Is Innocent Before Proven Guilty Another American Ideal Thats is Doomed.

**MuscleScience** · 04-22-2009, 08:10 PM

I watch like court talk show and news shows about currently crimes that are in the investigation phase. All these commentators jump on these cases about how blatantly guilty the subjects are. Nacy Gracy is the worst of the worst, I a can not stand her. The whole Duke Rape case was an example of her at her worst. She all but ruined there lives. She is not the only one it seems, the media is just so jumpy on all over these types of things that is sickening.

**mho** · 04-22-2009, 08:17 PM

Originally Posted by MuscleScience

I watch like court talk show and news shows about currently crimes that are in the investigation phase. All these commentators jump on these cases about how blatantly guilty the subjects are. Nacy Gracy is the worst of the worst, I a can not stand her. The whole Duke Rape case was an example of her at her worst. She all but ruined there lives. She is not the only one it seems, the media is just so jumpy on all over these types of things that is sickening.

The media has been out of control for some time now. It's to the point where I don't even watch the news anymore.

**Gaspari1255** · 04-22-2009, 08:18 PM

Originally Posted by MuscleScience

I watch like court talk show and news shows about currently crimes that are in the investigation phase. All these commentators jump on these cases about how blatantly guilty the subjects are. Nacy Gracy is the worst of the worst, I a can not stand her. The whole Duke Rape case was an example of her at her worst. She all but ruined there lives. She is not the only one it seems, the media is just so jumpy on all over these types of things that is sickening.

Nacy is some j.o. who is always looking to point the finger at some what, trying to make herself look superior.

**vpchill** · 04-22-2009, 08:21 PM

There is NO SUCH THING as innocent until ptovem guilty. Otherwise you wouldnt be stuck behind bars while they gather evidence to convict you. Nor would you be ridiculed by public opinion as to your guilt. The system only works for those with the monetary means to pay for proper justice.

**strength_addict14** · 04-22-2009, 08:22 PM

If there is no news these people are minus a job... hence the creation of a story.... if people didn't buy bullcrap then why are tele-evangelist so rich.....big buisness bro.

**vpchill** · 04-22-2009, 08:34 PM

Originally Posted by strength_addict14

If there is no news these people are minus a job... hence the creation of a story.... if people didn't buy bullcrap then why are tele-evangelist so rich.....big buisness bro.

Of course, Look at fake gear and all these BS Suppliments. If people believe it they will listen and follow.
Its all Crap. People find somthing to believe in and they forget reason.

**MuscleScience** · 04-22-2009, 08:41 PM

Originally Posted by vpchill

There is NO SUCH THING as innocent until ptovem guilty. Otherwise you wouldnt be stuck behind bars while they gather evidence to convict you. Nor would you be ridiculed by public opinion as to your guilt. The system only works for those with the monetary means to pay for proper justice.

I guess I have a really problem with what you mean. The whole premise of our Justice system is that a person has to be proven guilty in a court of law under due process. As such a trial is the governments way of presenting an argument based on collected evidence and presenting it to a none-biased jury of the alleged perpurtrator of the crime. There for why should someone be treated as a criminal by the media or general public. When in fact the potential population of jury members is tainted from the get go. Case in point, the witch hunt that after the Atlanta Olympic Games bombing. The FBI investigate Richard Jewell and "leaked" his name to the public. It ruined his life because of media scrutiny. As it turned out he had nothing to do with the bombing and eventually the real criminal was found and prosecuted, Eric Robert Rudolph.

I mean I guess we could always go back to mob lynchings in town squares for alleged horse thieves.

**strength_addict14** · 04-22-2009, 08:48 PM

Originally Posted by MuscleScience

I guess I have a really problem with what you mean. The whole premise of our Justice system is that a person has to be proven guilty in a court of law under due process. As such a trial is the governments way of presenting an argument based on collected evidence and presenting it to a none-biased jury of the alleged perpurtrator of the crime. There for why should someone be treated as a criminal by the media or general public. When in fact the potential population of jury members is tainted from the get go. Case in point, the witch hunt that after the Atlanta Olympic Games bombing. The FBI investigate Richard Jewell and "leaked" his name to the public. It ruined his life because of media scrutiny. As it turned out he had nothing to do with the bombing and eventually the real criminal was found and prosecuted, Eric Robert Rudolph.

I mean I guess we could always go back to mob lynchings in town squares for alleged horse thieves.

Most jury members are frothing at the mouth to yell guilty.... because the honest born to be good police man says the defendant is a baaaaaad person. Life isn't fair.... if fair is even a real word anymore.

**vpchill** · 04-22-2009, 09:00 PM

Perfect!! When you go before a Judge he is given what the Police charged you with. They can write down that you raped a 4 yr old boy when you were really arrested for drugs or a gun.
That stays with you for life, In background checks and so on. Do the science, Background checks (80%) show your original precint charges. Not the actual trial charge nor the conviction.
You can be screwed over a typo from ever getting a Real Job.
The system is Guilty until you prove yourself innocent.

