AIM conversation-Argument I had with a Psych student over steroids...

[thegodfather]

Ok...so this girl i know is a psych student..and we had a pretty heated debate over AIM because she mentioned to me she was writing a paper on steroids in sports , or some shit like that.... thought you guys might like to see it...you tell me whos the winner!

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Psych: research writing: sports focus
Godfather: i hope you mentioned...that steroids are awesome...they shouldnt be illegal....
Psych: nope
Godfather: damn
Godfather: but u do agree steroids should be legal right
Psych: i do talk about the psychological effect of steriods tho
Psych: nope
Godfather: really....i hope your citing those effects with peer reviewed information from medical journals
Godfather: and not some propagandized bullshit put out by the world anti-doping agency
Psych: i am a psych major lol
Godfather: or some other bullshit agency with a political agenda
Godfather: can u link me to ur sources?
Psych: i know how to get reliable true sources
Psych: i dont have them on thi comp
Godfather: if you want good info....look up Doctor Harrison Pope
Godfather: he's an MD and a psychologist and his research is aimed at anabolic steroids
Psych: and ..?
Godfather: and......if i can find it....he has research showing that anabolic steroids showed no significant changes in mood or behavior
Godfather: and only 8 cases of acute mania
Psych: and my research will show u suicide and depression
Godfather: lol suicide...thats a stretch
Psych: look at rob garibaldi
Godfather: and i can show you a higher correlation or incidence of suicide from people taking SSRI's
Psych: thats not what my papers on
Godfather: Rob Garbibaldis parents THINK steroids caused him to commit suicide
Godfather: until the corroner puts that down as the cause of death on his death certificate
Godfather: its irrelevant
Psych: he was seeing a psychiatrist
Godfather: maybe he was on tylenol at the time....i could just as easily say "he was taking tylenol, and he committed suicide"
Godfather: thats automatic correlation
Psych: no, he was abusing steriods and stopped them and killed himself
Godfather: ok....so he had a pre-existing condition and may have been predisposed to mental illness....he should be held accountable for chosing to alter his hormones at that time
Godfather: he obviously wasn't aware of the proper ancillary drugs to take upon cessation of steroids causing a hypogonadal conditon which led to his depression
Godfather: his fault for not researching what he was putting into his body
Godfather: not to mention that you missed the key word...he ABUSED them
Psych: i didnt miss the key term at all
Godfather: which gives no indiciation of the side effects from a person who safely USES them.....rather than someone who ABUSES them
Godfather: if i chose to ABUSE tylenol...i would die of liver failure in a day
psych: i gave him as an example
psych: would u shoot urself in the face?
Godfather: yea well you have no scientific evidence to back up the correlation between steroids and his suicide
Godfather: he was seeing a psychiatrist for what period of time?
psych: a good period of time
psych: he wasnt depressed before he took steriods
Godfather: Garibaldi's story leaves a lot of room for the rationalizations and denials that doping cases invariably spawn. Maybe he was an extreme example, someone who had an aberrant reaction to the steroids. Maybe if he hadn't bought his drugs from a shady pharmacy in Mexico ... or if he had used precise doses rather than employing guesswork ... or if he hadn't combined them with antidepressants and an attention-deficit-disorder drug ... maybe then, things would have turned out differently.
Godfather: Lol....he purchased the steroids illegally...from a less than reliable source....he was using SSRI's....and using Methamphetamines
psych: he didnt get them from mexico his entire life
Godfather: SSRIs...and Methamphetamines
psych: When men take steroids for a prolonged period of time, they stop producing testosterone , and their testes shrink to a fraction of their original size. If they stop taking steroids at that time, they go through a period of very low testosterone levels . That is what causes depression.
Godfather: Your talking about acute hypogonadism..which is reversible if you administer Tamoxifen Citrate and Human-Chorionic Gonadotropin (HCG ) with an Aromtase Inhibitor such as Exemestane....
Godfather: steroid induced hypogonadism is reversible immediately upon cessation of steroids
Godfather: it was his LACK OF RESEARCH which is why he was unaware of what ancillary drugs to take to keep those side effects from being present
psych: listen u have your side but dont tell me im wrong
Godfather: lol im not telling you your wrong
psych: yes u are
Godfather: im just presenting a different viewpoint
psych: and ur are bias because u are taking steriods
Godfather: im not taking steroids right now
Godfather: my point is...Garibaldi's own negligence is the reason that he went into the depression in the first place
psych: hes only one example
Godfather: but I also realize their therapeutic advantage for people with muscle wasting disease, HIV patients, and men who are hypogonadal and their anti-aging qualities
psych: yea steriods are good if u need them medically
people under 18
psych: ur trying to tell me im wrong and ur saying i dont no anything about psych
Godfather: i was just presenting my argument and asking u to defend your opinion
psych: Eight medicolegally examined cases of suicide, in 21- to 33-year-old males, with a history of current or discontinued use of anabolic androgenic steroids (AAS) are described, five of which were approached by means of systematic interviews with survivors. Five suicides were committed during current use of AAS, and two following 2 and 6 months of AAS withdrawal. In one case it was unclear whether the suicide was committed during current use or after recent discontinuation. In five cases family members had noted depressive symptoms associated with AAS withdrawal. After prolonged use, four persons had developed depressive syndromes. Two subjects exhibited hypomania-like symptoms during the time immediately preceding the suicide. Four subjects had recently committed acts of violence while using AAS. In some cases these acts exacerbated the subjects'' problems in personal relationships or at work, which in turn seem to have precipitated the suicides. Only one of them had experienced suicidal ideation before starting to use AAS. In all cases examined by psychological autopsy, risk factors of suicidality likely to be independent of the use of AAS were present. In conclusion, this study presents data suggesting that psychiatric symptoms and conflicts resulting from long-term use of AAS may contribute to completed suicide in certain predisposed individuals.
Aggression - anabolic androgenic steroids - behavior - depression - suicide

