Is/has the war in Iraq been a pointless war?

[Flagg]

I'm honestly curious as to what people think about this. The title by the way doesn't state that I think it's pointless or not pointless, it's just that in another forum I go to, I recently commented on a writer who was writing a story about war and how I think he was trying to show how bloody pointless war is, through the story. Some other guy on this forum who said he was an Army vet went off on a rant saying how insulted he was by that, even though i tried to reassure him that wasn't what I'd personally said. It got me thinking, is a soldier who's had first hand experience, the best qualified person to say wether or not the War, or any war, is pointless?

[adam_05]

i think that a soldier is going to be more touchy on the subject,but i have many friends my age over there right now and most of them say it's a big waste of time and say fvck them and let's let 'em kill eachother and pullout.

i mean seriously,what are WE/America gaining by staying at war with them? it's obvious Bush just wants the attention,not to mention their oil,for "getting the job done". IMO,the war has and is a waste of our men,my friends,our money and many other things......just my opinion.

[pumpd4lif]

It is pointless it is a war that is,nt ment to end it is to further the agenda of those who want one thing power over all...a one world government and it is happining rite under our noses... are u guys in canada and mexico ready to be governed by the usa,well to bad if ur not get ready for ur new currency the $$$$$AMERO

[domeyeahaigh]

no it is not pointless

[pumpd4lif]

no it is not pointless

rest assure it is not what they told the public what it was for,,,hmmm no weapons of mass destruction ..is that just a honest mistake?do some research all the facts are starting to come out dont be the last to relize what is really going on!

[graffixct2]

I think it's a complete waste. Plus it's ruining the value of the dollar. I think we should be fixing our nation first before we bomb/rebuild other nations.

[pumpd4lif]

I think it's a complete waste. Plus it's ruining the value of the dollar. I think we should be fixing our nation first before we bomb/rebuild other nations.

the government wants to ruin the doller so they can make it easier to implement there new one world economy google the AMERO

canada an mexico just signed a bill that is going to open both borders and combine all three governments as one economy just the begining so get ready for the rough ride to come THE NEW NORTH AMERICA <---u mean u guys didnt know? the reason why u didnt know is because the new terriost act that went thru congress makes it so they dont have to ask(<---and u thought u lived in a free world) the publics opinions about these new laws and bills they pass...they can now come into ur house without cause without a warrent hold u as long as they want without any reason,still people dont know these things pfft.


and the funny thing is people still think some guy that lives in the side of a mountain planned an attack on the world trade centers ; / i guess he made the call to remove the security dogs from the twin towers weeks before 911,i guess they were he one that planted the thermite to cut the steal so the towers would be sure to collapse hmmm...And listen to obamma,s wife how she says she is repressed and the only thing that will pull her and the people in poverty outa repressoin is a one world government...Do ur own research people it will be more gratifying to find the info urself instead of hearing it from somebody else!

[Tock]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financi..._Iraq_Conflict
These folks are predicting the final cost of this war at $2,400,000,000,000. That's $2.4 Trillion.

What other things could we have spent this money on, other than an effort to take over the middle east and keep the US addicted to cheap oil? What's been done is gonna result in making the USA a weaker, debtor nation.

[Voice of Reason]

I see pumpd4lif has watched www.zeitgeistmovie.com, speaks the truth. You know funny thing I noticed when I went to Thailand last year at the all the airports the ticket person said i don't need the ticket they just scanned my passport and new I was good to go from the chip placed in it. I Had know clue it was in there till I saw that movie.

Deep shit. http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles...fellergoal.htm

[rockinred]

I don't know if I will buy into the idea that the gov is out to rule all in the world...sure there are some truths in what is said on some of the comments... I just think that this particular war has a little more to do with Bush's battle in Iraq from the beginning...which yes, can be linked to what is being theorized...but, I am not ready to get too worked up over the direction the gov is taking on a lot of things... look in history every government all over the world throughout all of time is full of all types of corruption like this... what are you looking for? you won't find it anywhere on this current earth.

[xlxBigSexyxlx]

big waste

first it was find bin laden in Afghanistan, yet we end up in iraq causing more death and destruction than ever before.
then it comes to...oh um, weapons of mass destruction. here we got korea testing out bombs and openly making threats to america, yet do we step foot there? no.

hell, the majority of al queda wasnt even in iraq until we invaded them.

its clearly bush trying to fight his daddy's war. all about power and money. bush doesnt give 2 shits about the soldiers.

