The unofficial ask a Christian thread

[peachfuzz]

man this thread has become next to impossible to follow yet alone digest for that matter. But i understand the intent so its all good.

[GZA]

or simply some english speaking quack from 2,000 years in the future has no Idea what he's talking about when it relates to a culture and language that existed 2,000 years ago.

^^^^^your qoute^^^^^

bla bla bla... so that conterdics your thoughts and statements about the priest and pope being able to teach the bible like you say... they are just men and how could they know what happen so long ago... humm???? did they read their bibles??? lol

Our pope reads the bible IN LIGHT OF APOSTOLIC TRADITION, becasue we know truth can't contradict truth.... The Catolic Church therefore isn't arguing with the Ancient Christians like Protestants are (as I have illuminated with my pages upon pages of historical quotes from Ancient Christians who believe the same thing as we do)... so your sound pretty ridiculous here....

[GZA]

man this thread has become next to impossible to follow yet alone digest for that matter. But i understand the intent so its all good.

Yeah... kind of sucks....... Pretty much what anyone should do if they are confused is just go look this stuff up on their own... look at both sides of the coin and decide for themselves.... (or if you just want the quick answer :P ) Just take any historians word for it. I think it becomes a pretty basic and logical argument after that... Look it up anywhere... Catholicism dates back to the time of Jesus and the Apostles... and you can also look it up anywhere, Protestantism was founded by Martin Luther about 500 years ago... add that to all the verses in the bible where Jesus is talking about HIS Church and it will be logical that the only Church he could be have possibly been refering to as HIS is the Catholic Church (because Protestantism didn't even exist until some 1,500 years later.... Then if you believe Jesus is God and doesn't make mistakes... it's all a matter of deciding if you want to be in the Church Jesus belongs to......... a quick example of one of these verses that speak of The Church in the bible here you go:

Eph 5:21-32
21 Be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ. 22 Wives, be subject to your husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. 24 As the church is subject to Christ, so let wives also be subject in everything to their husbands. 25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. 28 Even so husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no man ever hates his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, as Christ does the church, 30 because we are members of his body. 31 "For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh." 32 This mystery is a profound one, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church
RSV

Now all these great things you read about The Church "that Jesus loves the Church... is the "savior" of the Church... Died for her... and so on and so forth.... keep in mind that the church Amcon belongs to DIDN'T EXIST at the time... only Catholicism was around... to me it becomes pretty obvious... or how about this verse...

1 John 2:19-21
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out, that it might be plain that they all are not of us. 20 But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all know. 21 I write to you, not because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and know that no lie is of the truth.
RSV

Obviously, here it's plainly saying that whoever leaves the original truth... THEY are in error.... and which Church was the original?

I'm sorry it all got so complicated but there are alot of details... take note however that Amcon has NEVER provided any evidence to the contrary as it relates to Catholicism NOT being the first form of Christianity... ask him do to so, I bet he can't... at least that's my basic and simplest argument for Catholicism... Maybe he'll provide you with his basic and simple argument for Protestantism (as in why he believes some guy 1,500 years removed from Jesus has the authority to make up his own religion and teach things in it that there is no history of ANY Christian ever believing and somehow claim that Martin Luther's religion is the religion of Jesus Christ)

[GZA]

[QUOTE=amcon;4435253]as for "christian fathers" the mormans call them selves christians an you might as well be qouting them[QUOTE]

.... sorry but Mormonism was founded in 1830... some of those quotes are even OLDER than some of the books in the bible itself if you didn't notice...... (Revelations was written about 120 A.D.)........ So there's living apostles around and books of the bible yet to be written during some of these quotes and STILL you think those Christians weren't authentic??????????? What about the quotes by Pope Clement who is mentioned in the bible as being in the "book of life" (i.e. going to heaven).... EVEN THE WORD OF GOD SAYS HE IS A GOOD CHRISTIAN and yet I have quotes of him wielding the authority of Peter as Pope!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ........ there's NUMEROUS quotes to the Churches in the Corinthians, Romans, Ephesians.........THE SAME CHURCHES THE APOSTLE PAUL WRITES TO IN THE BOOKS OF THE BIBLE NAMED Corinthians, Romans, Ephesians... (and so forth)...... and you are telling me THEY aren't authentic Christian Churches and might as well be "mormons"???????????? ARE YOU CRAZY!!!!!!!!! THESE CHURCHES ARE LISTED SPECIFICALLY IN TEH BIBLE AS BEING TAUGHT SPECIFICALLY BY THE APOSTLES THEMSELVES!!!!!!!!!!!!! and I show you quotes PROVING THEY BELIEVED THE SAME THING THE CATHOLIC CHURCH TEACHES TODAY AND YET YOU DOUBT?????????????

