangles69]

my question is this--pedophiles are reguarded as sick people with major mental problems as they are turned on by childern(in my opinion that is sick and wrong) but in looking at other things and how homosexuals are turned on by same sex and transgenders want sex changes--it is pedophiles fault they are turned on by childern or is it also not their fault and it is a mental illness or disorder?
by asking this I am not meaning to offend any transgender or homosexual but simply stating that according to society homosexulity and transgender is not "normal" neither is pedophiles who cant help their addiction to childern--this also stated that I believe any adult who hurts a child should be casterated and bleed to death --but is it their fault,a choice or a mental illness?

Wow, see now you just pushed the envelope even further and raised what to me is a perfectly logical question.
Pedophiles are probably the most extreme version this debate can touch on. They are laughed at, publically scolded and ridiculed by society.
Yet a lot of them still will carry on thier sexual prowel for youth if not yet exploited or locked up in some kind of institution.

And that is something I also am very curious about. I've spoken to professionals and doctors of psychology about this issue a while back. And a lot of them held the position that the fact is what truely is "normal" behavoir is not always what is dictated by law.
For instance, its not uncommon for a girl to go through puberty and biologically be ready for sex at 15. Back in the day, men having sensed the women has been declared "ready to replicate" by natures own oncalling, they would engage in sexual intercourse and thier was no repercussions for it. (I'm talking about before the greek and roman era's here even though I'm sure it happened a great deal then too)
So now you have a weird case. You have nature declaring women as biologically "ready for sex" and you have society saying *psychologically they are NOT. Who is really right? Society or Nature? I'm sorry but nature is a very powerful force to argue with.

Than you have the case of men (or women) being attracted to pre-pubescent children. In this case nature nor society has declared these children ready for sex. So now do we say some sort of genetic alteration can cause men to be sexually attracted to girls who are yet to undergo sexual maturation? I dont know about that.
I prefer to believe its a mental sickness, for the sake of making myself feel better and like I understand the world.. but is that what is true? In my mind its absolutely reprehensible to be attracted to a child in such a manner, and the question I ask is even if there was some sort of genetic flaw to provoke this behavoir, what advantage is nature gaining from this? NONE. What is nature gaining from creating transgender genes? Nothing.. or even homosexual genes.. I can't think of one. I'm not putting all these in the same boat in any way.
People argue that genetic aberations and anamolies hold not an advantage for nature but a way that nature corrects past defects in evolution and producing "defective genes" (not my term, Im simply citing other peoples views on this) is the only way it can balance out these defects in evolution. I'm not going to get to deep into it because honestly I can't remember the exact concept the author/s were trying to prove but that was the basic gist of it.
So do we blame nature for everything than? Or is this a way of shifting responsibility from where it truley belongs?.. in the minds of the people who engage in this behavoir. I don't know. I'm not god, but something about my intuition says ok nature may have created a certain type of biological predisposition but it still take somebodies MIND to carry out a BEHAVOIR. I think the more we lean towards genes being responsible the less we hold the individuals themselves responsible for thier actions.
So Im going to take the position that this IS a mental illness (pedophilia) and Im really starting to lean towards the idea that so is transgenderism. I mean my whole point is WHO THE FVCK GIVES INDIVIDUALS THE RIGHT TO ARGUE NATURE? How the hell can you say I am a man trapped in a womans body? **Nature** gave you a dick for a reason, AND a vagina, and quite frankly this whole debate is bugging me the f out now. I'm still so boggled by things like this.
I've asked my gay male friend/s what it feels like if he kisses a girl and he'll say probaly the same way it would feel like if you made out with a guy. And I'll try sooo hard to understand that but it MAKES NO SENSE.
I don't know, I really dont understand any of this shit and Im not sure Im suppose to in the first place, but as much as I try to be open minded sometimes I blame society for being the same exact way - open minded.
Our we screwing up our own evolution as a species by allowing thier behavoir? Are we placing responsiblity where it doesnt belong? On nature and not the individuals own thinking patterns/problems?
I don't know whats right or wrong, and at this point my mind doesnt care anymore.. maybe I'll be back later if I see someone raises some interesting points.

[IronReload04]

ok, I will give my opinion and I am hetero.

Transgender thoughts ARE NOT a mental disorder......I know a couple of gay men.....I believe it is purely genetic.....I believe they can not help the way they feel, that is what is natural for them....i believe that genetics got tangled up, and they dont have urges that match what they should be.....It is not a mental disorder, and it is completely reasonable desire/wish to have to change gender.