Why would there be plea bargains? This is to extradite you faster without jury trial. saving time and money. Meanwhile if you think the deal is great, You still lose

**vpchill** · 04-22-2009, 09:05 PM

Originally Posted by MuscleScience

I guess I have a really problem with what you mean. The whole premise of our Justice system is that a person has to be proven guilty in a court of law under due process. As such a trial is the governments way of presenting an argument based on collected evidence and presenting it to a none-biased jury of the alleged perpurtrator of the crime. There for why should someone be treated as a criminal by the media or general public. When in fact the potential population of jury members is tainted from the get go. Case in point, the witch hunt that after the Atlanta Olympic Games bombing. The FBI investigate Richard Jewell and "leaked" his name to the public. It ruined his life because of media scrutiny. As it turned out he had nothing to do with the bombing and eventually the real criminal was found and prosecuted, Eric Robert Rudolph.

I mean I guess we could always go back to mob lynchings in town squares for alleged horse thieves.

Thats folklore. I know what the constitution says, But go into the prisons and see if those same principles were applied to Each person being created equal. There are too many people prosecuted falsey and screwed over.
A very good friend of mine did 16 Years for a Murder he didnt commit. He gets released after many appeals and New trial found out the Detective held back evidence. This detective wanted to close the case and be done. sending my boy away and losing 16 years out of his life.. He is now 42. He lost 16 years for nothing. Meanwhile this detective is now retired off a captains pension.. he enjoyed his 16 years. There is No Justice.

**BgMc31** · 04-22-2009, 09:16 PM

That principle is only applied to rich people. Twenty years ago I would have said it only applied to rich, white, people, but I've seen poor whites screwed over by the judicial system almost (but not quite) as minorities!!

Cash
R ules
Everything
Around
Me

It almost doesn't matter anymore about race (even though minorities are wrongfully convicted twice as often as whites: http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/351.php)it's all about who can afford the best attorneys.

**vpchill** · 04-22-2009, 09:19 PM

Originally Posted by BgMc31

That principle is only applied to rich people. Twenty years ago I would have said it only applied to rich, white, people, but I've seen poor whites screwed over by the judicial system almost (but not quite) as minorities!!

Cash
R ules
Everything
Around
Me

It almost doesn't matter anymore about race (even though minorities are wrongfully convicted twice as often as whites: http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/351.php)it's all about who can afford the best attorneys.

If you dont know ^^^^ Now you know!!

**Ernst** · 04-22-2009, 11:51 PM

12 people who are too stupid to get out of jury duty aren't my peers.

Our justice system is Fu¢ked with a capital F. Anyone who has ever gone through it can tell you that.

**vpchill** · 04-23-2009, 04:58 AM

100% Agreed, Wish I was awake when you sent that. I would have applauded

**Mooseman33** · 04-23-2009, 09:21 AM

i do agree with most but will say i like nancy grace....she goes after people, maybe cause what she went thru personaly, however i can see where alot of people dont like her...

me, i love her, she is slamming this POS tot mom....

**scerpico22** · 04-23-2009, 09:29 AM

**Reed** · 04-23-2009, 10:13 AM

Yep its doomed....

but i think we all been guilty at one point or another to blame someone before getting the facts straight

**Flagg** · 04-23-2009, 10:17 AM

Originally Posted by MuscleScience

I watch like court talk show and news shows about currently crimes that are in the investigation phase. All these commentators jump on these cases about how blatantly guilty the subjects are. Nacy Gracy is the worst of the worst, I a can not stand her. The whole Duke Rape case was an example of her at her worst. She all but ruined there lives. She is not the only one it seems, the media is just so jumpy on all over these types of things that is sickening.

Being in the UK i bought the newspaper today, only to check out our budget plan this year, but other than that i've stopped buying papers. Im sick of the sensationalistic shit that the Media gets away with these days. If it's in the paper or on the TV, you can be sure that someone is guilty until proven innocent.

**vpchill** · 04-23-2009, 10:22 AM

Originally Posted by Reed

Yep its doomed....

but i think we all been guilty at one point or another to blame someone before getting the facts straight

I agree, But does that Doom you to live a Guilty Life? Are you to stay persecuted and prosecuted just because of mistakes?