[Panzerfaust]

It's not pointless to the Elitists and the Lobbysists who stand to gain $$$ from this farce you call a "War".

A soldier has no say in the matter, he simply follows orders and goes. It's a damn shame so many have died just so a select few can line their pockets.

Most people have to tell themselves that this war is protecting our freedom but that is just a lie, our freedom is not at stake here.

Alot of people need to believe that though to sleep well at night (IE: Families who have lost a loved one). I really hurt for those people.

[Panzerfaust]

Technically speaking, it is not the goverment who have plans of a one world government. It is the "Elite" bankers who control gov't and have had these plans for well over 100yrs.

Such an action does not take place in 10, 20, 30 or even 50yrs. You slowly strip the will of the people and slowly deprive them of their rights and dignity, you slowly tear at the fabric of American culture and over time those what seem to be little instances add up.

They know this, those educated on these so called "Elite" know this. It's high time you know this because there is one thing they need in order to be sucessful, and that is for us to cooperate.

[Jfew44]

I feel the government had to do something after 9/11 to get America "back on their feet". I do feel, however, that we have been over there way too long and lost way too many good people and people smarter than me should figure out some way to get us out of there without the United States looking like a bunch of pussies

[Panzerfaust]

I feel the government had to do something after 9/11 to get America "back on their feet". I do feel, however, that we have been over there way too long and lost way too many good people and people smarter than me should figure out some way to get us out of there without the United States looking like a bunch of pussies

You fail to realise the reasoning behind such an attack, it was simply allowed to garner public support for this farce known as the Iraq War.

There always has to be a catalyst for a conflict, look through history and you will easily see this silly "game" repeated over and over again.

WWII = Pearl Harbor "Surprise Attack"

Vietnam = Golf of Tonkin Farce

Let's be fair here, this is not only the tactics of American ideology. This is basic manipulation tactics and has been used by most every gov't.

Think about it, before 9/11 can you say you ever met alot of "Patriotic" people? I know I certainly hadn't. We are attacked and all of a sudden every Tom Dick & Harry is a ****ing Patriot. Toby Keith cashing in on the attacks like there is no tomorrow.

Now look around after the farce has been set. How many people are up in arms and screaming like a Patriot? *crickets* *crickets* *crickets*

They only needed public support long enough to set the wheels in motion for their farce. For god's sakes the media had everyone so ****ing scared of Terrorist attacks that they didn't notice or care that we stopped chasing the man behind the ****ing attack but went after a lowly dictator. haha

I mean seriously...talk about a cluster **** man....

[Prada]

http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Exhaus...link_0310.html

Exhaustive' Pentagon-sponsored study finds no Saddam-Qaeda link

After reviewing hundreds of thousands of captured Iraqi documents, a Pentagon-sponsored review has found no evidence of operational links between Iraqi strongman Saddam Hussein and the al-Qaeda terror network, a McClatchy article reports

The "exhaustive" study found that Saddam Hussein did provide some support to other terrorist groups but, as Warren Strobel writes for McClatchy, "his security services were directed primarily against Iraqi exiles, Shiite Muslims, Kurds and others he considered enemies of his regime."

Strobel reiterates that the new study "found no documents indicating a 'direct operational link' between Hussein's Iraq and al Qaida before the invasion," according to an unnamed US official. The study is due to Congress and for general release by midweek.

As is well known, President George W. Bush and his administration freely connected Saddam and al-Qaeda as a key pretense for the invasion of Iraq after the terror attacks of September 11, 2001. Polls indicated that a large majority of Americans believed the president's assertion.

In the time since then, the Saddam/al-Qaeda tie has been criticized and deconstructed in the press and blogosphere and by study panels, but the upcoming Pentagon report promises to be a particularly stark and thorough refutation of one of the primary Bush administration arguments for the invasion of Iraq. The subsequent war has come at the cost of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi lives, nearly 4,000 US troop deaths, and some half a trillion US dollars and counting.

Bush and his staff still tie Saddam's Iraq and al-Qaeda, despite previously released documents and reports indicating the same findings as the forthcoming extensive review. As recently as last week, Vice President Dick Cheney again asserted a link between the Iraqi dictator and the terror network.

