Question for non-US members. Healthcare in your country

**Coop77** · 07-10-2007, 11:41 PM

I saw the documentary Sicko about how f*%ed up the US for-profit healthcare system is. It argues for a system of free universal health care similar to that of the UK and France.

The movie is very one sided and full of Michael Moore's political BS, but it made a good argument. I'd like to hear the opinions of members in other countries about universal health care in your country.

Are you satisfied with the quality of free care?
Would you prefer a private system like the US if it meant lower taxes?
Please share any horror stories, etc

**Polska** · 07-11-2007, 12:21 AM

You are paying for it either way - be it by increased taxes or insurance premiums. It's pretty good here in Canada, I can't complain. Was in a pretty bad motorcycle wreck three years ago and all I had to pay for was the ambulance ride.

**brewerpi** · 07-11-2007, 03:03 AM

I spent over 20 years in the Army, where health care is "free", and I have to say that it seems like many people abuse anything that is "free". The minute you tell a new Army wife that she can take her children free of charge to the post clinic or hospital, she's there twice a week for every runny nose and sore throat.
I also think that if you are going to put everyone in to one system, paid for by the government then you are inviting "Dr. Big Brother" right up your ass. Afterall if Uncle Sam is paying for your health care costs- then he can tell what to eat, not to drink or smoke and why not daily PT for everyone?
Michael Moore's fat ass should be careful what he wishes for.

**scaramouche** · 07-11-2007, 03:25 AM

ive not see the documentary so i cant comment on that,living in the uk ive had free health care all my life ive no idea what it would be like otherwise,ive met some americans who told me it took 10 yrs to finish paying the maternity ward bills for 3 kids,allow me to give u some statistics on one area of the nhs,it cost the nhs approx 1.3bn per year to treat smoking related illnesses while the total tax revenue on tabacco products is 14bn per year,i dont have the alchol related stats to hand but im sure theyre just as prifitable to the govt,so its a matter of simple economics the nhs pays for itself,i dont drinik or smoke but everytime i get ill i see a doctor or if i have an accident i go to a&e,yeh we have higher taxes but its just the way it is for us brits,im not complaining

**Bruce000** · 07-11-2007, 03:55 AM

Our Government hospitals are equal to abbatoirs! The majority of the doctors cant even speak English. They charge according to your salary/income per month. But you can go in and tell them your unemployed and they wouldn't charge you sh!t. Private medical aids are exorbitant here. Not rally worth it. My wife has gone on to a Hospital plan and that cost her about R800 a month, regardless of what she earns. How does the system work in US?

***xxx*** · 07-11-2007, 06:04 AM

Germany has a pretty good universal healthcare, though we have problems with our pharmaceuticals spendings too.

our system surely needs some adjustments, but I m pretty glad we have a universal coverage. ca. 90% of the Germans are covered by the "gesetzliche krankenkasse" and 10% by the "private krankenkasse" for ppl who earn more than 64.800$ per year or self-employed. the private healthcare is cheaper when you are young and healthy, but gets very expensive when u get old - but it provides the better care. basically the private health insurance pays the best available treatments, drugs etc. u can choose doctors, hospitals etc.

so, like I said: I m glad we don t have your HI....

**Huckster** · 07-11-2007, 11:08 AM

I'm in the U.S. so not your intended respondent, but... I thought about this I pay such and such out of my paycheck for health insurance. So what if that went to the gov't to run universal healthcare. Cool idea I thought, not much different in pay check since I'm paying for insurance anyway.

But then think about the gov't running things, and their 'effiency' in the way they do things. Have you been to a DMV? Have you applied for a passport lately (they told me it takes 12 weeks, it's been 14 now and still waiting)? Have you been involved in a court case? Have a relative deal w/Soc. Security? 'nough said.

Some states have begun to privatize their DMV's.
Many American's want privitized Soc. Security.

--why??? Cause the gov't screws up anything they put their hand on.
Why go a step backwards and federalize medicine? They can't even figure out a prescription drug plan. How would they handle medical care?