Godfather: ok so right off the bat..we can say 7..since one had pre-existing suicidal thoughts probably exaserbated by exogenous hormones
psych: 1 outta 7
psych: 8
Godfather: but you're telling me...you have 7 cases of potential AAS induced suicide
gGodfather: I mean...yes I can definately see the correlation...
Godfather: and Im not opposed to the idea that there is somewhat of a relation...but I do by no means see a cause-and-effect relationship
Godfather: but we also have th disadvantage of not being able to talk to the patient
psych: rob was talked to
psych: he said that when he was off them he felt suicidal
psych: other ppl shoulda taken action but they still caused it
Godfather: the study fails to mention what other drugs they were prescribed to....like in the Garibaldi case...they could have just metnioned the AAS, but failed to mention the SSRI and Methamphetamines which very well could have played a SIGNIFICANT role in his suicide
Godfather: In any case his mental condition was precipitated by a bad decision that he made to alter his hormones, without full knowledge of the side effects or how to control them...
psych: but not everyone knoe the side effects and how to control them
psych: which shows that they can lead to it
Godfather: and thats the steroids fault?
Godfather: They should be held accountable for their own ignorance...
psych: if u stop taking them and dont no that ur suppose to do something to counteracte the depression then ur ****ed
Godfather: right....so what about negligence on the doctors part
Godfather: because he did make them aware that he had stopped using anabolic steroids...any competent physician would have called for a blood test at that point
Godfather: and taken steps to either put the patient on HRT....or to give him medication in order to restore HPTA function...
psych: and many ppl that take steriods dont tell anyone
Godfather: in any case.....what do you have to say about the fact that he was on SSRI's and Methamphetamines?
Godfather: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...ubmed_RVDocSum
psych: get off rob for a second
psych: its about ppl in general
Godfather: BACKGROUND: Field studies of illicit anabolic-androgenic steroid users suggest that some develop manic or aggressive reactions to these drugs-a potential public health problem. However, controlled laboratory evaluations of these effects remain limited. METHODS: In a randomized, placebo-controlled, crossover trial, we administered testosterone cypionate for 6 weeks in doses rising to 600 mg/wk and placebo for 6 weeks, separated by 6 weeks of no treatment, to 56 men aged 20 to 50 years. Psychiatric outcome measures included the Young Mania Rating Scale (YMRS), the Point Subtraction Aggression Paradigm (a computerized provocation test of aggression), the Aggression Questionnaire of Buss and Perry, the Symptom Checklist-90-R, daily diaries of manic and depressive symptoms, and similar weekly diaries completed by a "significant other" who knew the participant well. RESULTS: Testosterone treatment significantly increased manic scores on the YMRS (P = .002), manic scores on daily diaries (P = .003), visual analog ratings of liking the drug effect (P = .008), and aggressive responses on the Point Subtraction Aggression Paradigm (P = .03). Drug response was highly variable: of 50 participants who received 600 mg/wk of testosterone cypionate , 42 (84%) exhibited minimal psychiatric effects (maximum YMRS score, or =20). The 8 "responders" and 42 "nonresponders" did not differ significantly on baseline demographic, psychological, laboratory, or physiological measures. CONCLUSIONS: Testosterone administration, 600 mg/wk increased ratings of manic symptoms in normal men. This effect, however, was not uniform across individuals; most showed little psychological change, whereas a few developed prominent effects. The mechanism of these variable reactions remains unclear.
psych: have u ever taken psychological statistics
Godfather: im pre-med...obviously not
psych: well u need psych stats for what u sent me
Godfather: well....you sent me a case study with 8 dead patients
Godfather: and i sent you one with 50 live ones
psych: they were dead cuz of steriods
psych: ur premed...u look medically, im psych, i look mentally
Godfather: right....but regardless of either...those numbers dont lie
psych: do u no what all those numbers mean
Godfather: 8 out of the 50 subjects had ANY type of mental change in the course of supraphysiological doses of testosterone
psych: i gaurentte u cant tell me what p=.002 represents
Godfather: your right i cant...its really inconsequential to the argument....since the conclusions are what im looking for...
psych: u have to look at the results, the use of placebo
psych: and However, controlled laboratory evaluations of these effects remain limited.
Godfather: and regardless of the degree of mania those 8 responders experienced...it tells me pretty much what the entire medical community knows..... all drugs will affect individuals differently
Godfather: which means....if you are predisposed to mental illness.....dont use steroids
Godfather: Department of Psychiatry, University of Oxford, Oxford, UK. [email protected]