Further excerpts from Strobel's article for McClatchy, available in full at this link, follow...
#

Then-Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld claimed in September 2002 that the United States had "bulletproof" evidence of cooperation between the radical Islamist terror group and Saddam's secular dictatorship.

Then-Secretary of State Colin Powell cited multiple linkages between Saddam and al Qaida in a watershed February 2003 speech to the United Nations Security Council to build international support for the invasion. Almost every one of the examples Powell cited turned out to be based on bogus or misinterpreted intelligence.

...

The new study, entitled "Saddam and Terrorism: Emerging Insights from Captured Iraqi Documents", was essentially completed last year and has been undergoing what one U.S. intelligence official described as a "painful" declassification review.

...

The issue of al Qaida in Iraq already has played a role in the 2008 presidential campaign. Sen. John McCain, the presumptive GOP nominee, mocked Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill, recently for saying that he'd keep some U.S. troops in Iraq if al Qaida established a base there. "I have some news. Al Qaida is in Iraq," McCain told supporters. Obama retorted that, "There was no such thing as al Qaida in Iraq until George Bush and John McCain decided to invade." (In fact, al Qaida in Iraq didn't emerge until 2004, a year after the invasion.)

[hugovsilva]

Its not pointless to some people getting their pockets full.

Its pointless to the american public who sees their young people die and pay taxes just to fill the pockets of those that find a point in this war.

[Jfew44]

You fail to realise the reasoning behind such an attack, it was simply allowed to garner public support for this farce known as the Iraq War.

There always has to be a catalyst for a conflict, look through history and you will easily see this silly "game" repeated over and over again.

WWII = Pearl Harbor "Surprise Attack"

Vietnam = Golf of Tonkin Farce

Let's be fair here, this is not only the tactics of American ideology. This is basic manipulation tactics and has been used by most every gov't.

Think about it, before 9/11 can you say you ever met alot of "Patriotic" people? I know I certainly hadn't. We are attacked and all of a sudden every Tom Dick & Harry is a ****ing Patriot. Toby Keith cashing in on the attacks like there is no tomorrow.

Now look around after the farce has been set. How many people are up in arms and screaming like a Patriot? *crickets* *crickets* *crickets*

They only needed public support long enough to set the wheels in motion for their farce. For god's sakes the media had everyone so ****ing scared of Terrorist attacks that they didn't notice or care that we stopped chasing the man behind the ****ing attack but went after a lowly dictator. haha

I mean seriously...talk about a cluster **** man....

Ok bro, I understand your point of view but I am just as much of a patriot as I was before 9/11 and during the start of the war in Iraq as I am now. All I said is that America had to do something. Sure we did the wrong thing and I think we should find a way to get out of it.

The one thing you said that was 100% wrong was the part about Toby Keith. You honestly think he's cashing in on the attacks? I have personally been at 4of his concerts and at every single one he brought soldiers on stage and had the crowd show some appriciation for the hard work they have done serving our country. His dad was in the army and grew up patriotic. Now this is the first time I have disagreed with someone and told them but that kinda made me mad. Maybe you're just mad cause he's from Oklahoma?

[Voice of Reason]

Toby Keith then is just another fool raising false hopes of patriotism for a (war/inside job) to get more dumb misinformed rednecks killed. WAKE THE FVCK UP!

[Jfew44]

Toby Keith then is just another fool raising false hopes of patriotism for a (war/inside job) to get more dumb misinformed rednecks killed. WAKE THE FVCK UP!

If you live in America its people like you who make me sick to my stomach. If you dont like our country, move. Its that simple. Now all rednecks are dumb and misinformed? Toby Keith is from Oklahoma and considers himself a redneck. Now why would he want people "like him" killed?

[Amorphic]

totally pointless, i dont even want to get into all the reasons why as im sure a lot of other members can explain all the reasons

[Amorphic]

Toby Keith then is just another fool raising false hopes of patriotism for a (war/inside job) to get more dumb misinformed rednecks killed. WAKE THE FVCK UP!

i see him more as just a fake mass media produced pro war, pro patriotic douchebag who just likes to cash in on whatever hot topic arises.

hes just a record company construction.