**kfrost06** · 07-11-2007, 11:34 AM

Originally Posted by Huckster

I'm in the U.S. so not your intended respondent, but... I thought about this I pay such and such out of my paycheck for health insurance. So what if that went to the gov't to run universal healthcare. Cool idea I thought, not much different in pay check since I'm paying for insurance anyway.

But then think about the gov't running things, and their 'effiency' in the way they do things. Have you been to a DMV? Have you applied for a passport lately (they told me it takes 12 weeks, it's been 14 now and still waiting)? Have you been involved in a court case? Have a relative deal w/Soc. Security? 'nough said.

Some states have begun to privatize their DMV's.
Many American's want privitized Soc. Security.

--why??? Cause the gov't screws up anything they put their hand on.
Why go a step backwards and federalize medicine? They can't even figure out a prescription drug plan. How would they handle medical care?

Great post! sad but soo true.

**kfrost06** · 07-11-2007, 11:36 AM

In America and need health care? Get a job and be a productive member of society instead of a parasite.

**scaramouche** · 07-11-2007, 03:43 PM

Originally Posted by kfrost06

In America and need health care? Get a job and be a productive member of society instead of a parasite.

well thats one way of dealing with it, but what about disabled ppl or stupid ppl who can only get low paid work do they deserve to suffer or die because they cant afford healthcare

**K.Biz** · 07-11-2007, 03:51 PM

I saw the movie as well and it really does show how BAD our healthcare system is. At least in other countrys like canada, france, germany and most of europe gets free national health care. but it doesnt stop there

In the U.S. doctors are paid off by insurance companies to tell patients they dont need care. the more a health care provider can decline the more prophit goes into the hands of the insurance companies.

HMO's are a joke and private healthcare was thought up by freakin Nixon who made bank off the idea. its all a big f*ckin scam to make money.

I have a link to the full movie go watch it!, It might be 1 sided, but a 1 sided as it might be its the full complete truth. and micheal moore might be an ass of a person but hes freakin right in this movie.

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?doc...rch&plindex=84

**cookiemonstR** · 07-11-2007, 03:57 PM

I live in Canada, and we have free universal health care. Its great not to have to worry about it. We have enough worries in life w/o phenomenal health care costs, paying for drugs are bad enough IMO. Scares me to think of the people who live in the states who can't pay for Health Care. We have longer waits sometimes, but its a price we gladly pay.

**kfrost06** · 07-11-2007, 04:04 PM

Originally Posted by scaramouche

well thats one way of dealing with it, but what about disabled ppl or stupid ppl who can only get low paid work do they deserve to suffer or die because they cant afford healthcare

Of course they do not deserve to die and they are covered by social security, madicare and madicade as well as disability and the countless other social programs we have.

**kfrost06** · 07-11-2007, 04:20 PM

Originally Posted by cookiemonstR

I live in Canada, and we have free universal health care. Its great not to have to worry about it. We have enough worries in life w/o phenomenal health care costs, paying for drugs are bad enough IMO. Scares me to think of the people who live in the states who can't pay for Health Care. We have longer waits sometimes, but its a price we gladly pay.

People always like to bring up the fact that Canada has universal health care

Let's deal with FACTS! The Candian government pays $0 for prescription drug costs, dental care and Emergency Medical Services.

The Canadian Government has outlawed medical care if the service is paid for by private individual funds. If you have insurance the governemnt will not pay at all, so why bother getting insurance when you can milk the government(the tax payers).

Non-emergency illnesses such as cancer cannot pay out of pocket for time-sensitive surgeries and must wait, sometimes until the cancer has reached a stage of inoperability. Makes lots of sense

http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/2006/...stem-continues

The wait times to get into hospitals can span weeks or months, including for simple procedures. According to the Fraser Institute, treatment time from initial referral by a GP through consultation with a specialist to final treatment, across all specialties and all procedures (emergency, non-urgent, and elective), averaged 17.7 weeks.

Let's repeat that, 17.7 weeks wait time for treatment!!!

Canada spends 9.9% of GDP on health care, the USA spends 15.2%

Canada has a shortage of doctors and some areas like Quebec have fewer then other areas like Alberta due to lower salaries.

Maybe thats why the best doctors in the world come to the USA! Maybe thats why all the latest greatest drugs are developed here in the USA!