A number of reports have linked consumption of selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) with suicide by violent methods. We aimed to determine whether suicides with postmortem evidence of SSRI consumption are more likely to have used violent methods compared with suicides with no detectable antidepressants. Blood samples from all suicides in Sweden during 1992-2004 were examined. Suicides were classified into those who died by violence and nonviolent (self-poisoning) methods using information from police records and autopsy. In addition, we investigated proportions of violent suicide in individuals who died with detectable levels of tricyclic and other antidepressants.The sample consisted of 14,691 suicides. Of the 1958 suicides with detectable levels of SSRIs, 1247 were by violent means (63.7%) compared with 7835 of 11,045 suicides (70.9%) in antidepressant-free group (chi2(1) = 7.6; P < 0.01). We found no significant differences in the proportion of violent suicides in the SSRI group compared with the antidepressant-free group by sex or age band (15-24, 25-39, and over 40 years). When su**ivided by gender and age-bands, we found specific groups with significantly lower proportions of violent suicides compared with the antidepressants-free group, including men aged 15-24 years.

PMID: 17873685 [PubMed - in process]

Godfather: it would seem to me..that SSRI's cause a significantly higher suicide rate than steroids... 8
psych: THEORIST
Godfather: so you're telling me that his research isnt relevant because of the field of medicine that he practices/researches?
psych: no
psych: but depending on the type of thearist u are will yeild differnet test
Godfather: it was cut and dry reserach.... two groups... placebo and experimental.... administer high doses of testosterone...give them a number of psychological tests....and see which ones exhibit symptoms
Godfather: 8 of 50 exhibited symtpoms....done
Godfather: interpret all the other inconsequential data anyway you want
psych: with the probability rate at what it was shows a big difference
psych: and even if something is published it does not mean its true
Godfather: getting away from my main point...that you have shown me is 8 suicides from steroids...ill even say those suicides were 100% correlated to AAS use
Godfather: i just showed you almost 2000 suicides from SSRI's
Godfather: yea im not saying its true...for all intents and purposes...nothing is true...science is just an observation
Godfather: I just dont quite understand how the media is demonizing steroids..and people are advocating them being illegal.... when you've shown me 8 unfortunate circumstances....yet thousands of people are offing themselves from an approved medication by the FDA
Godfather: doesnt quite make sense to me
psych: approved for medical reasons in which they help treat an individuals problem
psych: not approved for everyone


Godfather: the government has no business telling people what they can or cannot put into their bodies
psych: yes they do
psych: they are dangerous
Godfather: no they dont.....its unconstitutional
psych: ur unconstitutional
Godfather: cars are dangerous...more people die from cars than steroids
Godfather: Moore TJ, Cohen MR, Furberg CD.
Institute for Safe Medication Practices, 1800 Byberry Rd, Ste 810, Huntingdon Valley, PA 19006, USA. [email protected]