[Dangercat00]

I would say that it certainly isn't going nearly as well as it should have, but I honestly don't think there is no point whatsoever. I'm not denying that the entire thing was gone about the wrong way and far too many private contractors made a killing off of it, but when you look at Iraq and how fvcked up it was, it really is better now than it was then.

[Voice of Reason]

i see him more as just a fake mass media produced pro war, pro patriotic douchebag who just likes to cash in on whatever hot topic arises.

hes just a record company construction.

Your right but I choose both your and my opinions.

If you live in America its people like you who make me sick to my stomach. If you dont like our country, move. Its that simple. Now all rednecks are dumb and misinformed? Toby Keith is from Oklahoma and considers himself a redneck. Now why would he want people "like him" killed?

Jfew44 never I said I didn't like America, and I feel sorry for you and sorry for my bad choice of words "rednecks" when I should of just said people but this topic gets me angry and I say things out of line. It sadness me that this BS is tearing Americans/humans like you and me apart, thats what they want.

...

[thegodfather]

If you live in America its people like you who make me sick to my stomach. If you dont like our country, move. Its that simple. Now all rednecks are dumb and misinformed? Toby Keith is from Oklahoma and considers himself a redneck. Now why would he want people "like him" killed?

Thats some of the most flawed logic I have heard in a long time. If you dont like our country, move? Is that what you would have said to the blacks in the 1960s fighting for Civil Rights? They dont like the fact they are segregated and denied resources, so they should have just moved right? Or how bout women in the late 1800s who fought for the right to vote? They certainly didn't like our country, should they have moved as well? It is people like you, who believe that a "Patriot" should agree with every asinine policy that an elitist politician makes. It is so easy to say because you dont agree with my policy, you are not a patriot. I do not agree with WARRANTLESS wire tapping, immunity for Telecoms who broke the law, torture of prisoners, suspension of habeas corpus, and killing 1,000,000 innocent Iraqi civilians....So I must be unpatriotic right? Or maybe I should leave the country because I dont like those policies right? Thats what the founding fathers of the United States should have done when the King of Britain was extorting them for taxes and ruling their lives ruthlessly right?

I would say that it certainly isn't going nearly as well as it should have, but I honestly don't think there is no point whatsoever. I'm not denying that the entire thing was gone about the wrong way and far too many private contractors made a killing off of it, but when you look at Iraq and how fvcked up it was, it really is better now than it was then.

That is the United States problem how? There are 190 countries in the world, nearly half of them are under some form of dictatorship or totalitarian regime. Is it our job to spend thousands of troops lives and trillions of dollars to make those countries "better now than it was then..."? I would say absolutely NOT. Also, your point of Iraq being better now than it was then is completely wrong. The country is far more unstable than it was under Saddam Hussein. He brought a GREAT deal of stability to the country, and kept the opposing tribes under control. There are 1,000,000 dead Iraqi civilians who would most likely disagree with your assertion that their country is better now than it was then, mostly because we killed them. We made what Saddam did to the Kurds look like a birthday party in comparison to what we did in the country and the amount of bloodshed we are respionsible for.

It is not America's job to be the policemen of the world. It is also not our job to spread Democracy (representative, Republican form of Democracy) by FORCE. We should do as the founders instructed and LEAD BY EXAMPLE. And if America's actions and policies are to be the example of a healthy Democracy over the passed 7 years, I'm moving to 1920 Stalinist Russia.


I will simply make a list of reasons why this war was completely pointless, and I'll ask that the true Patriots on this forum refute them with valid evidence, or at least some intelligent thought.

1) No WMDs found, blatent lies from the Executive branch regarding this, most noteably Bush and Cheney.

2) No ties to Al-Qaeda or Osama Bin-Laden both pre and post invasion.

3) Iraq was NEVER a threat to the United States national security, the only reason under the Constitution that we may goto war with another country.

4) People of Iraq have said repeatedly they want an Islamic ruled government, NOT a Democracy.



I dont even need to go any further, in fact I'd just like to see someone post a list of reasons why this war was WORTH IT, that are in line with the Constitution and can be backed up with documented evidence.

[thegodfather]

I dont even need to go any further, in fact I'd just like to see someone post a list of reasons why this war was WORTH IT, that are in line with the Constitution and can be backed up with documented evidence.

Any takers? Anyone looking to be owned in the near future? Ok, didnt think so.