***xxx*** · 07-12-2007, 02:07 AM

Originally Posted by kfrost06

In America and need health care? Get a job and be a productive member of society instead of a parasite.

it has nothing to do with being a parasite. u will always have indivudals like that in ANY system, but I think it has to do with humanity and collectivism to grant ppl who can t pay for it basic healthcare or food or shelter.

it just shows different the mindsets of europeans and americans are....

**Fat Guy** · 07-12-2007, 02:37 AM

This is a great thread! and of course I am all for universal health care.

**scaramouche** · 07-12-2007, 03:01 AM

Originally Posted by K.Biz

I saw the movie as well and it really does show how BAD our healthcare system is. At least in other countrys like canada, france, germany and most of europe gets free national health care. but it doesnt stop there

In the U.S. doctors are paid off by insurance companies to tell patients they dont need care. the more a health care provider can decline the more prophit goes into the hands of the insurance companies.

HMO's are a joke and private healthcare was thought up by freakin Nixon who made bank off the idea. its all a big f*ckin scam to make money.

I have a link to the full movie go watch it!, It might be 1 sided, but a 1 sided as it might be its the full complete truth. and micheal moore might be an ass of a person but hes freakin right in this movie.

http://video.google.ca/videoplay?doc...rch&plindex=84

corruption is a terrible thing,u expect it in some countries but not a so called world leader like the usa

**brewerpi** · 07-12-2007, 03:48 AM

Another area that needs to be addressed when it comes to the cost of healthcare are the millions of lawsuits that add billions to the cost of everything, especially healthcare costs. If you're looking for parasites look no further than the lawyers...

**kfrost06** · 07-12-2007, 08:30 AM

Originally Posted by brewerpi

Another area that needs to be addressed when it comes to the cost of healthcare are the millions of lawsuits that add billions to the cost of everything, especially healthcare costs. If you're looking for parasites look no further than the lawyers...

Very true!

**kfrost06** · 07-12-2007, 08:39 AM

Originally Posted by ***xxx***

it has nothing to do with being a parasite. u will always have indivudals like that in ANY system, but I think it has to do with humanity and collectivism to grant ppl who can t pay for it basic healthcare or food or shelter.

it just shows different the mindsets of europeans and americans are....

Agreed, and so does the maximum 35-hour work week, with no paid overtime allowed, those that work more than 35 hours a week, get more time off, on top of the five weeks mandatory vacation and of course there are another dozen public holidays. In America we believe in working towards a better future through hard work, in Europe you believe in entitlement, you are owed everything. Maybe thats why America is the world leader in everything and the rest of the world will have to be stuck in the viewers seat hating us.

"Americans, I think, believe more in future than French people... We think that the future will be worse than now, so we don’t have any reason to work."
Corinne Maier, author of the bestseller "Bonjour, Laziness"

***xxx*** · 07-12-2007, 08:43 AM

Originally Posted by kfrost06

Agreed, and so does the maximum 35-hour work week, with no paid overtime allowed, those that work more than 35 hours a week, get more time off, on top of the five weeks mandatory vacation and of course there are another dozen public holidays. In America we believe in working towards a better future through hard work, in Europe you believe in entitlement, you are owed everything. Maybe thats why America is the world leader in everything and the rest of the world will have to be stuck in the viewers seat hating us.

"Americans, I think, believe more in future than French people... We think that the future will be worse than now, so we don’t have any reason to work."
Corinne Maier, author of the bestseller "Bonjour, Laziness"

LOL yeah especially in technical prodcuts like cars, production machines, production robots, chemicals etc.

sorry, but that is Germany

tell me again, why the best engineers in the world are German and not American...and no, it has nothing to do with our welfare system.

your system rewards achievements better than ours - true. but our system is social and much more well balanced.

**K.Biz** · 07-12-2007, 08:44 AM

Its true Germany dominates us in vehicles. where woudl i be without my audi? haha. but robots and things like that i dunno, we have M.I.T. which is the leading robot researchers in the world.