BACKGROUND: The US Food and Drug Administration has operated the Adverse Event Reporting System since 1998. It collects all voluntary reports of adverse drug events submitted directly to the agency or through drug manufacturers. METHODS: Using extracts published for research use, we analyzed all serious adverse drug events and medication errors in the United States reported to the Food and Drug Administration from 1998 through 2005. RESULTS: From 1998 through 2005, reported serious adverse drug events increased 2.6-fold from 34 966 to 89 842, and fatal adverse drug events increased 2.7-fold from 5519 to 15 ,107. Reported serious events increased 4 times faster than the total number of outpatient prescriptions during the period. In a subset of drugs with 500 or more cases reported in any year, drugs related to safety withdrawals accounted for 26% of reported events in that group in 1999, declining to less than 1% in 2005. For 13 new biotechnology products, reported serious events grew 15.8-fold, from 580 reported in 1998 to 9181 in 2005. The increase was influenced by relatively few drugs: 298 of the 1489 drugs identified (20%) accounted for 407 394 of the 467 809 events (87%). CONCLUSIONS: These data show a marked increase in reported deaths and serious injuries associated with drug therapy over the study period. The results highlight the importance of this public health problem and illustrate the need for improved systems to manage the risks of prescription drugs.

PMID: 17846394 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Godfather: 15,000 people died from an FDA approved drug that their doctor prescribed to them..... 8 suicides from steroids
Godfather: I fail to see the danger
Godfather: 600,000 people die a year from smoking....wouldnt you agree that smoking is very dangerous to your health?
Godfather: smokings legal...
psych: yea and u have to ne a certain age to do it
psych: and i showed u one test

[5ifthCitizen]

i skimmed it.... looks like u had some good arguments against him and he was just refuting it with BS. i never try to change peoples mind tho. people who aren't educated about things but at the same time are inundated with media to influence their opinion on something usually don't think rationally and aren't worth the time to try to pick apart. thats why i dont watch the news anymore!

[bcaasdirty]

u pwned that beeatch!

it still amazes me how hardheaded she is and refuses to accept the facts you presented her

[scottish]

I like how she says not everything published is true, but keeps citing published reports.

[xlxBigSexyxlx]

haha I love you godfather!!

people just dont know....

I still remember when I gave a speech about roids in me english class. As soon as I started, i had all these dirty looks, but by the end, ev1 was just shocked and like wtf!?!?

haha good stuff

[xlxBigSexyxlx]

I like how she says not everything published is true, but keeps citing published reports.

haha yeah, what dum dum

[thegodfather]

i skimmed it.... looks like u had some good arguments against him and he was just refuting it with BS. i never try to change peoples mind tho. people who aren't educated about things but at the same time are inundated with media to influence their opinion on something usually don't think rationally and aren't worth the time to try to pick apart. thats why i dont watch the news anymore!

yea it was a HER by the way....I really liked when I said that 600,000 people die a year from smoking, and she says "Well you have to be a certain age to do it"....like ohhh ok..

[Lexed]

long but amazing read still shows how stubborn people are

[RuhlFreak55]

what a moron......oh it was a her??? dare i ask if it's a fat her? cause those are very hard to convince that people should be allowed to do things that make them healthy..........u owned her though...stupid bitch didn't know her shit......how in hell does the media sensationalize 8 cases of perhaps remotely correlated suicide to steroids and not talk about the smoking and drinking and antidepresents....better yet aren't there some very very dangerous rec. drugs? they don't even make the news as much as steroids

[DaddyB]

I always like to pull the smoking card when people say steroids are illegal because there unsafe. The government does not care about our safety!

[Lexed]

if there so bad shouldnt cigarettes be illegal too

[Amorphic]

honestly it is basically impossible to argue with someone about steroids when they know nothing about the subject. everyone believes what they hear from the media and its going to stay that way for a long time.

its so annoying.

[xlxBigSexyxlx]

Can you drink winny?
My friend wants to know...

[spywizard]

but he has a degree..doesn't that make him smarter???

idiot..

Hey.. what profession has the most suicides per 1000??

answer..

psychologist

must be the idiocy

[football2007]

I laughed at the end when she said

"Yeah but you have to be a certain age to do it"

That alone takes away any credibility she had in her argument.

[RuhlFreak55]

I laughed at the end when she said

"Yeah but you have to be a certain age to do it"

That alone takes away any credibility she had in her argument.

true dat

[bpm1]

great stuff godfatheer i read the whole thing, great points made.i could tell by her responses it was a woman, i thought it was odvious,lol

[a lifeless plague]

thats my boy. always knows how to shut these idiots up. haah

[Brent_G]

I hate stupid people.

[IronReload04]

very good work....very good

[l2elapse]

so stupid, cigs have been proven to kill but they remain legal at 18 cause they govt makes so much money of them

[IronReload04]

honestly- seeing to how fda and food and drug administration was not for criminilization



steroids are probably illegal because of jealousy....law makers have a problem with people looking incredible, and feel threatened by it.....I am not buying the argument that they are just really concerned about us