[Jfew44]

I have no problem with people who agree with the war and I have no problem with people who disagree. We need both people in America because that's what makes America. VoiceofReason, me telling you that you should move had nothing to do with the war. It had to do with you saying Rednecks were misinformed and dumb and Toby Keith was a cause. The top deaths from the war have been soldiers from California, Texas, Illinios, Ohio, Michigan, Penn, New York, Virginia, Georgia, and Florida. I see only 3 southern states not counting california in that. I believe the entire United States is misinformed. That is what is tearing us apart. After the next election we will see what transpires out of the war. I am personally hoping they get the troops that dont even want to be there out of there.

TheGodfather, I do not believe that a patriot should agree with every thing the government says. The definition of a patriot is one who loves and/or defends ones country. I love my country despite the faults it may have. Sure it needs work, but its nothing like segregation or women's rights. And in case you need a refresher on history, slavery was a problem throughout the entire world at the time it was prevelent in the U.S. and women in countries all over the world dont have rights like women here do. Bottom line is unless you know for sure there was an underlying plan for the war, why make accusations and demean the government? Could you run the country better?

And one last thing, everyone can think what they want, but until they read about Toby's history and his family they shouldn't judge. By the way, I dont hate anybody and dont think anyone should move out of the country if they disagree with me, I'm just expressing my opinions which everyone else is doing.

[Jfew44]

And Toby Keith has always been my favorite musician in case you couldn't tell. But Im glad people have different opinions on things. If not the world would be boring

[SMCengineer]

On the war being pointless, I think it's a subjective question. If you were to ask somebody who's idea of protecting America is spreading democracy-even though the very use of the word democracy is fallacious- than no the war isn't pointless, but it is senseless. We also have to remember that the Bush administration didn't plan this war. It was planned in 1998 during the Clinton administration, but with American sentiment the way it was after the 9/11 attacks the administration could declare war on anyone and we'd oblige. They just saw a chance to execute it and they took it.

However, if you were to ask someone who would rather see a man who killed 3,000 Americans brought to justice than yes, this war and the Afghanistan war might be considered pointless. There are other more effective means at capturing Bin Laden, who should literally be hanging from a tree right now. We could have issued Letters of Marque and Reprisal, which is Article I, Section 8, paragraph 11 of the U.S. Constitution. This would have made his chances for escape nearly impossible and he would most likely be in our control right now. We also wouldn't have had to go to war with a nation when only a small group committed the act.

[Hollywood080]

the government wants to ruin the doller so they can make it easier to implement there new one world economy google the AMERO

canada an mexico just signed a bill that is going to open both borders and combine all three governments as one economy just the begining so get ready for the rough ride to come THE NEW NORTH AMERICA <---u mean u guys didnt know? the reason why u didnt know is because the new terriost act that went thru congress makes it so they dont have to ask(<---and u thought u lived in a free world) the publics opinions about these new laws and bills they pass...they can now come into ur house without cause without a warrent hold u as long as they want without any reason,still people dont know these things pfft.


and the funny thing is people still think some guy that lives in the side of a mountain planned an attack on the world trade centers ; / i guess he made the call to remove the security dogs from the twin towers weeks before 911,i guess they were he one that planted the thermite to cut the steal so the towers would be sure to collapse hmmm...And listen to obamma,s wife how she says she is repressed and the only thing that will pull her and the people in poverty outa repressoin is a one world government...Do ur own research people it will be more gratifying to find the info urself instead of hearing it from somebody else!

OH! You're one of those guys.......

[CheddaNips]

lost 2 people close to me. For what? our president was on a powertrip using 9/11 to back his decisions. My uncle is away from his family for 8-9 months out of the year.

It effects me alot and i think it is a waste of time

[IronReload04]

Godfather.......you are a stud



admittingly, I am not highly eductated in politics.....But I know this
1. IN september/9/2001, osama bin laden attacked the U.S.
2. Shortly after this, we invade Iraq for 2 reasons
a. weopons of mass destruction
b. Hussains tie with bin laden
which both proved to be false
3. What we intended to fight for, does not actually exist.....And we are getting in debt BIGTIME and kids are dieing. Their was even talk of a draft, to fight for things, that have been proven not to exist


not only is this war pointless, but its a real ****ING PROBLEM if you ask me







troops, I support you no matter what. but some facts dont lie


ps. gas prices just hit a record high in my area today (insert smiley face)

[ecivon]

I was in the military -- both Air Force and Army, and did contract work for the govt. after discharge. I have 3 uncles who all worked in intel for the govt. I have serious lifelong military and government injuries, but can tell you that once a veteran always a veteran. Every soldier who is injured is in a separate brotherhood with similar vets. I wouldn't trade my military experience for anything.