[amcon]

It's not the devils work if God himself instructs us to follow the teachings of these men..... I guess perhaps you think it's "God's work" to be a Mormon or what have you because they AGREE WITH YOU as it relates to BOTH using the King James Version AND relying on the "Holy Spirit" to enlighten them when they are reading scripture.... So everyone go grab their bible and make up whatever you think the bible says and start your own church and crown yourself a teacher of God's word when you know nothing about what you're talking about... you think the sort of Chaos that spawned 35,000 different forms of conflicting, arguing disagreeing denominations is of God???? Do you think your philosophy has lead all these forms of Protestantism to Gods truth????????? When either 0 out of 35,000 or, at best 1 out of 35,000 of these denominations could have possibly had the Holy Spirit teaching them as it relates to every doctrine they follow????????? How many arguing conflicting denominations have been spawned out of those Christians who acknowledge the authority of the Pope to teach infallibly in 2,000 years?????????? 0!!!! How many have been lead astray into error following your "path to truth" (i.e. read it in your bible and claim the Holy Spirit inspired your interpretation) about 35,000 so you tell me....
1 truth in 2,000 years
Or 35,000 opposing versions of the truth in 500 years….

Which philosophy of finding Gods truth was spawned by God and which philosophy was spawned by the devil………. So you are saying God wants us to pretty much place our soul on some roulette wheel with 35,000 slots and just cross our fingers and hope we are in the right denomination????????? Your way of discerning truth is really just a way of being lead astray….. why did God even make a Church????????
Eph 4:14
14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the cunning of men, by their craftiness in deceitful wiles.
RSV
Now don’t tell me you think that Protestants are not being “tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine”……… ALMOST EVERY SINGLE DAY A NEW PROTESTANT CHURCH IS MADE with it’s own particular version of the “truth” (do the math…there is a new form of Protestantism in existence for almost every single day that has passed since Protestantism was first established)… Was God the author of this Chaos??????? I think the Devil was very pleased to see the institution of such anarchy when it comes to creating your own “Christian” religion…. As long as someone “thinks” that’s what the bible says and claims that “God told him so” then it becomes a perfectly valid form of Protestantism…… what a joke…….. Now the stability of the Catholic Church………. One belief system for 2,000 years…. With as many believers in existence today as all other forms of Christianity COMBINED… THAT is the stability of God’s church… THAT is the church where we are no longer like children tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine!
John 17:22-23
22 The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23 I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me.
RSV
Jesus Christ himself prays to God the Father in the bible that his people be PERFECTLY ONE as a sign to prove to the world “that thou has sent me…”. Do you doubt that Jesus’ prayer came true??????????? ONLY IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH can you find such stability and perfected unity!!!!! …….. the Catholic Church has not divided A SINGLE TIME IN 2,000 YEARS… but EVERY SINGLE DAY the PROTESTANT CHURCH DIVIDES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now which Church do you think Jesus was praying for in the above verse??????????? Are Protestants “PERFECTLY ONE”?????????????? If not… then they have nothing to do with the people Jesus was referring to in this verse. Only the One Catholic (universal) Church can claim such unity………… to remind you… as The World Book Encyclopedia puts it:
The office of Pope was founded on the words of Christ: "And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter [which means a rock], and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" ( Matthew xvi, 18). The attention of every historian has been attracted by the endurance of the Papacy through centuries that have seen the downfall of every other European institution that existed when the Papacy arose, and of a number of others that have originated and fallen, while it continued t flourish. The Roman Catholic offers these facts as evidence that the Church is not merely a human institution, but that it is built "upon a rock," (The World Book Encyclopedia © 1940, Page 5730 Volume13)

Since we both know by now that Jesus Built his house upon a "rock"... here's another verse from the bible to shed more light on the implications of this idea... because part of being founded on a "rock" means that your institution is built upon a firm foundation and your institiution will not fail or collapse....
Matt 7:24 and following:
24 "Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash."
NIV
Now Jesus is a wise man right?????? Now what sort of foundation do you think he would build the house of God (the Church) upon???????? Sand??????? Or a Rock??????? So I ask…….. Who’s house in 2000 years has not fallen????? And who’s house in only 500 years has fallen and shattered into some 35,000 different pieces????????? You are fooling yourself if you think your idea of how to find truth (just anyone can make it up and claim it came from Gods inspiration) has anything to do with the firm, unshakable foundation Jesus intended for his Church. While Protestantism leads people astray with a thousands upon thousands of lies invented daily…. Catholicism keeps people in unity all proclaiming the same united and unshakeable teachings for 2,000 years…. Sorry my friend but there is only ONE truth… there is no room for new versions of the truth, Jesus Christ already established HIS version of the truth 2,000 years ago.