***xxx*** · 07-12-2007, 08:47 AM

Originally Posted by K.Biz

Its true Germany dominates us in vehicles. where woudl i be without my audi? haha. but robots and things like that i dunno, we have M.I.T. which is the leading robot researchers in the world.

I can gladly tell u, cause 90% of all production robots worldwide in the automobile sector come from one company in Germany I used to work for

if u wanna check the out http://www.nothelfer.com/

MIT is one thing - developing and commercializing hight tech products another...

**kfrost06** · 07-12-2007, 08:47 AM

Originally Posted by ***xxx***

LOL yeah especially in technical prodcuts like cars, production machines, production robots, chemicals etc.

sorry, but that is Germany

tell me again, why the best engineers in the world are German and not American...and no, it has nothing to do with our welfare system.

your system rewards achievements better than ours - true. but our system is social and much more well balanced.

umm can you verify any of that? I am trying to think the last time germany sent someone to space, our space shuttle just landed last week, yours?

**kfrost06** · 07-12-2007, 08:49 AM

Merck, one of the largest pharmaceutical companies ever started in Germany by Germans but it's here now, why?

**kfrost06** · 07-12-2007, 08:52 AM

TOKYO — Toyota Motor Corp. became the world's top auto seller in the first three months of the year, passing rival General Motors Corp. for the first time, the Japanese automaker said Tuesday.

Toyota sold 2.348 million vehicles worldwide in the January-March quarter, company spokesman Satoshi Yamaguchi said, surpassing the 2.26 million vehicles that GM said it sold during the same period.

The results mark the first time Toyota has beat GM in global sales on a quarterly basis, he said.

While the figures represent only quarterly sales results, they foreshadow a tough challenge for GM as it fights to hold onto its title as world's top automaker — a claim usually staked on annual production figures.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,267980,00.html

USA had the top 3 auto makers in the world but our Unions are destoying the companies and now Toyota is number one while we have 2,3,and 4 Germany is not even in the top 5! Stop spreading misinformation.

***xxx*** · 07-12-2007, 08:52 AM

Originally Posted by kfrost06

umm can you verify any of that? I am trying to think the last time germany sent someone to space, are space shuttle just landed last week, yours?

we don t fund space shuttles or anything like that. sorry, this is an ignorant statement. we are a small country compared to yours (about the size of NY state).

if u would work in a technical sector u d know that Germany is worldwide leader in production machines and robot. go check the export summs...

oh yeah: your precious space program: who did you get from Germany after WW2 to get a space programm at all?

***xxx*** · 07-12-2007, 08:54 AM

Originally Posted by kfrost06

TOKYO — Toyota Motor Corp. became the world's top auto seller in the first three months of the year, passing rival General Motors Corp. for the first time, the Japanese automaker said Tuesday.

Toyota sold 2.348 million vehicles worldwide in the January-March quarter, company spokesman Satoshi Yamaguchi said, surpassing the 2.26 million vehicles that GM said it sold during the same period.

The results mark the first time Toyota has beat GM in global sales on a quarterly basis, he said.

While the figures represent only quarterly sales results, they foreshadow a tough challenge for GM as it fights to hold onto its title as world's top automaker — a claim usually staked on annual production figures.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,267980,00.html

USA had the top 3 auto makers in the world but our Unions are destoying the companies and now Toyota is number one while we have 2,3,and 4 Germany is not even in the top 5! Stop spreading misinformation.

we re not talking selling - we talk technology. stop talking bs. and pls don t ompare your inferior cars with japanese or german cars

***xxx*** · 07-12-2007, 08:55 AM

Originally Posted by kfrost06

Merck, one of the largest pharmaceutical companies ever started in Germany by Germans but it's here now, why?

because the name was stolen after WW2 (like Bayer - we bought the name rights back two times after the wars - from you!). READ at google! and the original Merck Germany still exists... the difference is MERCK SHARP DOME and MERCK GERMANY. omg you are really ignorant...