Since we are all adults here, Their is just one thing I can not comprehend about homosexuals.....I understand women wanting male roles and men wanting female roles.......I just cannot comprehend the concept of males who fill a male role being attracted to men, and women wanting a female role being attracted to women. I just cannot organize this in my head so I can comprehend and understand it.

No offense here, Nothing offensive about trying to understand, just wanted to be clear.

[xlxBigSexyxlx]

No, its not a mental disorder. Its just a matter of what they want. If thats the case, then evryone has a mental disorder of some sort.


She wants to be a he.
I wanna be a Michael Jordan
Roid users wanna get freaky big
Michael Jackson goes white.

Not mental disorders, unless it comes to that point, which Im sure it does in some cases. But Im sane. Im sure all of you, or most lol, are sane. I bet most transgenders are sane.
Except for michael jackson, lol he has lots of issues.

[thegodfather]

but is that what is true? In my mind its absolutely reprehensible to be attracted to a child in such a manner, and the question I ask is even if there was some sort of genetic flaw to provoke this behavoir, what advantage is nature gaining from this? NONE. What is nature gaining from creating transgender genes? Nothing.. or even homosexual genes.. I can't think of one. I'm not putting all these in the same boat in any way.
People argue that genetic aberations and anamolies hold not an advantage for nature but a way that nature corrects past defects in evolution and producing "defective genes" (not my term, Im simply citing other peoples views on this) is the only way it can balance out these defects in evolution. I'm not going to get to deep into it because honestly I can't remember the exact concept the author/s were trying to prove but that was the basic gist of it.

Bo, a couple of things I want to touch on...

First off, its not what nature "GAINS" from these abnormalities. As you know Bo, nature does not evolve in a "straight line." If you know anything about the evolution of humans, humans did not evovle in that typical chart where you see an ape slowly starting to walk upright. Nature evolves in JERKS..PULLS...TUGS..LEAPS...which can be followed by stagnation or hundreds of other variables. Eventually, (where we are today) the most fit organism survives. Looking back through human fossils, we see MANY different types of humans that were evolving AT THE SAME TIME PERIOD! Thats remarkable, because nature was shooting in different directions at the same time to test which organism would work the best.

Cancer is a very good example of evolution. To us, cancer is a BAD thing. However, to nature, cancer is how we evolve as organisms. If we have a GOOD mutation then the organism goes on living and NEVER KNOWS IT!.. However, when we have a BAD mutation, the cancer then takes over the organism ultimately causing it to die.

So, apply these simple principles we know about nature and its evolutionary pattern to your problem Bo... Heterosexual is the status quo of the human organism, it appears to be what nature has saught to evolve to, because as we know about nature& living organisms, they seek to do only one thing "to live" and therefore having the ability to reproduce is paramount. Now, using Heterosexual human beings as the status quo, you can accurately group all other orientations or predispositions as nature "off shooting" to try other formats. This is just a general observation, but one you should take a look at..

My closing argument. Bo, as I'm sure you have read in some Sociology books. in ANY society there will always be the accepted and unaccepted. In a theoretical 'perfect' society where no one commited crimes as we know them today and got perfect grades, people would be penalized to 10-25 year jail sentences for getting a "B" on their report card, or for spitting on the sidewalk (look at Singapore). So as far as societal morals go, they are all relative to the status quo accepted behaviors within that culture...

[spywizard]

let me pose a question.. people that have a tendency towards suicide, to they have a mental disorder??

because more than 50% of transgender teens are...

so, if one assumes that the answer is yes, suicide is a mental disorder, then you would have to believe that homosexuality or transgender identity leading 50% of people suffering from those conditions to commit suicide is a problem.. or am i misunderstanding the information provided on this site??

http://www.unhcc.unh.edu/resources/g...btsuicide.html

[IronReload04]

accidental double post

[IronReload04]

let me pose a question.. people that have a tendency towards suicide, to they have a mental disorder??

because more than 50% of transgender teens are...

so, if one assumes that the answer is yes, suicide is a mental disorder, then you would have to believe that homosexuality or transgender identity leading 50% of people suffering from those conditions to commit suicide is a problem.. or am i misunderstanding the information provided on this site??

http://www.unhcc.unh.edu/resources/g...btsuicide.html

I think the question becomes, if society was perfectly accepting and 100 percent free of evil and hatred, would they still have the same mental probems in this case?

because imo, if this were true hypothetically, than homosexuality would be as accepting as a guy liking a girl, so I think no, they dont have these issues anymore and all would be peaceful.