your so easy to answer - i read the first sentence and nothing else - you are so repetitive and keep saying the same garbage over and over ... look stop putting words in to my mouth and just stick to the verses i place in front of you and respond only to what the bible says ... you are qouting tons of irrevelant stuff just to aguee... is that the holy spirit or something else?

any ways - just stick to the subject and dont assume or put words into the mix that i did not say... it show intelligence to stick to the point and to do so in the least amount of words...

[amcon]

yeah... this entire post was a waste of your time... I KNOW THE BIBLE IS GOOD TO READ, I KNOW TRUTH CAN BE FOUND IN THE SCRIPTURES... you are not arguing against me but WITH me... the issue is if God’s truth is ONLY found in the scriptures... I have shown you many verses which say that truth can be found BOTH in the teachings of Gods Church (and his appointed leaders) AND the scriptures... for example even the evil sinning scribes and Pharisees… that Jesus pretty much condemns to hell… what does he instruct the Jews to do regarding their TEACHINGS… “Observe and do whatever they tell you for they sit on the seat of Moses!!!!!!!!!! “but do not do as they do for they preach but do not practice”… in other words no matter how evil they had become, no matter how many sins they were committing , Jesus Christ himself told the Jews to follow WHATEVER they said!!! Because they wielded the same authority of Moses.. in that God would make sure what they taught was correct…. THAT is one (of many) specific quotes that prove that MEN CAN BE GIVEN AUTHORITY TO TEACH AND THAT GOD HIMSELF VOUCHES FOR THEIR TEACHINGS IN ADDITION TO THE TEACHINGS FOUND IN SCRIPTURE!!!!!! Where does it even say in the bible that there was a “seat of Moses” back in the Old Testament (a handing down of his authority)????? You see Jesus was even referring to something that wasn’t explicitly taught in the Old Testament as a TRUTH!!! And you claim that EVERYTHING is found in the bible????? Before Jesus came and cleared that up for us… the Jews lived for over a thousand years without having any verses to point to as it relates to this “seat of Moses” and yet for that entire time the existence of the “seat of Moses” and those who wielded his authority was most certainly was a reality of God’s religion….
Matt 23:1-3
23:1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3 ALL THEREFORE WHATSOEVER THEY BID YOU OBSERVE, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
KJV

that is a total made up thing that you are saying that God gives any one in the catholic church the special abilities over any other man to teach ... so should i call you a david coresh follower?? or any other silly occult? do you dance with snakes too ? or is that just for the chosen people in your church? (just making a point - you put words in my mouth that i did not say... and if i kept responding like i did above i would be lieing and misrepresenting the truth, as you are) so any ways... no body at the catholic church is an apostle or a chosen one or perfect - they all are sinners in need of grace from the Lord Jesus Christ... and if they think any different that that i would question their salvation... not that i could change that just that i would want to see them in heaven as well as my self...

by the way i will remind you that your long post are confusing and go off into so many "bunny trails" it is hard to follow... the info is understandable - except the parts that you post that are misconstruded from the bible with the incorrect meanings... but, i understand you are solely taught the bible from a man... shamfully -(i am taught the bible as well from men... just that #1 they have the correct bible, #2 they encurage us to read the bible and "search the scriptures" #3 they are not under some false satanic doctrine that says they are perfect like Jesus was... )

[amcon]

see short and sweet... simple, readable(lol - mostly), and to the point, ontrack, and not putting word in your mouth from my imagination... just good bible schooling - when im quoting the bible...

[amcon]

no feed back yet?

[BuffedGuy]

Derek, two questions:

1) Can you elaborate a bit on the Christian view towards intercession (including the Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Protestant views)? In specific, I am asking about praying to saints and the like.

2) Can you elaborate on the issue of accepting Christ as one's savior and all sins being forgiven? In specific, I am asking about how would a (Protestant) Christian respond to the allegation that such a belief causes people to become lax in their deeds, since--after all--sins are automatically forgiven? Once again, please elaborate on all three views (Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Protestant).

Thanks.

[BuffedGuy]

Bumpity bump!

[D7M]

Ah, such good questions!

I'm really busy tonight...will definitely get to them tomorrow.

I somehow think Amcon will jump in here, though I will add my thoughts to my thread shortly.