**kfrost06** · 07-12-2007, 08:57 AM

Originally Posted by ***xxx***

LOL yeah especially in technical prodcuts like cars, production machines, production robots, chemicals etc.

sorry, but that is Germany

tell me again, why the best engineers in the world are German and not American...and no, it has nothing to do with our welfare system.

your system rewards achievements better than ours - true. but our system is social and much more well balanced.

wrong on all accounts,

"Not much surprise to the top three in C&EN's survey of the global Top 50 chemical companies this year: For the second year running, it was Dow Chemical, BASF, and DuPont, the trio that for four years has dominated this magazine's rankings of the world's top companies."

http://pubs.acs.org/cen/coverstory/8...obaltop50.html

***xxx*** · 07-12-2007, 09:02 AM

German engineering stays the national champion
Germany's engineering industry continues to be the world's number one exporter of machinery and industrial plant, with the Middle East at top market.

According to the VDMA, Germany is the market leader in 21 out 31 branches of the world's engineering industry. In the power systems and engines sector, Germany's export volume in 2004 was EUR7.3billion, which represents one quarter of the world market total.

http://www.ameinfo.com/64678.html

**kfrost06** · 07-12-2007, 09:16 AM

Originally Posted by ***xxx***

we don t fund space shuttles or anything like that. sorry, this is an ignorant statement. we are a small country compared to yours (about the size of NY state).

O.K. I am replying to your post where you said you were the world leader in autos, chemicals, etc. Your not! I am in no way saying Germany or Germans are inferior, they are not. I am replying to your factually incorrect statement. Now you say Germany can't compete because of it's size, will Japan takes a different view, they can and have surpased us and they are much smaller, why? they have a better work ethic. For the record, German and Japanese cars are superoir to USA cars, no doubt. I am stating that when workers are rewarded for working they work harder, when you reward people for not working, they don't work. Sad but true. Yes, Germany WAS the world leader in rocket technology with the likes of Wernher Magnus Maximilian Freiherr von Braun, but he fled to the USA. (yes, he had to pick the US or USSR).

Bottomline, cummunism failed, socialism failed why keep re-inventing it and forcing it on people? Reward work, let the non-workers suffer for their laziness, you may think that sounds cruel. I think making the workers work so the lazy can continue to be lazy sounds cruel.

**kfrost06** · 07-12-2007, 09:37 AM

Originally Posted by ***xxx***

we don t fund space shuttles or anything like that. sorry, this is an ignorant statement. we are a small country compared to yours (about the size of NY state).

You know since everything you have posted was wrong I checked out this statement too. What do you know, it's WRONG! NY state: 54, 475 squre miles Germany: 137, 826 square miles. Not even close, over 2.5 times bigger. Do you just make this stuff up as your typing? Typical liberal, lives in a fantasy world. Go ahead tell me how that is unimportant and irrelevant. Then why did YOU mention it? If you want to debate with me you need to back your statements up.

**Logan13** · 07-12-2007, 10:42 AM

Originally Posted by scaramouche

well thats one way of dealing with it, but what about disabled ppl or stupid ppl who can only get low paid work do they deserve to suffer or die because they cant afford healthcare

in the US, there are many charitable organizations as well as gov't programs to help such people.

**Logan13** · 07-12-2007, 10:46 AM

Originally Posted by ***xxx***

we don t fund space shuttles or anything like that. sorry, this is an ignorant statement. we are a small country compared to yours (about the size of NY state).

if u would work in a technical sector u d know that Germany is worldwide leader in production machines and robot. go check the export summs...

oh yeah: your precious space program: who did you get from Germany after WW2 to get a space programm at all?

Developing an efficient means of the mass killing of human beings was a great scientific achievement........The US is composed of people from all nationalities. We are comparing countries here, not nationalities.

**Logan13** · 07-12-2007, 10:50 AM

Originally Posted by ***xxx***

German engineering stays the national champion
Germany's engineering industry continues to be the world's number one exporter of machinery and industrial plant, with the Middle East at top market.

According to the VDMA, Germany is the market leader in 21 out 31 branches of the world's engineering industry. In the power systems and engines sector, Germany's export volume in 2004 was EUR7.3billion, which represents one quarter of the world market total.

http://www.ameinfo.com/64678.html

Regardless xxx, There are not thousands of Americans seeking a better life in Germany today, why do you think that is?........