But I think we know the anwer to that

[thegodfather]

I think the question becomes, if society was perfectly accepting and 100 percent free of evil and hatred, would they still have the same mental probems in this case?

because imo, if this were true hypothetically, than homosexuality would be as accepting as a guy liking a girl, so I think no, they dont have these issues anymore and all would be peaceful.

But I think we know the anwer to that

If society was as you proposed, we would never know the difference between anything. If we lived forever, lived in complete harmony, and in a eutopia, we would not be able to appreciate it for what it was, having never had any experience otherwise.

[tinyguy2]

i think homosexuality is a mental disorder. animals are not supposed to have sex with the same sex. we are here to reproduce not have buttsecks. but who cares if it is a mental disorder. anxeity is a mental disoreder who i have it **** it

[Superhuman]

After 4 years the states came to the conclusion that he was in fact a female in a males body. The state of New York paid for her full sex change.

She also went about adopting a baby. Once again she was examined to make sure she was fit to be a mother. The state found no mental health problems and awarded her a child.

Wow, to me this is wrong on so many levels...

There are forms of intense therapy, even some experimental methods, that could be used to make an individual with GID comfortable with who they are. Anorexics and Bulemics feel like they're fat... does that mean that our taxes should pay for some kinds of operation for them? No, they go to therapy and get over it. Perhaps some of you say that deep down inside they were really born as the other sex and there is no way to fix it... that still doesn't mean that tax money should pay for it - that is rediculous.

You know what... my whole life I have felt like a Minotaur trapped in a human's body (BTW THERE ARE DISORDERS WHERE PEOPLE THINK THEY ARE FVCKING ANIMALS), maybe the state could pay for me to get some horn implants, a furry coat, goat's feet, and a tail? This is such bullshit I don't think we should even entertain the idea that GID is NOT a disorder!

[Superhuman]

Was there a pivotal moment in your life when you decided to be straight? For me, I am gay, always have been. It's just how it is.

I don't think as a baby we have any sexual preference at all... I don't even remember the desire to kiss a girl for instinctual reasons until the 4th grade. I kissed a girl in kindergarten, but that was ONLY because I saw 2 people kissing on TV the same day. I believe there is a certain point in development where you "discover" the opposite sex (or in your case the same sex).

I think that we are influenced to have sexual desire by our environment (parents, media, friends). There was a boy who was raised in the wild by animals... when he came back he didn't know what to do with a female, he had no desire for sex because his environment didn't teach him that... which leads me to believe sexual preference is a learned trait. Was I born liking certain foods? I don't think so... I think it was the way I was raised, specific experiences I had as a very young boy that led me to develop the taste I have.

It has been understood for some time that the way your parents raise you in the first 5 or so years of your life will nearly fully determine what you will be like as an adult.

[Superhuman]

my question is this--pedophiles are reguarded as sick people with major mental problems as they are turned on by childern(in my opinion that is sick and wrong) but in looking at other things and how homosexuals are turned on by same sex and transgenders want sex changes--it is pedophiles fault they are turned on by childern or is it also not their fault and it is a mental illness or disorder?

This is an excellent example and I have used it many times. Almost all pedophiles say that they're sexual preference came about the same way in which Carlos' homosexuality did... and I will quote Carlos again, "No, I did not wake up one day and decide I want to be gay. No, I have not been molested or had a traumatic life experience... For me, I am gay, always have been. It's just how it is."

Every pedophile I have seen interviewed or read a transcript of their interview, has said that they were born that way and that they have tried to supress they're feelings for children in fear of harassment and incarcaration but failed. Most gay people I have spoken with have had a similar experience, saying that they were born like that and they have tried to fight it their whole life in fear of being persecuted for it. Many gay men and women I know (including withing my family) have dated, even married the opposite sex in an attempt to rid themselves of the gay feelings and, of course, failed. Many pedolphiles are married with children but have, like the homosexuals, failed to get rid of their feelings.


Please tell me why it's acceptable then to be gay but not to be a pedophile... and please give me a reason other than "being gay doesn't hurt anybody but being a pedophile does"

[Superhuman]

well it made sense some people are born alchoholics why not gay? now im not saying they were all born gay maybe it works along the same lines as addiction were all born with it but with some people it gets triggered and with some it lies dormant

I don't believe that anybody is born an alcoholic... in 99% of cases of alcoholism, the alcoholic has had a traumatic event in his or her life, had alocholic family members growing up, or was brought into that lifestyle by friends. It is NOT because they were born that way.

They did a study of people who had been adopted. The conclusion they came to was that adopted children whose genetic parents were alcoholics were more likely to become alcoholics themselves than children whose parents weren't alcoholics. They actually found that adopted children are less likely to become alcoholics than children who haven't been adopted