**Dukkit** · 04-23-2009, 10:22 AM

i can tell you first hand that the idea of INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY is bullshit

ive been locked up way too many times and during those bids i have met way too many ppl, ordinary joes that got into a bad situation, that the law completely shit on them and didnt even give them a chance to tell their story. not everything is black and white... its 2009... thats a fact of life.

especially if your already on probation. lets say your on probation for a stupid thing like someone starts a fight with you while they were drunk and you were out with your girl. they hit you. you hit them. but you do more damage so you get a simple assault charge.... go to court.... get 3 years probation

now lets say something else stupid happens within those 3 years... doesnt matter what. but something that you didnt actually cause or do anything illegal. like another instance where someone starts shit or whatnot. but since your the one already on probation... your the one automatically getting locked up. no chance to get bail. no chance for anything. your on probation. you get locked up

how is that innocent before proven guilty

its like the law says that once your proven guilty... and go to jail or even get a simple probation... YOUR ALWAYS guilty

ive been on parole/probation for 4 years and have 2 more to go....

i have to watch my back everyday so that i dont get sucked into someone elses bad day... which gets me locked back up

**vpchill** · 04-23-2009, 10:40 AM

Dukkit I feel your pain. The system is meant for you to Fail. Ive been in the same predicament. Once you on paper, they push you to the bottom. They dont want you to succeed.

**Dukkit** · 04-23-2009, 10:46 AM

Originally Posted by vpchill

Dukkit I feel your pain. The system is meant for you to Fail. Ive been in the same predicament. Once you on paper, they push you to the bottom. They dont want you to succeed.

exactly

once you commit a crime... your stuck

i cant get student loans. i cant vote. i cant get any decent jobs

how is someone supposed to change their life for the better once they get out of jail if the government stipulates that since we are "ex-cons" we are now beneath the idea of living a decent life??

im scared to start a family cuz i dont know if ill ever be able to get a good enough job where i feel comfortable providing for a child, wife and myself.

i havent been in legal trouble in a long time. i have completely changed my life. gotten away from bad ppl and things. gotten in closer touch with my family. got an okay respectable job. my life is spent on my diet. training and close friends.

but i cant really further my life in such a way that i would like to

**vpchill** · 04-23-2009, 10:48 AM

Man that student Loan Crap is outrageous!! So Basically, I mess up and want to correct my Life? But because I have a specific felony I have to pay for my own schooling? WTF? The reason I may have done illegal activities is because I was broke!! Who did the math on those laws?

**Dukkit** · 04-23-2009, 10:52 AM

Originally Posted by vpchill

Man that student Loan Crap is outrageous!! So Basically, I mess up and want to correct my Life? But because I have a specific felony I have to pay for my own schooling? WTF? The reason I may have done illegal activities is because I was broke!! Who did the math on those laws?

yes sir

doesnt make sense. i think they would want us to be able to go back to school. to further our education/jobs so that we get away from trouble.

but nope.. complete oppisite. they hold us down even harder

**vpchill** · 04-23-2009, 10:55 AM

It always boggled my mind. You want me to reform but you wont give me the tools to make myself better? Ive never seen a Jail or Prison make anybody a Nicer Person nor Fix their situation for the Better.
I would LOVE to go to college, Love to get a chance to compete with a degree. i cant afford to go to college and feed my kids. Its impossible.

**Dukkit** · 04-23-2009, 10:58 AM

there were a few programs while i was locked up that would try and help you out with jobs and finding schooling

but it was shitty jobs and schooling for stuff like carpentry

nothing that i was interested in.

**vpchill** · 04-23-2009, 11:05 AM

Originally Posted by dukkitdalaw

there were a few programs while i was locked up that would try and help you out with jobs and finding schooling

but it was shitty jobs and schooling for stuff like carpentry

nothing that i was interested in.

Yea, Same old story. They gon give Cat food to a Dog and expect him to grow.. wtf

**SnaX** · 04-25-2009, 02:13 PM

Just being on the stand is 'Strike One', whether or not you did anything.

This may be one of the most useful videos to you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik

**vpchill** · 04-25-2009, 02:45 PM

Oh Of course. Mouth Shut, Chin High!!

Wish everyone would check that out

**MuscleScience** · 04-25-2009, 03:45 PM

Originally Posted by Flagg

Being in the UK i bought the newspaper today, only to check out our budget plan this year, but other than that i've stopped buying papers. Im sick of the sensationalistic shit that the Media gets away with these days. If it's in the paper or on the TV, you can be sure that someone is guilty until proven innocent.

Thats spot on bro, I couldnt agree more!!!

**CSAR** · 04-25-2009, 04:05 PM

Wow, the things that have happened to some of you guys and is still happening is just wrong.

Without elaborating too much, during my undergraduate years, I didn't tell on my coworker who was stealing from the hotel where we were working at. He got caught, told the boss that I knew about his activities, and the boss (who was good friends with the DA) got me charged as an accessory to grand theft and burglary in the 1st. My coworker conveniently left out the part where I gave him a chance to stop or I'd report him. Long story, short - I had to pay $6K within a year to get the charges dropped.

Anyhow, my sad little story pales in comparison to you guys.