**scriptfactory** · 07-12-2007, 11:11 AM

Originally Posted by Logan13

Regardless xxx, There are not thousands of Americans seeking a better life in Germany today, why do you think that is?........

Because they don't know how good it is here! LOL!

I'm an American and I'll tell you what... my sons have been in the hospital a few times and I don't want to even THINK about how much that would have cost me in the US... Gawd...

Ok, I'm paying for it but who cares. I mean, the tax rates are high but it is worth it in the long run. You don't see people that go bankrupt because they can't pay for hospital bills. You don't see bums running around town. My kids can go to college if they are smart enough and have the desire to succeed. It's great!

The charitable organizations in the US are a joke. They just don't work. I bet that almost everyone who talks crap about socialism never lived in a country that has more socialistic ideals. Socialistic ideals are still alive and they are working quite well in many countries.

In 1967 Martin Luther King Jr. wrote:

...And one day we must ask the question, Why are there forty million poor people in America? And when you begin to ask that question, you are raising questions about the economic system, about a broader distribution of wealth. When you ask that question, you begin to question the capitalistic economy. And I'm simply saying that more and more, we've got to begin to ask questions about the whole society...

Too bad, 40 years later, we are in an even worse situation and the vast majority of individuals in the US don't even give a damn. I find that very, very sad.

**kfrost06** · 07-12-2007, 11:24 AM

Only in America are poor people obese and have drug habits, to me thats not the definition of poor but the definition of Darwinism. No one starves to death here, no emergency room can or is allowed to turn someone down in need of emergency care because of lack of insurance.

Charity here is a joke? Where do you volunteer? Maybe you should do instead of telling others to do for you.

I've been to the hospital many times too, I didn't have to wait 17.7 weeks for treatment either like they do in Canada. I have a job and insurance so paying was not a problem. Taxes are a problem.

Advice to you, move to Germany, no one is going to stop you.

**scriptfactory** · 07-12-2007, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by kfrost06

Only in America are poor people obese and have drug habits, to me thats not the definition of poor but the definition of Darwinism. No one starves to death here, no emergency room can or is allowed to turn someone down in need of emergency care because of lack of insurance.

Charity here is a joke? Where do you volunteer? Maybe you should do instead of telling others to do for you.

I've been to the hospital many times too, I didn't have to wait 17.7 weeks for treatment either like they do in Canada. I have a job and insurance so paying was not a problem. Taxes are a problem.

Advice to you, move to Germany, no one is going to stop you.

I don't volunteer but I donate to charitable organizations every month. I'm living in Germany now but I donate to a few places in the US as well as the occasional worldwide organization. The problem is, most of the charities in the US have funding issues and just don't have the impact a lot of people think they do... Don't get me wrong, they do a lot of good. There are just better ways, in my opinion, of getting things done.

I tell you what, Kfrost. The only things I miss about the US are the restaurants and my friends/family. If I could move all of them over here, I would. The social system here is working. Like it or not, it's working. You can't say that about the US.

**kfrost06** · 07-12-2007, 11:49 AM

Originally Posted by scriptfactory

I don't volunteer but I donate to charitable organizations every month. I'm living in Germany now but I donate to a few places in the US as well as the occasional worldwide organization. The problem is, most of the charities in the US have funding issues and just don't have the impact a lot of people think they do... Don't get me wrong, they do a lot of good. There are just better ways, in my opinion, of getting things done.

I tell you what, Kfrost. The only things I miss about the US are the restaurants and my friends/family. If I could move all of them over here, I would. The social system here is working. Like it or not, it's working. You can't say that about the US.

Charitible funding could be better, yes. Making the government in charge of it is not the answer they make things worse not better.

The social system here needs reform to, probably not the reform you refer to but reform nonetheless. It is abused by a few at the cost to all. Again, no one starves to death here, we are so rich you can live by eating out of trash cans and many do. If you do not like eating out of trash cans you can get a job and work for a better life. That is what makes this country so great, if you want to do better America has the oppurtunity to do so. Here, we fear big governemnt, we saw what it did to Germany.

On a side note, you do not see Americans telling the Germans how to run their health care system so why do the germans, french, canadians feel it necessary to constantly bash us? envy?