[xlxBigSexyxlx]

hey derek.

My brother and I were talking, and I said something like according to the bible, humans started here 6,000 years ago, yet there is evidence of say the Aborigines in Australia, who have been there for over 50,000 years.

And then he said something about the bible going by a different time span???? Meaning a year to us could of been thousands of years in the bible or something....

Whats the deal with that?

I guess that goes hand in hand with creating the world in 6 days. Also, did Moses and people ;live to be hundreds of years old?

I always thought that bible time was the same or close to our present day time. Am I missing something here, or is my brother wrong?

[rockinred]

hey derek.

My brother and I were talking, and I said something like according to the bible, humans started here 6,000 years ago, yet there is evidence of say the Aborigines in Australia, who have been there for over 50,000 years.

And then he said something about the bible going by a different time span???? Meaning a year to us could of been thousands of years in the bible or something....

Whats the deal with that?

I guess that goes hand in hand with creating the world in 6 days. Also, did Moses and people ;live to be hundreds of years old?

I always thought that bible time was the same or close to our present day time. Am I missing something here, or is my brother wrong?

this is directed to Derek, but let me jump in on this. I tried to refrain from these threads, but I have a hard time due to my own conviction and faith. Even though I consider myself a man of faith, I do try and explore things with an open mind and assume there is an answer for things. because a truth is a truth, right? Well there can be more to it, but that is how I see it also.

I am not too familiar with the evidence linking back 50,000 yrs. What we do know is that there are no written records of any civilization that goes back beyond the time frame you have written. Not in rock, not in anything. So what you have to do is trust or have faith in the dating process. Was it carbon dating? Carbon dating is effective, but it has been flawed many times too. Look up the incident of a frog that was allegedly dated back very far, yet it was actually very recent. It was done as an integrity test and all that you can assume from it was that you can't put all your eggs in that basket. So I will say that it is possible (50.000 yrs) right, but it is also possible to be an error too. You make your stance on what you want to do with it from there.

As far as moses times... there is a psalm that he wrote.. it is psalm 90. It addresses both of your questions a little. He states that man lives for 70-80yrs unless through some mightiness longer. Keep in mind this was written roughly 5,000 yrs ago. that tells me two things.. 1. man is not getting better with medicine and living any longer.. 2. that was the age that most died in that time.

In that psalm as a well as some other scriptures it talks about God being outside the limitations of time. In verse 4. t states, "For a thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night". To me that addresses more of how God is outside time constraints and there are also others that state thousand yrs is like 1day to God.

Many use this as a reference to say God built the Earth in 7,000 yrs or 70,000 yrs... correlating the day=1,000 yrs or 10,000. To me, well that can be true or if God is infinite in power, maybe he could have did it in a literal day.

There are many angles and perspectives. Personally the Bible doesn't really act as a scientific explanation and wasn't intended and doesn't even talk about those things. The bible does talk about the Earth being round and suspened in the air... wasn't recent belief that it was flat and dropped off...But, It is more about your inner salvation. Many things are spoken in parables and analogies... you cannot take it all literal. Even in Jesus' time they record that he went around and spoke in parables to keep things hidden from many. You can't find your way to God through intellectual intelligence... only through an open heart.

There are records of man living 100's of yrs in the early times, but who knows if they are literal or different. We will never find out for sure in our time. I also don't oppose that God created the Earth over a very long time through what is now considered an evolutionary process. These things we just won't know.

[xlxBigSexyxlx]

Thanks Red, as usual.

[quarry206]

what start out as something people could as logical questions and get answers in logical terms.. now has turned into a long battle over who has the better opinion... This thread has surely dropped to horrible quality. it has now become just a battle over who's church is more right...

the fact of the matter is you find your own faith and go with it. Don't read so much into a work of man and think there will be no errors. If somebody wanted to they could twist and quote the bible to say about anything they want.

[BJJ]

This thread is open, so I can ask a question to the OP without breaking any rules. At least I hope so.

D7M, How do you account for Josephus' account of the historical reality of Jesus?

[D7M]

This thread is open, so I can ask a question to the OP without breaking any rules. At least I hope so.

D7M, How do you account for Josephus' account of the historical reality of Jesus?

you're not breaking any rules.

religious threads get locked because some people lack the maturity and/or intellect to talk with civility about a topic like this.

so what about Josephus? All he said was there was a Jewish guy named Jesus that performed miracles.

on a certain low level apologetic his account may be useful. But that's it. It doesn't "prove" that Jesus existed, or more importantly, that the Christian's claim to Christ's deity are true.