It is one thing to fight for a moral reason and another to fight for political, or economic advantage. This is not a justified war and our soldiers are paying the price for political goals and whimsy of those in power who seek wealth at the expense of others without regard for the consequences.

It has been pointed out that Afghanistan and Iraq will cost the US over $2 trillion, but that does not cover what the cost of treating wounded vets will be, nor providing their benefits.

This war is a travesty and a joke, as is this administration. Think of the peace, goodwill and diplomacy we could have if we spent that $2 trillion dollars on fighting poverty, hunger and diseases throughout those regions.

Our annual defense budget is more than the rest of the world combined, including Russia and China. It is perverse and it is all about oil, power and hegemony.

[Panzerfaust]

i see him more as just a fake mass media produced pro war, pro patriotic douchebag who just likes to cash in on whatever hot topic arises.

hes just a record company construction.

Sad But True!

[Panzerfaust]

I was in the military -- both Air Force and Army, and did contract work for the govt. after discharge. I have 3 uncles who all worked in intel for the govt. I have serious lifelong military and government injuries, but can tell you that once a veteran always a veteran. Every soldier who is injured is in a separate brotherhood with similar vets. I wouldn't trade my military experience for anything.

It is one thing to fight for a moral reason and another to fight for political, or economic advantage. This is not a justified war and our soldiers are paying the price for political goals and whimsy of those in power who seek wealth at the expense of others without regard for the consequences.

It has been pointed out that Afghanistan and Iraq will cost the US over $2 trillion, but that does not cover what the cost of treating wounded vets will be, nor providing their benefits.

This war is a travesty and a joke, as is this administration. Think of the peace, goodwill and diplomacy we could have if we spent that $2 trillion dollars on fighting poverty, hunger and diseases throughout those regions.

Our annual defense budget is more than the rest of the world combined, including Russia and China. It is perverse and it is all about oil, power and hegemony.

Yeah, I mean god forbid we spend that money here for ourselves and clean up our own backyard. That $2 Trillion could go along way here in the States.

It is not our responsibility to clean up everybody around the worlds shithole.

The media and all the BS propoganda have everyone believing that we have a "moral" obligation to police the world and clean up everyone elses shit. Yet, leave our own backyard full of shit. It's ****ing laughable.

[green22]

HELL YES ITS POINTLESS!!!!!!!!!!!!! everyone ask yourselves, What have over 4000 young men and women died for???????????And if ya want more Americans to die for years to come vote McCain...cause he will keep us in Iraq and probably have us in Iran. This war makes me sick, excuess me while I go puke.

[Panzerfaust]

People would be amazed what a 1 million+ march on Washington could do to shape policy in Washington. To bad people are to preoccuiped with all their toys and daily rituals to realise that this is supposed to be "a gov't for the people, by the people".

[pumpd4lif]

People would be amazed what a 1 million+ march on Washington could do to shape policy in Washington. To bad people are to preoccuiped with all their toys and daily rituals to realise that this is supposed to be "a gov't for the people, by the people".

AMEN! I would spend every dime i have to make that possible

[C_Bino]

canada an mexico just signed a bill that is going to open both borders and combine all three governments as one economy just the begining so get ready for the rough ride to come THE NEW NORTH AMERICA <---u mean u guys didnt know?

Sorry but not true. Canada did NOT sign an agreement to join the currecny man. Sorry but I live in Canada and that did not happen.

They have created a unified ID system so our drivers license's are for North America not just Canada or the US. But no monetary agreement.

[Amorphic]

Sorry but not true. Canada did NOT sign an agreement to join the currecny man. Sorry but I live in Canada and that did not happen.

They have created a unified ID system so our drivers license's are for North America not just Canada or the US. But no monetary agreement.

wasnt the SPP created under the Martin government and ratified by the Harper Conservatives?

as far as i know, the whole north american union, and every aspect regarding it is still moving along all according to plan